Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

[John Horvath]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

..at Namm 2014 we will be showing very exciting new members of the X32 family.

Warm regards

Uli

Personally, I'm hoping for an X48, or basically a larger brother to the X32. Uses at least 3x S16 boxes, larger screen, two layers of 24 inputs (ala 5D), more EQ & aux knobs, 16 aux/8 matrix (ala Pro1/2). The list can go on, BUT only to a point of a MAP price of around $6K or $7K. Currently, there is nothing worthy between the X32 and Pro1. I'm finding A LOT of churches willing to spend more than $3K on the X32 because they need more inputs & features, but the Pro1 is either too limited with faders & knobs, too expensive, or both.

A large majority of my shows require more than the X32, but not more than my Pro2C. Do I need to meet riders with the Midas name? Nope, not at all. That said, an X48 or similar would be perfect, so much so that I would sell my Pro2C and buy two X48's as fast as I possibly could.

 

[Anssi Tenhunen]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Dear Annsi,

My name is Par Olsson and I am the COO/General Manager of Luthman SMTTS (INTO Luthman).
I am suprised about your comment that you find it difficult to find dealers in Finland selleing the Behringer products as sales there is going through the roof.
Below you will find a list of current re-sellers in Finland that should be able to help you:

[TABLE="width: 362"]
[TR]
[TD]St. Paul's Sound Oy[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Top Sound Ky
[/TD]
[TD]Seinäjoki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]DJ Pro SIA
[/TD]
[TD]Daugavpils[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]EW Sound & Light OU[/TD]
[TD]Tallinn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Savonlinnan Soitinkulma Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Savonlinna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teleme Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Lappeenranta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Powerset Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Tampere[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kouvolan Musiikki Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Kouvola[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Markun Musiikki Ky
[/TD]
[TD]Seinäjoki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Soitin Laine Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Turku[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kokkolan laitevälitys Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Kokkola[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maxisat Networks Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sähkötaso esitystekniikka Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Tampere[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]DLX Deluxe Music Shops Oy/Helsinki[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MKS media T:mi
[/TD]
[TD]Loimaa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stanford Music
[/TD]
[TD]Tallinn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aurinkomusiikki Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Tampere[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pihlajamaan Musiikki Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Pori[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pori Sound City Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Pori[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Soundstore Finland Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Musacorner Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Tampere[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Musiikki Kullas Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Oulu[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Verkkokauppa.com Oy[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Raahen Musiikki T:mi
[/TD]
[TD]Raahe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Starlike Oy[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stroko Oy/Piano Jylhä
[/TD]
[TD]Muurame[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Discoland Oy
[/TD]
[TD]Helsinki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]F-Musiikki Oy Turku
[/TD]
[TD]Turku[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pietarsaaren Musiikki Ky
[/TD]
[TD]Pietarsaari[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ålands Music Shop
[/TD]
[TD]Mariehamn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Suomen esityspalvelu Ky
[/TD]
[TD]Salo[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

If you still find it difficult sourcing Behringer products please feel free to contact me at any time: [email protected]

Best Regards

Par Olsson

Hello Par,

First of all of those are NOT re-sellers in Finland, as Daugavpils is in Latvia and Tallinn is in Estonia. And St Pauls Sound is not even in Helsinki - it's in Vihti, a small town about an hours drive away from Helsinki.

I currently live in Jyväskylä, and there is no retailer here. It is one of the biggest student cities in the country (over 25% of the population here is students), and I know that most students here don't own a car. Mostly everyone uses a bike, local bus or walks here, and I know that I am very similar to most students, and have have ZERO need to go to Muurame, a small town with a population of just over 9,000 compared to over 130,000 population in Jyväskylä (and the Muurame place's selection was limited at best, only 14 Behringer products on their webstore). And next closest option is over 150km away in Tampere.

edit: Also to clarify: Verkkokauppa.com, that is one of the biggest electronics retailers in Finland, has exactly TWO(2) Behringer products in their shop. and F-musiikki only had ONE(1) Behringer product on their webshop. These do not even list Behringer on their website:

Teleme
Kouvolan Musiikki
Markun Musiikki
Sähkötaso esitystekniikka
Aurinkomusiikki
Starlike
Pietarsaaren Musiikki
Ålands Music Shop
Suomen Esityspalvelut

Also it seems Soundstore is going out of business, there is a "store closeout sale" on their website.

