X32 Discussion

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Christian,

I may have missed it, but are you using the firewire output to your DAW? Are you using this as a virtual soundcheck? If so, is this process pretty simple and work well? Which DAW are you using and have you tried multiple DAW's or just one?

Thanks,
Jared

Yes, I routed the recording in Cubase back into the X32. Every signal comes back on the same channel it was recorded before. All you have to do, is to select the card inputs in the "settings" sections. I did a small video about the beta version of the X-Control I got here. It shows also Cubase in playback mode (virtual soundcheck). Sorry no sound, because the crappy Camtasia programm can't record Asio audio. One of the few mispurchase I did:-( In addition the metering is quite "spastic" because my old centrino latop does not have enough CPU power to handle the Firewire audio form the X32, Cubase, XControl and Camtasia simultaniously:-( In the real world the Xremote runs smoothly.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21028604/X32_Editor.mp4

Christian
PS: I almost forgot. I checked SAC, SAWstudio, StudioOne, Reaper and Cubase. It worked with all of these even the Mackie Control emulation of the X32 worked with all.

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Christian,

How do you patch this in the x32 ?

Quite easy. The firewire driver of the X32 grabs automatically all 32 micpre channels. Select your channel(s) you want to enhance with VST plugins in your VST Host (LiveProfessor, SAC, Cuabse...what ever). Than reroute the enhanced signals back into console. Perhaps on channel 25-32. DONE. Be aware of double routings (phase coherency) and set the audio driver below 128 samples to reduce latency.

Be prepared, the especially the newer laptops with Windows7 might not perform so well latency wise. I got an Acer 8935 laptop here, that dosen't run in low latency mode via Firewire. In fact, it is stable with USB at 180 Samples and with Firewire I have to go with 400 samples. I tried different TI FiWi cards and did an intense Windows Tweaking (as a SAC User, I know at least a bit, how to set up a propper audio PC) but this one just sucks. On the other hand, I have two desktop audio PCs, that run smooth with 48 Samples with the X32 over FiWi! So you better check twice, if your computer is able to do realtime audio.
Christian

 

[Jeff Babcock]

re: X32 Discussion

Quite easy. The firewire driver of the X32 grabs automatically all 32 micpre channels. Select your channel(s) you want to enhance with VST plugins in your VST Host (LiveProfessor, SAC, Cuabse...what ever). Than reroute the enhanced signals back into console. Perhaps on channel 25-32. DONE. Be aware of double routings (phase coherency) and set the audio driver below 128 samples to reduce latency.

Christian, so just to confirm.......in doing a VST Host, you must redirect the return to a NEW channel, correct? It is not possible that you can return the processed signal to the original channel (effectively functioning as an insert)? Or are you talking about parallel processing in your example?

 

[Jared Koopman]

re: X32 Discussion

Yes, I routed the recording in Cubase back into the X32. Every signal comes back on the same channel it was recorded before. All you have to do, is to select the card inputs in the "settings" sections. I did a small video about the beta version of the X-Control I got here. It shows also Cubase in playback mode (virtual soundcheck). Sorry no sound, because the crappy Camtasia programm can't record Asio audio. One of the few mispurchase I did:-( In addition the metering is quite "spastic" because my old centrino latop does not have enough CPU power to handle the Firewire audio form the X32, Cubase, XControl and Camtasia simultaniously:-( In the real world the Xremote runs smoothly.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21028604/X32_Editor.mp4

Christian
PS: I almost forgot. I checked SAC, SAWstudio, StudioOne, Reaper and Cubase. It worked with all of these even the Mackie Control emulation of the X32 worked with all.

Thanks!

Has Behringer commented on firewire interface compatibility? For example what time of PCI/PCIe cards will work with the firewire port on the mixer?

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Christian, so just to confirm.......in doing a VST Host, you must redirect the return to a NEW channel, correct? It is not possible that you can return the processed signal to the original channel (effectively functioning as an insert)? Or are you talking about parallel processing in your example?

Hi Jeff,
if you scroll 100 posting back (just kiddin), I also ran into this topic. By now, you can't use the recording interface as a digital insert...BUT I spoke with the R&D and thye gave word, that this will be implemented in an future firmware update and it should be quite easy to do. By now the R&D guys are working hard to cross the finish line with a full manual and a fully operational editor and iPAd app. These things are in focus right now...after that, I thing the digital insert routing should come quite soon.
Christian

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Thanks!

Has Behringer commented on firewire interface compatibility? For example what time of PCI/PCIe cards will work with the firewire port on the mixer?

