X32 Discussion

[Bill Garvin]

Re: Happy new year

Happy new year at all !
I had a very nice gig yesterday.
FOH left delicious dining and FOH right drinks without end :lol:

Thanks for the pics, and glad you had a nice gig. Looks like a sound persons dream - a step to the left, all the food you can eat, a step to the right all the drink you can drink! I bet the musicians were all very jealous.8)~~ Heck, I've been playing guitar 49 years and never had that happen to me!!!

 

[Bill Garvin]

Re: X32

This is my first visit here as i purchase X32 and 2 S16 and did some shows with it for last months. I am sound engineer for more then 20 year and mix on many consoles like Avid Sc48, Midas, Digico and Yamaha LS9/PM7.

The X32 is amazing, really amazing. Have you listen to the dynamics and effects specificaly reverbs? Wow!! They are much better then many exepensive consoles. You can hear midas sound. I cannot believe how Behringer can do for this price.
The X32 is now very popular in Europe and i see many of sound company buying this mixer.

Did you know that Uli is musician? I found this video and he play with famous Lee Ritenour!

Louis

[video=youtube;kJiGvCnT-9U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJiGvCnT-9U[/video]

Thanks for posting, Louis! Nice to hear from somebody that has mixed on some nice boards and is impressed with the X32. Cool video of Uli too! Didn't know he was a musician as well.

 

[Bill Garvin]

Re: X32

This is my first visit here as i purchase X32 and 2 S16 and did some shows with it for last months. I am sound engineer for more then 20 year and mix on many consoles like Avid Sc48, Midas, Digico and Yamaha LS9/PM7.

The X32 is amazing, really amazing. Have you listen to the dynamics and effects specificaly reverbs? Wow!! They are much better then many exepensive consoles. You can hear midas sound. I cannot believe how Behringer can do for this price.
The X32 is now very popular in Europe and i see many of sound company buying this mixer.

Did you know that Uli is musician? I found this video and he play with famous Lee Ritenour!

Louis

Holy Moly! I just checked out the video, and they are all 1st class musicians - including Mr Uli Behringer. He definitely has the chops to keep up with Lee Ritenour. Great playing by everyone involved!! Louis, thanks so much for including that in your post.

 

[Luigi Chelli]

Re: Tap Delay weirdness?

I recall having issues getting the delay to sync to tap tempo. I didn't investigate this further at the time since I know that some tap tempo act on the release of the button and others when being pressed and I therefor needed to find out which way the x32 works...

yes, there's definitively a problem with tap tempo.... i have to tap a lot of times to get the right sync (something like 15-20 times)....that thing really needs a tech revision...

 

[Rob Dellwood]

Re: Tap Delay weirdness?

yes, there's definitively a problem with tap tempo.... i have to tap a lot of times to get the right sync (something like 15-20 times)....that thing really needs a tech revision...

Sometimes less is more. Try 'practicing' tapping the tempo speed you need on the chassis next to the tap button, then move over and hit the tap tempo button only two times at the same speed. This method seems to work well once you get used to it. YMMV.

 

[Rob Bolling]

-18/20 dbfs quandry.

Digital simply has no soft clip. With an analog circuit, gently pushing the levels past 0db could impart some gentle and pleasing distortion. Push digital past 0db and you get pops, clicks, snaps and sometimes what sounds like a thermal core meltdown alarm. The trick is to aim for around -3db for the most part and you are fine. On most modern digital consoles the mix engine does a great job so as long as you make sure you are not clipping individual channels with too much gain you should be fine.

No need to go as high as -3dB, around -18dBFS for nominal level should be about right. -18dBFS gives you about +4dBu at the outputs, which is a common nominal level to aim for, and even maximum level for some equipment.

