X32 Discussion

[Mick Berg]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Folks, if you are starting a new subject, please use an appropriate title for your post, dont just Re: to the last one. We now have two completely irrelevant discussions under the title "How to do an analog insert".

Anyway, thanks for all the input. I agree, I would not use this mixer for a show with sixteen channels of Dugan automixing. Especially as there is no post-fade insert point and that is needed for proper Dugan usage.

I think six channels of analog insert is quite adequate for a mixer with all compression, eq and effects already on board, and this will become even more so as de-essers and other plugins are added. Well done Behringer to provide this.

One of my questions has not been answered; do the insert returns appear on the Aux in channels as well as the insert return points? This would not be a huge deal, but would be somewhat inelegant. I wish I had a physical X32 so I could answer all these questions for myself!~:-(~:sad:

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

 

[Mick Berg]

Request for a change in XControl

I would like to see a different graphic for pre-fader as opposed to post-fader aux sends in the "sends" (wrong..........see edit) section of the Home screen. At the moment they are the same, so you can't tell quickly if you have set up your aux busses correctly.

And, if it's the same on the actual X32, the change should be made there as well.

EDIT: Correction! I am describing the wrong thing!!! I mean the "Bus Sends" section on the far right of the Home Screen.
Sorry about that.
:blush:
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

 

[Steve Maksim]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Removal of the USB stick or powering down before the end of file marker is recorded is the usual culprit, but I don't know enough about how Behringer does the file handling to claim this as certain causality.

This should be pretty easy to determine. Zero out a thumb drive, demonstrate the problem again, and then use a raw bit read, like a data recovery tool, to see what's there.

Funny story: I did some file recovery back in the late 90's for a friend whose disk had crashed. I was able to get most of her mp3 collection back, but because of file system segmentation some of the songs had pieces of other songs spliced into them. There were some humorous combinations.

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Now, forgive me for being absolutely ignorant, but what kind of live automixing scenario is there that can't be solved by gating and compressing individual channels plus groups. While I certainly understand the difference between compressing and automatic gain riding, once you set the compressor to quite long times ( the X32 compressor can be quite sluggish at 120mS attack, 2 S hold and 4 S release), and for the play we did last week-end, I found it quite usefull to just replicate what I've done before with the actors earset mikes being open all the time and just gating and soft-knee comping. Given the extra capabilities now at hand, I'm thinking maybe expanding at the input channels and compressing the group channels to get closer to a level control of sorts, or would that be counter-productive?

As I understand it, the Dugan mixer keeps the total gain constant by reducing the gain depending on how many mics are open. I don't think your scheme does that, does it?

In practise, the Dugan mixer does such a great job that I would be very wary of trying any other method of controlling multiple mics.

Mick Berg.

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Greetings ..
I am following this thread, and I have also had many problems in the recording studio environment .. Noise clips, panel buffer incomprehensible, complex routing configuration ..
Etc etc. .. I'm concluding that the X32 is not a decent mixer for recording ..
Now he has a new problem .. as recording MIDI from an external keyboard or other MIDI instrument???
X32 is a live sound mixer
X32 NOT used for recording studio~:-(~:sad:

Hi,

The X32 is actually very well suited for studio applications.

I have extensive experience using the X32 with great success with ProTools and Logic on a Mac, and Reaper on the PC format - Full 32 in and 32 out and control surface functions.

If you are on a PC platform there are many parameters outside of the X32 such as PC OS, hardware etc.

I think we all need to remember that getting 32 inputs and 32 outputs, in and out of a computer, was not so easy.... six months ago.
You need a fast computer, Firewire or USB 2.0 at a minimum, and a correctly configured PC.

Let me know if I can help out at all.

Best
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Latency of the desk in generating and sending out meter information was also a ploblem that killed off that programmer's effort.

I can see three opportunities to get an auto mix solution working.

1. Read the osc meter parameters and send back osc to control levels.
2. Analyse channels (on laptop via USB out) and send back osc for control
3. Analyse channels (on laptop via USB) and send back audio via USB (an auto mixer insert)
4. Put enough requests into Behringer that they do it. I would suggest a custom auto mix VCA group that channels can be added to that attenuates the channels independently and automatically but also uses the fader as a master. Channels can be added and subtracted as is done for every other vca.