Also it doesn't help that they for example list Behringer Vintage Time Machine pedal for 70€ when at Thomann it is 55€


So yes, I still find it difficult finding Behringer products in the seventh largest city in Finland.

 

[drew gandy]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Uli,

What was the fan noise SPL before and after it was reduced?
What was the air flow rate before and after it was reduced?

Art

Art, Behringer seems to be equally silent concerning my questions (in the reviews forum) about the noise floor of the inuke dsp 6000 amp. Maybe they need another week?

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

Where to buy products

Hello

Anssi was complaining about how hard it is, that entire Behringer product line is not available in his current town.

I used to work at Berns Music Store in Bloomington - Twin City area MN USA - some twenty years ago. So I have little inside information of how things were then and might still be today. We had about 700 electric and acoustic guitars in stock - almost all possible brands plus some "impossible" brands ( like Bunker ) - still we were constantly making special orders for customers, who did not find exactly the model they were looking for. Same thing with near 100 guitar amps and 50 sets of drums.

To keep customers like Anssi happy, we would have had to stock three-four times more - horrible amount of money tied into equipment, that may or may not sell - ever !!! Plus there should be knoledgeable personnell running the store in order to answer all possible and impossible questions about every detail of every piece of gear in stock. All this would eat the profits, so prices could not be cheap/low.

When I was shopping for a new small digital console about year and a half ago - just before I bumped into X32-discusson on this forum - I had my eyes laid on Presonus Studiolive 16.0.2 - there were some dealers around - nobody had it in stock - and none of the salespersons knew virtually nothing about it - "We can order one for you at this price - it is a good little desk" With information and service like that I can go right ahead and find best deal within EU and have it delivered to my home for free - with good luck with better help from the store.

Now as many of you know - I ended ordering X32 from Thomann - and now a year later I have X32R - also from Thomann.

If I should be so unfortunate, that one of those desks would have a problem big enough, that I should send it to Thomann for warranty, it would actually be no different, than having bought the board from local store. Bring it to post-office or bring it to store - that´s it !!

A customer of mine had problems with his Fender Bass combo - I delivered it to local store, who sent it to Sweden for Luthman to be repaired. It took some weeks to come back. So timewise there is no real difference in repair service - but I would have to pay the freight, if I sent my unit to Thomann. Then again - I got it at such a good price, that even if I sent it back a few times, I would still be on top.

All this jargon is to help Anssi and some others to understand, that it is for every single musicstore to decide, what they keep in stock and what not - no manufacturer can affect that - at Berns Music we had some strange stuff ( in my opinion ) but Jim knew what he was doing, and all that stuff was selling, too. The point is - he knew his clientele ...

I am having trouble understanding Anssi complaining about not wanting to travel all the way to Tampere - a whopping 150km - to get his X32 and having it sent to him to Jyväskylä - he does not HAVE to come to Tampere - I am quite sure he has telephone, and so does every musicstore in this country. On the other hand - he is keeping a blog, where I read he was in New York shopping stuff in pawnshops. So - one side of him would like to stay at home and have world come to his doorstep - the other side is man of the world.


Lesson of story ??

We all have to consider all angels - what suites someone, might not be good for other.

Peace

 

[Anssi Tenhunen]

Re: Where to buy products

I am having trouble understanding Anssi complaining about not wanting to travel all the way to Tampere - a whopping 150km - to get his X32 and having it sent to him to Jyväskylä

Thanks for googling me. You do that to every random person on the internet?

But who said anything that I was getting an X32, or even interested in it? I never said that. I know I can order one without even seeing one, but I don't want to do that. If you would've read the original post I wrote, I listed Trirec, T1 and T47 as examples of items that I was interested in, but for example I would not buy anything blindly worth over 500€ (like for example a guitar amp or a mixer), I want to try them/it first just to get a feel how they perform or even if I even like how they sound. Since I didn't have access to Trirec, I got an used Mesa Dual Rectifier some time ago instead, and I've been happy with it.

