X32 Discussion

re: X32 Discussion

Tom Vogel said:
A) i ordered mine 3 weeks ago! Can't wait to get it soon!
Christian: Thank you for your great informations about the X32!
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Thank you Tom,
but I do this just out of pure self interest! As long as there are questions, I don't have to bring my demo console back:)
Seriously, I think Behringer build an awesome console for its price range and in my eyes it deserves to be recognised.
I was sceptical before I got the desk...than I worked with it, got to know the R&D team and some technical details behind it and I'm still impressed.
And I hope you will be too.

Have a great weekend!
Christian
 
re: X32 Discussion

Also habe a good weekend!
I'm interesred in this board because our band needed a simple, yet compact solution for our shows. Great you did shows with "Plan B" ! I have been working with Fichi and Herman also. Best regards to them!
Is the X32 haptik ok?

Nice evening!
 
re: X32 Discussion

Dear soundforums, I stumbled across this site looking to see if the x32 had attack and release settings in its channel compressor... Well what a wealth of knowledge I found!

A fair play has to go to Christian and Uli for some of the brilliant answers they have given.

I am wondering if anyone can fill me in on ultranet and the P16 series.

I am considering an x32 and P16 system for some portable recording and am wondering why would you use the P16 16 D. It takes in 16 channels and splits it 8 ways yes? How ever cant the P16 M be daisy chained to another? How many times could they be daisy chained?

Perhaps Ill answer my own question now but, when it comes to midi and the P16 M, would a midi signal go back to the desk if it came the end of a P16 M chain?

Basically, would this work.

MIDI -> P16M -> P16M -> X32.

And finally, can you power another P16M off the ultranet port?

Any light on this would bev a great help.

Uli, I am quite excited about the X32 system. If I could have have one request, it would be to make the firmware solid.

Have a look on a presonus forum... Boards dying mid show. I would take a noisey channel over a midshow desk crash any day. And Im not saying that I expect the X32 to crash.... Just its just seems to be the way of some digital desks. Ive seen LS 9s and MLs die....If there is anyone on the forum who works lights aswell, Im sure they would all have a horror story about a Strand desk running "Pallete OS"...

Having said all that, Christians tests with pulling out the FW connection mid stream are quite promising. I look forward to getting around one of these desks.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Dear all,

Someone had posted a great question:

“Can a pair of S16's provide simultaneous feeds to (and from!) 2 X 32s? (and would any extra hardware be required)?
Also, are there any thoughts for a software package to optimize an X32 for Monitor mixing use?”


This is in fact one of the coolest elements of the whole X32 system; the on-board AES50 networking that connects the X32 to the S16 stage box. AES50 is a deterministic network that has been designed expressly for use in a live sound environment where latency needs to be ultra-low and channel-count needs to be flexible and ample. For most people the details of how much power is in the AES50 network will come as a shock; especially when you consider that it is included at no extra cost!

The X32 has two AES50 ports to which you can connect any other X32 or S16. Each AES50 port carries 48 channels of input and output simultaneously, so you can potentially connect up to 96 inputs at one time. Plus, the two AES50 ports can act as a bridge, allowing remote inputs connected to one X32 to be shared with another X32 through the second port. Let me give you a couple of configurations as examples:

Let's say you are working a festival stage with a couple of different bands so you install 3x S16 stage boxes for a total of 48 input channels. The three stage boxes are looped together with Cat5 cable and then to an X32 in the monitor position off the side of the stage. Another single Cat5 cable connects the FOH X32 to the monitor console. Both consoles can select among the 48 available inputs and mix both house and monitors at the same time.

Here's another less obvious configuration that does the same thing at an even lower cost and dead-simple setup. Place one X32 at the monitor position and connect all stage mics into this console, then connect the FOH X32 with one Cat5 cable. Now you've got a stage mix and a house mix using only 2 X32 consoles and no stage boxes at all!