If I get the time I might experiment with options 1 and 2.

Alan

I'm already looking into #1.

The osc-level has a slight problem. It is a snapshot per 50mS, i.e. not sampled peak during that time frame. I'm waiting for Joe on this, but I assume it will become fixed in a later firmware update.

My program will have full screen metering + some extra meters that I miss this from xcontrol.

At the same time I will detect when the channel clip and then properly set the pre-amp gain level via osc. As an extension I can use it to auto-set gain levels @ soundcheck - Let the band "warm up" and all 32 levels are set within 10 seconds or so.

I will program this in c++ or c#.....

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

One of my questions has not been answered; do the insert returns appear on the Aux in channels as well as the insert return points? This would not be a huge deal, but would be somewhat inelegant. I wish I had a physical X32 so I could answer all these questions for myself!~:-(~:sad:

I would imagine it would be present on the aux input as I can see no reason why it wouldn't be as long as it is assigned to be. You can of course reassign the channel to take the input from somewhere else, but .....
I'll have a look later today, as I'm not aware of exactly where the insert is tapped back from the aux channel, but I would imagine it would be right after the trim and before any eq.

As I understand it, the Dugan mixer keeps the total gain constant by reducing the gain depending on how many mics are open. I don't think your scheme does that, does it?

In practise, the Dugan mixer does such a great job that I would be very wary of trying any other method of controlling multiple mics.

Yes, I totally get that, and anybody that actually own or need this system should not go about reinventing the wheel to accomplish what they want just so they can use the X32. If you want to use the hardware you already have, add the bits that that system needs, being preamps, patchbays or whatever. If you haven't got the hardware and need it, buy a Yamaha 01 mixer and a card, that will only set you back $6000 or so, and be rather cheap compared to some of the systems.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Request for a change in XControl

I would like to see a different graphic for pre-fader as opposed to post-fader aux sends in the "sends" section of the Home screen. At the moment they are the same, so you can't tell quickly if you have set up your aux busses correctly.

And, if it's the same on the actual X32, the change should be made there as well.

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

I can't really see why that would be a problem in the home screen sends section, because it is right there to see, both above and below the faders, but I think it would be nifty to have some kind of coding like a text overlay or colour coding according to state in the LCDs when one is using sends on faders, that would be really cool.

or not :blush:

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 in the studio with midi

Greetings ..
I am following this thread, and I have also had many problems in the recording studio environment .. Noise clips, panel buffer incomprehensible, complex routing configuration ..
Etc etc. .. I'm concluding that the X32 is not a decent mixer for recording ..
Now he has a new problem .. as recording MIDI from an external keyboard or other MIDI instrument???
X32 is a live sound mixer
X32 NOT used for recording studio~:-(~:sad:

A midi interface hardly costs anything, so why burdon the X32 and the interface between the X32 and computer with the task of also transmitting midi? If you want to reduce the complication of routing, then one of the things you would want to do is run the midi separate.
In a live situation, having the ability to transport midi to and from stage without extra wiring would be an attractive proposition because it would speed up set-up, but in a studio environment that would be less of a consideration. A nifty midi set up would be a Motu 128 midi 8 channel interface hooked up to the computer via usb for shorter distances, or hooked up to a small laptop and then transferred via ethernet to the recording computer using ipMidi when distances are longer.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Yes, I totally get that, and anybody that actually own or need this system should not go about reinventing the wheel to accomplish what they want just so they can use the X32. If you want to use the hardware you already have, add the bits that that system needs, being preamps, patchbays or whatever. If you haven't got the hardware and need it, buy a Yamaha 01 mixer and a card, that will only set you back $6000 or so, and be rather cheap compared to some of the systems.

I can't tell if you are being ironic or serious.

The Dugan solution is pretty much the most expensive way to accomplish that task.

Since a digital console has all the hardware needed, and more than enough computer power, it seems a matter of time until this becomes a software feature, but that is a smaller market and a topic for another day.

Peace out...

JR

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

I can't tell if you are being ironic or serious.

The Dugan solution is pretty much the most expensive way to accomplish that task.

Since a digital console has all the hardware needed, and more than enough computer power, it seems a matter of time until this becomes a software feature, but that is a smaller market and a topic for another day.

Peace out...

JR

Serious as always ~;-)~:wink: . No, honestly........