It's more likely that I would buy Midas Venice F32 than X32 just for live use, because I started mixing with Midas Venice 320 a bit over 10 years ago, and I really like how it sounded but since I also want to use a desk for recording, I want to test both first, because I want to test how small the round trip DAW latency is with the drivers when recording with the F32 and how does the routing back from the computer works, so can I overdub with them or if I even can overdub with them.

For example about 5-7 years ago my local church at the time had a youth cafe where I was the "house engineer" and they had a Midas Venice 320 console and they wanted to "upgrade" for same thing - live and recording. We went to demo the Tascam DM4800, and the computer crashed during the recording demo, the desk itself sounded really sterile in a bad way and I totally didn't like how the console operated. I recommended to the church guy not to get it, but despite my warnings, about two weeks later, they had it. And pretty much none of the sound engineers that visited the place liked the desk during the 2 years that I was there before I moved, and as far as I know, there has only been one "studio recording" made with that desk in it's entire lifespan. Yamaha LS9 on the other hand was really easy use and to get hold of from the very first time I used it on a venue in Rovaniemi on my first tour as FOH engineer back in 2006-2007. If it would've had the multitrack recording option, I would've recommended them to get that instead.

That's also the reason why I'm hesitating buying either one of F32 or X32, because I know that the F32 would definitely fill my needs as a live console, but not entirely sure as a recording console, and I don't know how X32 behaves or sounds as I've never tested one. I would feel terrible to ask something worth several thousand euros to the local music shop "just to test it" and then possibly not even buy it. So I would literally have to travel to a place that has them in stock to test either of them out, and I if I have a choice, I really don't prefer to travel for several hundred kilometers just to go test stuff out. And traveling to Tampere is not just 150km, but 300km, as I'm not planning to stay there.

All this jargon is to help Anssi and some others to understand, that it is for every single musicstore to decide, what they keep in stock and what not

If Into Luthmann had a shop in Finland, you'd would think they had most of the represented catalog they have for sale in stock. That's also why I mentioned it in my original post that they don't have one in Finland.

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: Where to buy products

And traveling to Tampere is not just 150km, but 300km, as I'm not planning to stay there.

But, but..... Tampere is a nice place to stay. And you can probably grab a beer with Timo at the same time

If Into Luthmann had a shop in Finland, you'd would think they had most of the represented catalog they have for sale in stock. That's also why I mentioned it in my original post that they don't have one in Finland.

As noted before luthman is a distributor and not a dealer. It is up to the dealer what stuff they want to have in stock...

Any dealer can get all the stuff from their distributors and if the dealer is big enough they will be able to order some preview unit and send it back after evaluation. My big dealers that I frequent alot, dlxmusic and 4sound-estrad/slagverket in stockholm, have no problems getting stuff for preview for stuff usually not in stock.

A Finnish friend of mine who lives deep into the Finnish woods and likes doing some music at times have no problem running around Finland finding and trying stuff all the time.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Where to buy products

Mixed on an Venice. F a few months ago. I own an X 32. Knobs on the Venice were really small and I wanted more busses. I love the X32 for live and live recording via FW. I needed a lot of outboard with the Venice.

 

[Noah Katz]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Hello Uli,

First, thanks for coming and I must say my level of respect for Behringer is vastly increased (it includes a sign change), and I'm relieved to know I didn't buy IP stolen from Peavey.

...we also reduced the fan noise of the iNuke amplifiers

I bought an inuke 6000DSP in the beginning of May; would it have the new fans?

If so, they're still way too noisy for my application, which is for home theater subwoofers.

Is the warranty voided if I replace the fans with quieter ones?

Just as an FYI, I had a Peavey ipr3000 and when I told them my application they said I would honor the warranty if I changed them.

Also, I was unaware that I needed to register to get the 3-yr warranty (actually the amp is still in its box as I haven't finished rebuilding my home theater); is there any way I could still get it?

Also I went to Behringer - Thomann UK and don't see the failure rate number; can you point me to where I could find it?

I'm interested in seeing how the other mfgr's are doing.

Thanks very much

 

[Antoon van den Oetelaar]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

The current Earth Wind & Fire World Tour have added an X32 and 7 P16-M personal mixers.

I woud expect them to use midas as a minimum...