I understand the theory and the voltage equation of -18-20dbfs equating to 0dbv, but I was taught the digital metering domain works differently largely because of this difference. Rip any CD that has been produced in the last 10 years and you will find the levels peaking between -0.3dbfs and 0dbfs. For summing purposes in a mixing environment I understand you would want to undershoot with enough safety buffer to leave plenty of headroom (as I have since the early 90s) but if you handed someone a CD that peaked at -18dbfs they would wonder what is wrong with it because it would play back exponentially lower than all their others. Heck, most CDs RMS between -8 and -15 depending on the source material. I have always been taught to gain stage my daw inputs to peak at -3db which is 50% of maximum digital potential, -6 would be 25% of max potential. Maybe digital boards meters are set up different than daw meters or I am just loosing my mind but I ran my 02R with 24 channels between -6 and -3 on the meters and never had clipping on any channels or on my main outs. The way I have always understood it, -18/20 is simply considered the "alignment" or calibration level to match the voltage of analog meters to digital meters. There must be something we are disconnecting on here.

I would appreciate more examples and explanation to help me understand what it appears I have been misunderstanding for about 20 years now.

Or, to put it another way, "This new learning amazes me. Now, tell me again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquake." ~;-)~:wink:

 

[Rob Bolling]

On a lighter note...

I am now the proud father of a 45lb bouncing baby X32. However, it cries between 6-12k on the monitor and headphone outs so I may only be acting as a short term foster parent of this particular one pending what Joe S. comes up with in the next day or two.

Squeal aside, my initial impressions are a very emphatic thumbs up.

If relibility matches the feature set and sounds of this thing, Behringer will have won another convert that will gladly drink all the kool-aid they can make of this flavor.

The primary function of this particular board will be a mid-level project studio. I will likely buy a backup and replace my Yamaha live rig with the backup X32 as long as it is not needed in the studio. (knock on wood, hopefully never)

I have not been able to track or mix anything in its entirety yet, but I have tracked a few vocals and re-mixed a couple of simple things and I can't imagine the partial mixes I have done will get worse as I finish them. I can only see the polish of time making them better. Sonically, (to my ears) in a studio environment, this thing is easily the equal of anything Yamaha I have ever used with the pres simply so much more usable and musical it is not funny.

Take away the sine noise, give us a few more tweaks like proper mute groups, maybe a solo in place option, and a little better routing/features on auxes and returns, and I simply can't imagine what more I could expect for the money this thing costs. (but rest assured I, like most of us, will still request tweaks and features, its just human nature.) ~:-D~:grin:

Hats off to Behringer.

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: On a lighter note...

However, it cries between 6-12k on the monitor and headphone outs so I may only be acting as a short term foster parent of this particular one pending what Joe S. comes up with in the next day or two.

Oh, you mean that low level "digital" noise at something like -60dB (not measured, just a guess...)? Yeah, I hear that too.

It is disappointing, but kind of expected. I've never had any Behringer product except the DCX/DEQ2496 products that didn't suffer from some level of digital perturbation.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: On a lighter note...

Oh, you mean that low level "digital" noise at something like -60dB (not measured, just a guess...)? Yeah, I hear that too.

It is disappointing, but kind of expected. I've never had any Behringer product except the DCX/DEQ2496 products that didn't suffer from some level of digital perturbation.

The issue has come up several times in this thread, and been met with official silence. I hope Rob is able to motivate a response.

FWIW, I actively used headphones on my last show with the console to PFL things, and in that relatively noisy environment the noise (which I interpret as a digital bleed and not a sine) was unnoticable. I think it would be profoundly more of a problem when used as a monitor console with listen wedge(s).

 

[Jared Koopman]

S16's arrived today...

Our two S16's arrived.

I have one mounted and the other is waiting assembly of the other rack.

 

[Paul Mirtschin]

Re: -18/20 dbfs quandry.