As far as I can tell without doing too much rescearch, there are solutions, automix for waves and other stuff, so one could do it via firewire and using plugins on the computer, probably build something with Liveprofessor and Synthedit etc. It doesn't seem to be hard to make something once one have defined what is wanted, and I would imagine a feature programmed into the desk would not be hard either, question is only how advanced and versatile one wants it to be, since there must be a point where it gets too complex for the user to set up.

However, if Dugan is what one wants, then the way cheapest solution must be a Yamaha 01 and a card. Seriously.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Serious as always ~;-)~:wink: . No, honestly........
=====clip
However, if Dugan is what one wants, then the way cheapest solution must be a Yamaha 01 and a card. Seriously.

Seriously, the landmark Dugan patent expired in the mid '90s. The key technology (gain sharing algorithm) has been public domain since then (I got a variant AM improvement patent in '97). There are numerous competitors, AFAIK ALL less expensive. Dan's approach pretty much defines the high end for that application. While as I have been saying for years, it could be accomplished with just software on several digital console platforms.

We now return you to the on-topic discussion, already in process...

JR

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: Request for a change in XControl

I can't really see why that would be a problem in the home screen sends section, because it is right there to see, both above and below the faders, but I think it would be nifty to have some kind of coding like a text overlay or colour coding according to state in the LCDs when one is using sends on faders, that would be really cool.

or not :blush:

My apologies, I made a mistake in my post. I should have been talking about the section of the Home screen at the far right called "Bus Sends".

I will go back and edit my first post on the subject.

Mick Berg
:blush:

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Serious as always ~;-)~:wink: . No, honestly........

As far as I can tell without doing too much rescearch, there are solutions, automix for waves and other stuff, so one could do it via firewire and using plugins on the computer, probably build something with Liveprofessor and Synthedit etc. It doesn't seem to be hard to make something once one have defined what is wanted, and I would imagine a feature programmed into the desk would not be hard either, question is only how advanced and versatile one wants it to be, since there must be a point where it gets too complex for the user to set up.

However, if Dugan is what one wants, then the way cheapest solution must be a Yamaha 01 and a card. Seriously.

I was looking at the feasibility of using an X32 for musical theater and it looks like it has enough outputs to uses for interfacing the Shure SCM810 automixers. But not by using it on inserts. The SCM810 isn’t really made to be used that way.

I was on the auto mixing for live sound panel at the NYC AES with Dan in 2009. I use the Shure SCM810 for theatrical productions. For the dialog parts not for music. I have a rack of 2 linked together. I come out of the (post fader) direct outs on my main console (these channels are only assigned to a singing sub group) and I plug into each input of the 810 and then the output of the 810 comes back into the console and is assigned to a vocal (talking) sub. This way when I need to push a channel a little bit more I have control on the main console and if I mute a channel it also takes it out of the 810 (auto mixer). So for the singing parts only the singing sub group is up and for the dialog parts only the talking sub group is up.

I always enable the “last mic lock on” switch on the 810 so it leaves the last mic on instead of turning them all off if there is a pause. It prevents the system from sounding choppy. But of course if I mute a channel or bring down its fader it is no longer in the mix (810) even if it was the last mic locked on.

I use this method whenever I do any theatrical shows for the dialog parts. I have used 20 channels of automixers for shows and have had every wireless mic up on stage with interactive dialog that was too fast to be able to manually bring up and down all of the people just for their lines. I had only just gotten to work on the show a few days before opening for a weekend run so I didn’t know it well enough and the automixers work great. I will say it again; the automixers don’t work for singing.

The SCM810 when bought new can be a little bit pricey especially considering how much the Dugan card costs for the Yamaha mixer that does 16 channels. But I have only bough one SCM810 new (and that was at dealer cost), I find them selling used on ebay for good prices. I have had to fix a few of them but it is still a bargain. I think people use these on installs where they aren’t really appropriate so they wind up on the used market at a reasonable price.

I am working on a musical now (closing night tonight) and am using 16 channels of auto mixing using the SCM810. I am using another company’s digital console for this show.