As for your question about monitor software, there really isn't anything extra needed. With full dynamics, processing and EQ on all inputs and outputs, as well as a "mix-bus" configuration, the X32 lends itself to monitor applications right out of the box. With typical consoles you might have a number of pre and post sends, subs and mix outputs. With the X32 you have 16 mix busses that can be individually assigned to pre or post operation so you can build a 16-channel monitor mix that works exactly as you would expect a dedicated monitor mixer to work.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Dear David,

thank you for your excellent comment.

Indeed, firmware is always a key concern in any digital mixing console. Nothing is more serious than losing audio in a live environment and believe me, we are extremely mindful of it.

While I cannot speak on behalf of competitors whose consoles fail, I can assure you that we have not spared any effort to test the X32. In fact we spent over one year to vigorously test the X32 under any possible condition and there are reports that a tester even left his X32 in the car overnight while it was exposed to freezing temperatures. After switching it on, it worked perfectly fine.

This is the main reason why we delayed the release of the X32 as we took extreme measures to make sure the console is mature.

Six months ago, we handed out over 20 consoles to professional rental companies and power users with the mission to find software bugs and propose suggestions for improvements.
Christian Boche who is an avid contributor here, is a witness to that process and we are extremely grateful for his invaluable input and the feedback we received from all other testers.

While we received great feedback and implemented lots of the suggestions, to the best of my knowledge no console has ever crashed or caused any interruption in a live application. If I am wrong, please correct me Christian.

Of course, firmware is never perfect and we are looking forward to receiving more valuable input once consoles get into the hands of our customers. Based on Christian's previous reports, I have seen that our Software engineering team often implemented his suggestions within a day or two.

It is also worth mentioning that firmware updates on the X32 are very simple. Just download the latest firmware from the website on a USB stick, plug it into the corresponding connector on top of the console and power up the X32. That's it.

I would also like to take the opportunity to emphasize, that neither Christian nor any other beta tester ever received any compensation for their efforts. Since some of these testers also work for independent magazines, we wanted to avoid any potential conflict of interest.

All these people were kind enough to volunteer in testing the X32 and helping us perfecting the console. Once again, thank you Christian for all the time you spent here in sharing your experience and answering peoples' questions.

Btw. we just launched the official “BEHRINGER Forum” where you will find additional information about the X32 and other topics. www.behringer.com/forum

Thank you David for a very valuable comment.
 
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re: X32 Discussion

Hi Christian
I know that sound is subjective, but where would you place the sound or audio quality coming out of the x32?
Is it anything like a Midas Venice, or like an older Midas XL200, or are you hearing a different ls pleasant sound.
 
re: X32 Discussion

I've been thinking about the architecture of the X32 and the S16 snakes and began wondering whether there was any initial thought doing it differently!
As far as I understand, if a couple of S16s are used for the main analogue I/O then these effectively replace those on the x32 including the pre-amps - which essentially become redundant.Therefore wonder if the option of not having the main I/O ( except maybe the aux's) built physically into the desk but having them only on the equivalent of two S16's which could either be locally coupled to the desk or used remotely via aes50 and a cat5 cable, was thought of. This may have put up the base cost - but as it stands a couple of S16's adds nearly 50% to the cost.

In addition the S16's have direct outs via adat built in - shame this is not currently emulated on the X32 ( for us with "old" HD recorders),

Just wondering!!!

Nick
 
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re: X32 Discussion

Are AES50 and/or Ultranet from X32 balanced?
Or should you always power whole system from one source.

How many P16-M, with individual power, could you place in serial on X32.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Ok, I started this thread so I guess it is time for me to ask a couple of questions of Uli.

Any thoughts on a variation on the X32 along the lines of the A&H GLD with only minimal I/O on the desk? Personally I would be happy to set a small rack with stage boxes even a few meters from a side stage mixer and connect with a short Cat5 if the cost and weight of the desk was reduced as well.

Any Dante capabilities in the works? That would be important to me.