I understand the theory and the voltage equation of -18-20dbfs equating to 0dbv, but I was taught the digital metering domain works differently largely because of this difference. Rip any CD that has been produced in the last 10 years and you will find the levels peaking between -0.3dbfs and 0dbfs. For summing purposes in a mixing environment I understand you would want to undershoot with enough safety buffer to leave plenty of headroom (as I have since the early 90s) but if you handed someone a CD that peaked at -18dbfs they would wonder what is wrong with it because it would play back exponentially lower than all their others. Heck, most CDs RMS between -8 and -15 depending on the source material. I have always been taught to gain stage my daw inputs to peak at -3db which is 50% of maximum digital potential, -6 would be 25% of max potential. Maybe digital boards meters are set up different than daw meters or I am just loosing my mind but I ran my 02R with 24 channels between -6 and -3 on the meters and never had clipping on any channels or on my main outs. The way I have always understood it, -18/20 is simply considered the "alignment" or calibration level to match the voltage of analog meters to digital meters. There must be something we are disconnecting on here.

I'm in holiday mode at the moment, so excuse any vagueness.

Yes, CDs are peaking at a bee's-dick under 0dBFS, but that is a final product. There is no part of the signal-path that will add more signal to a CD.

Metering to -15 to -18dBFS is usually done on a per-channel basis, allowing the signal to be summed with the rest of the channels, and still giving you room to move before the signal exits the digital realm. You can run hotter per channel, and hotter overall if you wish, but that leaves you with less headroom, which can cause issues further down the track... usually when an artist suddenly finds a bit more energy and starts playing/singing louder.

In the studio, you can run as hot as you want - if you find the signal clipping, you can take a step back and undo it, but live doesn't tend to have that ability; once you clip, you clip.

Now back to holiday-mode.

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: On a lighter note...

I am now the proud father of a 45lb bouncing baby X32. However, it cries between 6-12k on the monitor and headphone outs so I may only be acting as a short term foster parent of this particular one pending what Joe S. comes up with in the next day or two.

Squeal aside, my initial impressions are a very emphatic thumbs up.

If relibility matches the feature set and sounds of this thing, Behringer will have won another convert that will gladly drink all the kool-aid they can make of this flavor.

The primary function of this particular board will be a mid-level project studio. I will likely buy a backup and replace my Yamaha live rig with the backup X32 as long as it is not needed in the studio. (knock on wood, hopefully never)

I have not been able to track or mix anything in its entirety yet, but I have tracked a few vocals and re-mixed a couple of simple things and I can't imagine the partial mixes I have done will get worse as I finish them. I can only see the polish of time making them better. Sonically, (to my ears) in a studio environment, this thing is easily the equal of anything Yamaha I have ever used with the pres simply so much more usable and musical it is not funny.

Take away the sine noise, give us a few more tweaks like proper mute groups, maybe a solo in place option, and a little better routing/features on auxes and returns, and I simply can't imagine what more I could expect for the money this thing costs. (but rest assured I, like most of us, will still request tweaks and features, its just human nature.) ~:-D~:grin:

Hats off to Behringer.

Hi Guys,

In regards to the monitor section noise you mentioned above:

This is not typical and has been noted in a very few production models. It is related to an internal cable routing and is a very easy fix.
It is related to the monitor cable running too close to DSP chips.
This has been changed in production and any units with this issue can easily be corrected.

I will get an official service notice on this, with the exact procedure/resolution.

I hope it helps.

Best
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: On a lighter note...

Hi Guys,

In regards to the monitor section noise you mentioned above:

This is not typical and has been noted in a very few production models. It is related to an internal cable routing and is a very easy fix.
It is related to the monitor cable running too close to DSP chips.
This has been changed in production and any units with this issue can easily be corrected.

I will get an official service notice on this, with the exact procedure/resolution.

This is astonishingly wonderful news! Thank you.

All three of mine do it, and I will be happier when they don't.

Thanks again.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Since there seems to be a "Here's My Gig" subthread within this thread, here are some pics from the two shows I've done so far with an X32.