 

[Paul Johnson]

Re: Cases for the X32

I just got a flightcase from Equipment Protection Solutions Ltd -
http://www.epsflightcases.co.uk/shop?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=578&category_id=129

Pretty impressed. The case is pretty standard, but the dog box is built from double thickness ply, and is really tough, and adds a useful bit of weight to the bottom of the case - handy when you get casters on a narrowish case. I looked at a few, and what swung this one was the colour options - I got blue, and the price was pretty much the same as the competition - no extra charge for blue, in this example. I've never dealt with them before, but speedy delivery and a decent product.

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

Seriously, the landmark Dugan patent expired in the mid '90s. The key technology (gain sharing algorithm) has been public domain since then (I got a variant AM improvement patent in '97). There are numerous competitors, AFAIK ALL less expensive. Dan's approach pretty much defines the high end for that application. While as I have been saying for years, it could be accomplished with just software on several digital console platforms.

We now return you to the on-topic discussion, already in process...

JR

If a built-in Dugan emulator used the actual Dugan algorithm, as do the Yamaha plug in cards, I would be happy with it.

JR, would you be willing to share how to implement your AM function on say eight channels of the X32? I would be quite happy to be persuaded that there is a viable alternative. Maybe in another thread or a PM?

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

If a built-in Dugan emulator used the actual Dugan algorithm, as do the Yamaha plug in cards, I would be happy with it.

JR, would you be willing to share how to implement your AM function on say eight channels of the X32? I would be quite happy to be persuaded that there is a viable alternative. Maybe in another thread or a PM?

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

Not sure what the status is, but Dugan had/has one or more patents that cover his automixers.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Request for a change in XControl

My apologies, I made a mistake in my post. I should have been talking about the section of the Home screen at the far right called "Bus Sends".

I will go back and edit my first post on the subject.

Mick Berg
:blush:

Oh yes, it is only the ones assigned to subgroup that is marked differently. That is definitely not consistent with the way it is marked other places, and should really be changed. I'll check on the console if it is the same there.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

If a built-in Dugan emulator used the actual Dugan algorithm, as do the Yamaha plug in cards, I would be happy with it.

JR, would you be willing to share how to implement your AM function on say eight channels of the X32? I would be quite happy to be persuaded that there is a viable alternative. Maybe in another thread or a PM?

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

I am not looking for a new distraction.

As I said the basic "Dugan" algorithm is public domain and free for anyone to use for more than a decade.

I have little interest in messing with an x32. There are competing AM technologies, several that were in the marketplace before Dan's basic patent expired, so they developed alternative approaches (to avoid infringing on his patent). Many have continued with their in-house approach, even after the Dugan algorithm became public domain**. A handful of companies that developed AM products later, used the Dugan algorithm (IMO the best approach), while most don't formerly credit him. They generally drop hard to miss hints in their marketing.

I would love to see Dan get paid a royalty for a widely used software plug-in, but for now he is making more selling a hardware solution. Who knows how this will all end up (not me).

AM is sub-genre of sound reinforcement so not a mass market mainstream application, but large enough to support multiple hardware product offerings from different companies.

JR

Hint: Maybe start a different thread asking how AM's work, or even do some actual "research". Dugan's original patent explains the basic algorithm in the text of his patent.

** I am only speaking about Dan's original landmark patent. Dan has several later patents and improvements. Those need to to be reviewed separately.

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: How to do an analog insert?

I am not looking for a new distraction.

As I said the basic "Dugan" algorithm is public domain and free for anyone to use for more than a decade.

I have little interest in messing with an x32. There are competing AM technologies, several that were in the marketplace before Dan's basic patent expired, so they developed alternative approaches (to avoid infringing on his patent). Many have continued with their in-house approach, even after the Dugan algorithm became public domain**. A handful of companies that developed AM products later, used the Dugan algorithm (IMO the best approach), while most don't formerly credit him. They generally drop hard to miss hints in their marketing.

I would love to see Dan get paid a royalty for a widely used software plug-in, but for now he is making more selling a hardware solution. Who knows how this will all end up (not me).

AM is sub-genre of sound reinforcement so not a mass market mainstream application, but large enough to support multiple hardware product offerings from different companies.

JR

Hint: Maybe start a different thread asking how AM's work, or even do some actual "research". Dugan's original patent explains the basic algorithm in the text of his patent.

** I am only speaking about Dan's original landmark patent. Dan has several later patents and improvements. Those need to to be reviewed separately.

Fair enough.
Thanks,
Mick Berg.