 

[deon subroyan]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Hi Uli

My faith in your amplifiers is presently at bare minimum. I have been installing Behringer amps at venues for a few years and i have had numerous complaints from customers regarding amps failing. I have in my possession 1x inuke dsp 6000 (blew at a nightclub last night), 2x EP2500 (4 weeks ago), 1x EP1500 (2 weeks ago). The inuke setup included 2x 300watt tops and 1x 400watt sub, most of the other setups are similar with the inclusion of equalisers with sub outs. All the EP amplifiers have been repaired at least twice from date of purchase (warranties have since expired ), the inuke was repaired once. Faults varied from power supply to output channels. These amps have never been used above required operating conditions and have been serviced once every two months (filters cleaned, dust removed). Surprisingly, two installations using Hybrid amplifiers with identical setups have never given up. Do I continue using your product in future installs or switch to more reliable products? What do I do with the existing faulty amplifiers? repair them at my cost and hope for the best?

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Dear Deon,

Sorry to hear about your experience.

However, this is not typical and especially with the EP Series, as they have one of the lowest failure rates in the industry which you can easily Google. While the EP1500/2500 have been discontinued for approximately 4 years and replaced by the EP2000/4000, they are among best selling and most reliable amps in the market. This also goes for the NU6000, after we fixed an initial diode problem, which might also be the issue with your amp.

It is difficult to say what is exactly the problem, but perhaps your earlier repairs were not done correctly. Since we do not service products in South Africa, as this is the distributor's responsibility, we suggest you contact Tedelex directly. If you need some support, please PM me and I will assist you.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Joe, where can I google to find comparative reliability of different brands of sound reinforcement power amps, I tried a few different search terms in google and didn't find anything.

IIRC Uli has mentioned some data from a major european dealer(?).

I would find some comprehensive comparison data from an objective source informative.

JR

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Dear JR,

My apologies if I was not clear. When you Google EP amps, you will hardly find any issues with these amps and we have been producing hundreds of thousands of them. In fact, we have been selling them for close to 10 years and they have become the industry standard based on MI Sales Track. We encourage everyone to check with major retailers, and you will get the same positive feedback.


Thomann, the biggest European retailer, used to publish failure rates of all manufacturers, however, those stats have been temporarily removed as they changed systems. As I recall, we were last listed at 0.54% when I checked approximately a year ago, which was in line with the best companies. I guess we will have to wait for their system to be up again to check the data.

Again, you might want to check with GC, Sweetwater, etc., to get some independent feedback.

 

[Par Olsson]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Hello Par,

First of all of those are NOT re-sellers in Finland, as Daugavpils is in Latvia and Tallinn is in Estonia. And St Pauls Sound is not even in Helsinki - it's in Vihti, a small town about an hours drive away from Helsinki.

I currently live in Jyväskylä, and there is no retailer here. It is one of the biggest student cities in the country (over 25% of the population here is students), and I know that most students here don't own a car. Mostly everyone uses a bike, local bus or walks here, and I know that I am very similar to most students, and have have ZERO need to go to Muurame, a small town with a population of just over 9,000 compared to over 130,000 population in Jyväskylä (and the Muurame place's selection was limited at best, only 14 Behringer products on their webstore). And next closest option is over 150km away in Tampere.

edit: Also to clarify: Verkkokauppa.com, that is one of the biggest electronics retailers in Finland, has exactly TWO(2) Behringer products in their shop. and F-musiikki only had ONE(1) Behringer product on their webshop. These do not even list Behringer on their website:

Teleme
Kouvolan Musiikki
Markun Musiikki
Sähkötaso esitystekniikka
Aurinkomusiikki
Starlike
Pietarsaaren Musiikki
Ålands Music Shop
Suomen Esityspalvelut

Also it seems Soundstore is going out of business, there is a "store closeout sale" on their website.

Also it doesn't help that they for example list Behringer Vintage Time Machine pedal for 70€ when at Thomann it is 55€


So yes, I still find it difficult finding Behringer products in the seventh largest city in Finland.