I also want to express my thanks to Uli and Christian for providing as much information and transparency as they have to this forum.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Uli Behringer said:
Here's another less obvious configuration that does the same thing at an even lower cost and dead-simple setup. Place one X32 at the monitor position and connect all stage mics into this console, then connect the FOH X32 with one Cat5 cable. Now you've got a stage mix and a house mix using only 2 X32 consoles and no stage boxes at all!
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This is my preferred configuration, plus you have the added bonus of having 2 consoles when the need arises. Now for the kicker....Can the consoles be linked via wireless router? No snake at all would pretty handy in some situations. If this is possible what would happen if the connection was lost? Would the FOH mix still pass audio? Is the FOH mixer just acting as a Full featured remote? I am assuming audio must be sent from the FOH console down a copper drive snake to the power amps and the preamps are sending a digital signal from the monitor console to the FOH console.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Rob Spence;3274 Any thoughts on a variation on the X32 along the lines of the A&H GLD with only minimal I/O on the desk? Personally I would be happy to set a small rack with stage boxes even a few meters from a side stage mixer and connect with a short Cat5 if the cost and weight of the desk was reduced as well. Any Dante cap I also want to express my thanks to Uli an Christian for providing as much information and transparency as they have to this forum.[/QUOTE said:
Thats what obviously what i meant to say - and also extend my thanks to Christian and Uli and of course Rob for starting this threadS
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re: X32 Discussion

Eric Cagle said:
This is my preferred configuration, plus you have the added bonus of having 2 consoles when the need arises. Now for the kicker....Can the consoles be linked via wireless router? No snake at all would pretty handy in some situations. If this is possible what would happen if the connection was lost? Would the FOH mix still pass audio? Is the FOH mixer just acting as a Full featured remote? I am assuming audio must be sent from the FOH console down a copper drive snake to the power amps and the preamps are sending a digital signal from the monitor console to the FOH console.
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Consumer grade wireless networks are very long latency and not consistent not to mention at a much lower data rate than wired.
I would not expect it to work.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Rob Spence said:
Consumer grade wireless networks are very long latency and not consistent not to mention at a much lower data rate than wired.
I would not expect it to work.
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I guess I should have been clearer about using an X32 as a full featured remote. The latency wouldn't matter if it was just a remote. Most likely much less delay than just the distance to FOH from the speakers. The issue I would have is if a connection dropped out or was lost. What happens during the time it takes to reconnect and are there any pops and clicks or dropouts during the reconnection process. I would not use this configuration if the actual audio was being passed rather than just remote control of the mix assigned to FOH on the monitor console. At the cost of entry the X32 is affordable enough to be used as a full featured remote, especially if you consider you would have 2 actual consoles in the event you needed a backup or 2 single consoles for 2 seperate gigs. At worst case in the 2 console show situation you could mix from an Ipad in one of the positions if a console went down. Less than ideal but it would get you through.

I see myself now buying 2 consoles. A CAT5 and a drive snake and away we go. One could argue that control of the preamps is an issue but it is absolutely not. The headroom in 24 bit digital is almost twice what I was working with when I started out in audio many years ago. If you can't set up the preamps in the monitor position with enough gain and headroom with in excess of 110db real dynamic range then someone needs to learn gain structure. Pretty exciting possibilties. If the X32 lives up to what most of us believe it is going to be and is reliable I will actually proudly wear a Behringer T-shirt. Make mine black XL.
 
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re: X32 Discussion

Eric Cagle said:
The latency wouldn't matter if it was just a remote. Most likely much less delay than just the distance to FOH from the speakers. .
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Audio networking requires that the audio be delivered at a reliable latency. WIFI is variable latency with no guarantee. What happens when the lead vocal channel gets delayed relative to the backing vocal? Remember, you are talking about 48 channels in both directions that have to keep all the timing.
If a packet gets delayed or dropped, you will hear it!
 
re: X32 Discussion

Rob Spence said:
Audio networking requires that the audio be delivered at a reliable latency. WIFI is variable latency with no guarantee. What happens when the lead vocal channel gets delayed relative to the backing vocal? Remember, you are talking about 48 channels in both directions that have to keep all the timing.
If a packet gets delayed or dropped, you will hear it!
Click to expand...