Excellent question and a very difficult topic. If I would be Uli Behringer I would refuse any words on compatibility concerning firewire cards/laptos and stuff.
To be honest, the whole audio computer (especially with laptops) stuff is an absolut mess! Two examples:

Once I bought a laptop, that was suggested by the forums admin of the RME-Audio forum. It had TI chipssets thoughout so I bought it and never got it to work. :-( Turns out, that the maufactor exchanged some hardwareparts in comparison to the laptop, of the forums admin bought four months ago. To sum it up: If even RME does not recommend any hardware (PCs) anymore (this is their policy now!), then we are all screwed! Solution:
If you want to make sure, that your computer will perform 100% you should buy a turnkey system from a professional DAW builder, unless you a friend of "trail&error"!

ADK Pro Audio| Digital Audio workstations, Pro Audio Laptops, Pro audio interfaces, Pro audio software, DAW.
Home - DAW PLUS

Behringer will soon face the fact, that some user will blame Behringer that the firewire recording card does not work right. EVERY audio interface manufator has to deal with this problem. Most of the time, it is not the audio interface - it is the computer, that sucks! There are so many pitfalls, why a computer does not work as it should.. just to mention a few:

+IQR conflicts
+graphic cards, that stomp on your audio
+Windows default settings
+wrong firewire chipsets (be sure you have an Texas Instrument chipset or one a the latest via, AVIOD 02Micro and Riccoh chipsets)
+wrong driver (sometimes you better go the fiwi legancy driver)
and so on and so on....
+Windows7...turn OFF the Aero design (this turns off the Windows boarderpadding). Than...the newest mainbords (for the i5 and i7 cpu's) if the have a PCI slot anyway, most of the PCI slots are connected over a bridge now to the PCI bus. So you better go with an PCIe card, but there a not so many PCIe card with TI chipsets on the market....like I said...it is a mess and everyone will tell you different story about it. If you want to hear my personal view to this:

Use Windows XP and tweak it after this advices-->
SAC - Tweaking Windows
Buy this PCI card-->
EX-6450 - FireWire PCI card with 2+1 ports (TI chip) [EX-6450] : EXSYS - Selling of : FireWire, Bluetooth, PCI -, ISA - & Moxa cards, PCMCIA, USB Products, External Enclosures, Serial ATA, The specialist for Computer Products
this "could/should" work

I do have two desktop PCs (both Core2Cuo, intel E8400 CPU, Asus Mainboard, the FiWi card mentioned above and Windows tweaking), both of them run 32channel in&out from/to the X32 with 48 Samples over firewire with no problems.
On the other hand I got a new Acer 8935 laptop with TI FiWi expresscard and Windows7 tweaked to the optimum for realtime audio and this thing just sucks!
My crappy old ASUS A6ja laptop (from the stone age) runs fine with 92samples over the build in firewire port. Go figure!

Tomorrow a friend of mine will come to see the X32. He will bring his MacBook Pro and we will see, how this works with the X32 over firewire.
Christian

 

[Dave Korman]

re: X32 Discussion

Consumer grade wireless networks are very long latency and not consistent not to mention at a much lower data rate than wired.
I would not expect it to work.

AES50 IS NOT ETHERNET! it happens to use the same physical layer (layer 1 - i.e. connectors, cabling and electrical signalling) as Ethernet/IEEE802.3, probably because it's (a) quite reliable and (b) cheap as chips. However, it does not use the Ethernet datalink layer (layer 2), which defines the format of the Ethernet packet, so it cannot be carried over normal Ethernet switches, and it does not use the internet protocol (IP) at the routing layer (layer 3) so it cannot be carried over any type of IP router, wireless or otherwise.

There are very good reasons for this; both Ethernet layer 2 and IP layer 3 are probabilistic in nature - they do no guarantee to deliver a packet and when they do, it is not possible to predict exactly when - latency and jitter are indeterminate and vary depending on multiple factors. This would not be good for audio.

Whilst it is possible to design Ethernet and IP networks with very low latency (I do it for a living), this still only get down to 100's of microseconds, and there is still significant spread and jitter in the latencies obtained.

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Christian, if the whole FiWi environmemt is such a mess, and any given non specialist user will have to be somewhat lucky to make it work, are we better to rely on USB?
What are the limitations when using USB?
Are the FiWi problems related mainly to two way live applications, or does these issues also affect recording tasks where buffer size and latency isn't a problem?

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Christian, if the whole FiWi environmemt is such a mess, and any given non specialist user will have to be somewhat lucky to make it work, are we better to rely on USB?
What are the limitations when using USB?
Are the FiWi problems related mainly to two way live applications, or does these issues also affect recording tasks where buffer size and latency isn't a problem?