Dear Annsi,

I am sorry to hear that you still are having a hard time finding Behringer products in you local town. If you contact my collegue at the Finnish INTO-Luthman office ,Peter Sanden, he will be able to help you in more detail where to find the products you are interested in and help out if you have any other issues.
Peters email address is: [email protected]

Best regards

Pär Olsson

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Dear JR,

My apologies if I was not clear. When you Google EP amps, you will hardly find any issues with these amps and we have been producing hundreds of thousands of them. In fact, we have been selling them for close to 10 years and they have become the industry standard based on MI Sales Track. We encourage everyone to check with major retailers, and you will get the same positive feedback.


Thomann, the biggest European retailer, used to publish failure rates of all manufacturers, however, those stats have been temporarily removed as they changed systems. As I recall, we were last listed at 0.54% when I checked approximately a year ago, which was in line with the best companies. I guess we will have to wait for their system to be up again to check the data.

Again, you might want to check with GC, Sweetwater, etc., to get some independent feedback.

Thanks for the clarification... I actually worked in the industry for years and would have found such a data base very useful if it existed. AFAIK most (all?) manufacturers in this industry did not routinely publish such data. A high sales volume dealer's data base may be somewhat representative at least for the brands they sell.


JR

 

[Noah Katz]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Amplifiers as a whole are crap today, because power is a commodity, companies are not honest with their specs, and customers are so uneducated. It is a race to the bottom. Yeah, you can buy a 4k watt amplifier for $299. That is 10% distortion, can't control the woofer cone much, can't reproduce 1/16 note speed metal kick drums and bass guitar, and it will not work if the power sags below a constant, clean 110V...but hey, it's 4k watts.

Your statement contradicts measurements and user experiences, at least with the inuke 6000, whose measured power is given in the third post about 3/4 of the way down the first page here:

Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1

It didn't quite make spec, but pretty close.

In some respects these amps are worked harder in home theater than pro use, as many of us have multiple subs requiring lots of power in the 10 -20 Hz octave, though not for extended periods.

 

[Noah Katz]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Thinking about the warranty/fan issue, I don't see on what basis the warranty would be voided, because with less airflow, or even none at all, the thermal protection should shut the amp down.

So unless you don't believe in its effectiveness, on what basis would warranty coverage be denied?

Thanks

Hello Uli,

First, thanks for coming and I must say my level of respect for Behringer is vastly increased (it includes a sign change), and I'm relieved to know I didn't buy IP stolen from Peavey.



I bought an inuke 6000DSP in the beginning of May; would it have the new fans?

If so, they're still way too noisy for my application, which is for home theater subwoofers.

Is the warranty voided if I replace the fans with quieter ones?

Just as an FYI, I had a Peavey ipr3000 and when I told them my application they said I would honor the warranty if I changed them.

Also, I was unaware that I needed to register to get the 3-yr warranty (actually the amp is still in its box as I haven't finished rebuilding my home theater); is there any way I could still get it?

Also I went to Behringer - Thomann UK and don't see the failure rate number; can you point me to where I could find it?

I'm interested in seeing how the other mfgr's are doing.

Thanks very much

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Thinking about the warranty/fan issue, I don't see on what basis the warranty would be voided, because with less airflow, or even none at all, the thermal protection should shut the amp down.

So unless you don't believe in its effectiveness, on what basis would warranty coverage be denied?

Thanks

If you modify the equipment, of course the warranty is voided!

An approved modification by an approved service facility is of course another matter, such things are often covered by manufacturers.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Thinking about the warranty/fan issue, I don't see on what basis the warranty would be voided, because with less airflow, or even none at all, the thermal protection should shut the amp down.

So unless you don't believe in its effectiveness, on what basis would warranty coverage be denied?

Thanks

Warranty coverage generally does not allow customers to open up a unit and muck around inside. UL frowns on that too. How can you tell an original build problem from something the customer did while messing around inside? Changing to a different model fan no matter what your mental rationalization is, changes the design. It "should" not cause the amp to fail, but I can't say that confidently without studying the design.

I would generally not void a warranty if the customer replaced the fan with one that works even better, but those units don't end up in the service dept to be repaired. If the customer precipitated the failure by something they did they deserve to pay.

I have heard anecdotes about customers changing the direction of amplifier fan air flow, thinking that it doesn't make a difference to the amp (it does). Second guessing the amp designer may be good sport, but could void your warranty.

JR

 

[Noah Katz]

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32

Fair points, though as I said, Peavey will honor it w/fan mod.