The first was a live radio broadcast for a University near here that has Jazz Big Band in its Music curriculum, and a campus FM radio station with a Jazz format and a region-wide coverage. (first 4 pictures)

I do the in-room PA mix with my gear, and a station engineer does the broadcast mix (which is also recorded for delayed presentation on Christmas Day) with their gear. I do what little stage monitor mixing there is from FOH. Stage inputs are split between consoles with a kludge of mic splitters, and the station engineer is adamant that they all be Jensen transformer isolated. Given that their provided splitter is 24 channels, and we had 31 inputs, the last 7 inputs were a challenge that we resolved with a tangle of single channel units, a bunch of cables, and parallel DI's for the two direct inputs.

The campus Jazz band performs with a special guest, and this year it was a local Gypsy Jazz band, Pearl Django.

This year I used the X32, and was pleasantly surprised at how much easier it made my life that day despite my comparative unfamiliarity with it relative to my analog boards.

I didn't get good pics after the room was full because I was kind of busy, but it went like clockwork and sounded as good as it can sound in a very live but beautiful room. Next year I intend to make the station engineer comfortable with using an X32 on his end, as it should cut an hour off our setup time by eliminating all the splitter patching.

The second event was the 24th annual local concert of Duke Ellington's Sacred Music, with a different Jazz Big Band, a 26 voice choir, two vocal soloists, and a tap dancer. There may have been a kitchen sink in there somewhere, too. (last 3 pictures)

Again, the console worked great, although this room is quite a bit more of an acoustic challenge than the other one, and I was wishing I was more adept at using the in-console EQ. I was kind of missing my outboard EQ, but feel it is a cockpit problem rather than a hardware one which I will continue to try to improve.

One thing I haven't mastered yet is only being able to do one thing at a time and observe one thing at a time. Yes, I know that is not precisely true, but there are a lot of things of which you have to be aware without being able to directly see them at any given moment.

Something that is so remarkable about this console is its ability to have multiple additional screens using iPads, and I intend to incorporate that into my workflow. There is a Behringer ad which discusses the Midas heritage from which the X32 springs, and it shows an XL8 with 4 or more screens. If users at that level need multiple screens, so do I, and the iPads can each be set to monitor different functions. So far I'm using a 1st Gen to watch the input channel meters, and just got a Mini for the output meters (or whatever).

My next intensive use for the consoles will be a four-stage Winter bluegrass festival that we do; the challenge there is that there are people listening very closely to very nice acoustic instruments that we amplify to fill the spaces, and the audience and client have come to expect a pretty high level of fidelity. Given what I've heard so far from these consoles, I think they can meet high expectations.

My learning curve has been steeper than many of yours, as these are my first digital consoles, and like all computers, there are times when I just sit there and stare at it, trying to figure out why it's doing THIS and not what I think it should be doing.

And I think it will be challenging to explain to another operator how all the parameters are set up; I've started on a sort of "patch sheet" that will summarize all relevant setup pages, and have formatted a "Standard FOH" scene based around 8 monitor mixes, L-R-Mono, 4 subgroups, 2 Matrix, and 3 user-available outputs. I'm curious how other people transmit this information. I'm also curious how channels get labeled in "run and gun" situations, but that's probably another post.

This is a wonderful console.

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Mute groups

I used the x32 as a monitor desk last week. It worked very well with the master fader assigned to be the cue wedge level.

One thing I noticed is how the mutes are set up to work when in sends on fader mode. The mutes are send specific, they are not global to all mix buses. If you are not in sof mode the mutes are global and affect every mix bus. Personally I like this and think that it is the correct way to do things but I'm sure it will get some people into trouble. There is no way to assign/unassign to a mix on the x32 so the mutes are used to achieve the same outcome.

Darren

 

[Rob Bolling]

Re: -18/20 dbfs quandry.

I'm in holiday mode at the moment, so excuse any vagueness.

Yes, CDs are peaking at a bee's-dick under 0dBFS, but that is a final product. There is no part of the signal-path that will add more signal to a CD.

Metering to -15 to -18dBFS is usually done on a per-channel basis, allowing the signal to be summed with the rest of the channels, and still giving you room to move before the signal exits the digital realm. You can run hotter per channel, and hotter overall if you wish, but that leaves you with less headroom, which can cause issues further down the track... usually when an artist suddenly finds a bit more energy and starts playing/singing louder.