I am just talking about wireless remote of the master unit like with my SAC system except full featured and hardware. No audio being passed through the wireless router, just control of the processing. With the Software Audio Console the remote just controls the settings, not the audio itself. The audio is handled my the master unit. This system works really well and has metering and an RTA on the remote among other things. It is full featured but in the software domain and the remote is a laptop or tablet, actually as many as 8 of them if you so desire. If It had a dedicated full function hardware controller I would not be looking at a pair of X32's. I actually have more invested in that system than an X32 costs as well. I love many features of the SAC system but the learning curve is steep and it is not something I am comfortable putting a visiting engineer on for the first time in a festival situation because of the lack of hardware control, even with the fader packs. The X32 is user friendly and at least stands a chance at this point of being somewhat rider acceptable to more than just local acts. Time will tell.

I understand the concept of the FOH taking its inputs digitally from the monitor console and then doing all of its processing from there and sending audio back down a snake to the amps and that is an easy and simple way to run that set up. That is how I plan on doing it. What I am really asking is if the FOH console can be set up as just a full featured remote to control all of the functions of the FOH mix on the monitor console. The processing and output being handled by the monitor console. If this can be done then wireless should not present a problem as far as some latency or timing is is concearned if you wanted to go that way. Plug in to AC power, establish a connection, and you are ready to go. No snake. No grounding issues. You could even run it from a battery source if you wanted to. Yes it would be overkill and sort of expensive as a remote but it does not require any new hardware development if it can be implemented within the software and it is available now. Just thinking out loud.
 
re: X32 Discussion

AES50 will only work as a direct cable connection with no routers or switches.

The remote control idea is quite interesting, but you would then use the LAN connection (and that could easily be wireless), not the AES50 (same plug and lead, different signals)
Haven't seen any mention of using one x32 to remote another, but if it is perceived as a good idea, they'll probably implement it. The advantage of doing that is obvious, but will limit how much monitor duty you can put on the onstage board, and you will not have any available audio at FOH, no input, no output.
Using the AES50 interface, all audio will travel back and forth and thus be more vulnerable to cable breach, but you'll have audio in out available at FOH, have more processing power etc.

Edit: some of this post is rather redundant after the last posting by Mr, Cagle, but I'll let it stand.
One thing though, SAC have lots of layers, so several remotes can work without disturbing each other, I think it would be harder to work a dual X32 remote arrangement without the two operators getting in each other's way.
 
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re: X32 Discussion

Per Søvik said:
AES50 will only work as a direct cable connection with no routers or switches.

The remote control idea is quite interesting, but you would then use the LAN connection (and that could easily be wireless), not the AES50 (same plug and lead, different signals)
Haven't seen any mention of using one x32 to remote another, but if it is perceived as a good idea, they'll probably implement it. The advantage of doing that is obvious, but will limit how much monitor duty you can put on the onstage board, and you will not have any available audio at FOH, no input, no output.
Using the AES50 interface, all audio will travel back and forth and thus be more vulnerable to cable breach, but you'll have audio in out available at FOH, have more processing power etc.

(Edit: some of this post is rather redundant after the last posting by Mr, Cagle, but I'll let it stand)
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I handle audio at FOH in that situation using a wireless in ear monitor rig with a full sized pair of isolation headphones for soloing etc. I suppose a "stereo control room out" type of thing could be sent over the LAN connection for just 2 channels and tied in to the headphone out of the board. Food for thought.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Christian,

I may have missed it, but are you using the firewire output to your DAW? Are you using this as a virtual soundcheck? If so, is this process pretty simple and work well? Which DAW are you using and have you tried multiple DAW's or just one?

Thanks,
Jared
 
re: X32 Discussion

Christian,

How do you patch this in the x32 ?

Christian Boche said:
I use SAC or LiveProfessor as VST plugin host ( http://ifoundasound.com ) together with an old Asus Laptop. I run it over the X32 firewire port (64 Samples latency) and add some kick drum samples to the original bass drum. I routed the original bassdrum also through my laptop, to keep it phase coherent. Than I use sometimes a SansAmp VST plugin on bass ( TSE Audio by onQel • View topic - TSE B.O.D - Final version ) and a Waves DeEsser on the LeadVocal.
Christian
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