In the studio, you can run as hot as you want - if you find the signal clipping, you can take a step back and undo it, but live doesn't tend to have that ability; once you clip, you clip.

Now back to holiday-mode.

Ahhh, it makes more sense now. In a way we were all right, you CAN use up to but just short of 0dbfs, it is just that in voltage terms, once you pass -18 you are beginning to "run hot" with a digital signal.

You still have the brickwall of 0dbfs, but in old VU terms you would be considered "in the red" once you were dabbling in the -12, -9, -6 areas. I can see where -3 in an uncontrolled environment would be seriously risking it.

I have always ran live sound on digital boards with individual channels peaking between -12 and -9 for the very reason you state so I guess the crux of it is that I really would have been safer @ -18.

Coming into the digital game early on when 16 bit was all we got, (as well as being in a studio situation) we were taught to aim for -3 as this was a safe level but you were loosing/wasting signal to noise if you did not use the majority of the bits. I suppose with 24/32 bit that is no longer as vital an issue hence the ability to leave more headroom and still retain sonic quality.

Cheers, and enjoy the rest of your holiday.

 

[Juergen Riemann]

Re: -18/20 dbfs quandry.

The good thing about the X32 is that is has 40bit floating point dsp which means the console can internally never overload and distort. The only critical gateways are the AD and DA convertes where you have to watch levels. This is quite different from analog consoles and in many ways much better.

 

[Rob Bolling]

Solo in place? Eq paring?

So am I just missing it all together or is there no "solo in place" function on the X32? I have adjusted all of the options we currently have available on fw 1.11 and none of the options appear to SIP. Even in AFL, the signal strength jumps considerably every time I solo something so that is not true SIP. I can do a PFL solo with dimming to keep the SPL down, but SIP is a useful tool for pinpointing problems with things like effects.

My next question, is there a way to pair eq's with paired tracks? Or, without making a preset, is there a way to copy an eq from one track and paste it on another? If not, this is something we really could use. I doubt I would ever use exactly the same eq from project to project so a preset in a library is not really the best option, but I can see regularly dropping the same eq on two separate tracks for doubled vocals, guitar, or stereo drum tracks.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: -18/20 dbfs quandry.

An often overlooked factor is what the meters are showing, do they reflect true peak values, quasi-peak values (PPM), RMS values or more of an average level? With anything but true peak meters the peak levels of the signal could be greater than the levels reflected and while digital console meters typically reflect more of a true peak representation, I have looked though the X32 product data and manual but don't see where the meter characteristics are identified to verify that to be valid for the X32. Perhaps Joe or someone else from Behringer could comment on that.

Another often overlooked factor is where you are metering. Many people look at meters and don't think about how that relates to faders, summing downstream, etc. For example, a meter may read a certain level but if it is post a fader then how does the fader setting factor into the level upstream of that? If you read -18dBFS on a meter but the fader right before the meter is at -20 then what does that say about the level pre-fader?

I also think that what is being said is that with a known signal it is possible to normalize that signal so that the peak level is 0dBFS or just below that, however with live sound you don't know the peak level until after the performance is over, thus to avoid the potential of digital clipping you usually have to leave some headroom.

 

[Nick Sheridan]

Re: Solo in place? Eq paring?

My next question, is there a way to pair eq's with paired tracks? Or, without making a preset, is there a way to copy an eq from one track and paste it on another? If not, this is something we really could use. I doubt I would ever use exactly the same eq from project to project so a preset in a library is not really the best option, but I can see regularly dropping the same eq on two separate tracks for doubled vocals, guitar, or stereo drum tracks.

Both can be done. You can select the pairing options for channels in the settings page so that Eq is paired. You can also copy and paste channel settings. Select channel and press utility, then copy. Then select channel you wish to paste to and paste the channel settings. You need to select the elements you wish to paste on the utility page to choose just Eq or any other combination of channel parameters, the copy function copies all parameters but you choose what to paste.