Well, I missed the point somehow. Most of the problems are not occuring or become even obvious not until you drive the Asio driver at very low latencies. You are right with pointing out, that for basic recording or virtual soundcheck, you could just raise the buffer size to the maximum, what makes it way more easier for the PC to handle audio. I was basically referring to low latency settings, that you will need, when you work with vst plugins for your live sound.
BTW: That the X32 soundcard is even capable of going low than 48 Samples is absolutly sensational! As far as I know, just the RME firefaces can go that low without losing any audio buffers or producing asio errors. If you want to do virtual soundcheck or just a 32track live recording, just hook up the X32 via USB and set the buffer size to 1000 or more samples...this should work flawlessly with almost any computer.
Like I said before. I recorded 32 Tracks even with my un-tweaked Acer One netbook (ATOM CPU only!) - no problem at all.
These tipps I mentioned, are only for these nerdy guys (like me), that want to use vst-plugins in a live enviroment.
The USB driver is in general easier to handle but it can't go as low as the FiWi drive concerning latency. The lowest setting is 48Samples, but it has a twice as big security buffer outputwise, so even at the 48 Sample settings, you will end with an overall latency for about 14ms, which is at least for me a bit too high for live sound use.
Sorry for the confusion, I hope you get the picture what I was trying to say
Christian

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Sorry for the confusion, I hope you get the picture what I was trying to say
Christian

No, it wasn't you that confused the issue, it was me, what you wrote was perfectly clear.
So basically, if you don't need low latency for running insert effects, any FiWi will do, and you'll get by with USB, that is good to know.
My only FiWi Texas chipset Windows xp laptop is quite old, I wonder if it is powerfull enough to let me run Autotune in Liveprofessor :razz:.
I have some dynamic filter settings that I have tweaked for individual performers, I would like to run them as inserts of course, but I can also see myself running Liveprofessor for send effects only, just tweaking predelays and what have you to compensate for latency. This would at least free up some processing in the X32, and thus not wasting any of the effects channels on stuff that isn't time-critical.

 

[Yonatan Pandelaki]

re: X32 Discussion

I just registered since i'm also very interested in X32. So hello everybody, and thanks a lot to Christian for providing us so much informations.

@ Per
Basically for any audio usage, i won't use any other firewire ports, TI Chipset only. The others often fail even with huge latency. That's just my experience though.
Yes, Firewire in PC environment is a mess. I believe it also has something to do with the diversity of the mainboards available, with all variations they have.
But when it works, it's absolutely beautiful, because just like Christian said, you're able to go much lower with the latency. Remember that the power of your CPU is also important in order to make a performance with ultra low latency.

BTW, yes it's quite impressive indeed, that Behringer made it to be able to have that low latency. Didn't expect that.

My question now would be this: I have absolutely no idea about AES, or Ethernet, but one thing i don't understand, are you able to remote X32 with a laptop via Wifi or not? And how to do that? Sorry if it already mentioned somewhere, i tried to read every post already.

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

I just registered since i'm also very interested in X32. So hello everybody, and thanks a lot to Christian for providing us so much informations.

@ Per
Basically for any audio usage, i won't use any other firewire ports, TI Chipset only. The others often fail even with huge latency. That's just my experience though.
Yes, Firewire in PC environment is a mess. I believe it also has something to do with the diversity of the mainboards available, with all variations they have.
But when it works, it's absolutely beautiful, because just like Christian said, you're able to go much lower with the latency. Remember that the power of your CPU is also important in order to make a performance with ultra low latency.

BTW, yes it's quite impressive indeed, that Behringer made it to be able to have that low latency. Didn't expect that.

My question now would be this: I have absolutely no idea about AES, or Ethernet, but one thing i don't understand, are you able to remote X32 with a laptop via Wifi or not? And how to do that? Sorry if it already mentioned somewhere, i tried to read every post already.

Thanks ionosphere for chiming in
The X32 is multiclient able, so you need a wifi router and connect that with the Ethernet connector of the X32. Now you can remote it with the X-Control (editor software) or even with your iPad and the upcomming Behringer X32 iPad app. Tomorrow I check the wifi setting with a router, cause on saturday I got a gig, where the foh is actually ON the stage.8O~8-O~:shock:
Last saturday I did this gig with my SAC system, now I'm thinking about to bring the X32 and remote it over wifi.

Christian

 

[Nick Davis]

re: X32 Discussion

Excellent question and a very difficult topic. If I would be Uli Behringer I would refuse any words on compatibility concerning firewire cards/laptos and stuff.To be honest, the whole audio computer (especially with laptops) stuff is an absolut mess! Two examples:Once I bought a laptop, that was suggested by the forums admin of the RME-Audio forum. It had TI chipssets thoughout so I bought it and never got it to work. :-( Turns out, that the maufactor exchanged some hardwareparts in comparison to the laptop, of the forums admin bought four months ago. To sum it up: If even RME does not recommend any hardware (PCs) anymore (this is their policy now!), then we are all screwed! Solution:If you want to make sure, that your computer will perform 100% you should buy a turnkey system from a professional DAW builder, unless you a friend of "trail&error"!ADK Pro Audio| Digital Audio workstations, Pro Audio Laptops, Pro audio interfaces, Pro audio software, DAW.Home - DAW PLUSBehringer will soon face the fact, that some user will blame Behringer that the firewire recording card does not work right. EVERY audio interface manufator has to deal with this problem. Most of the time, it is not the audio interface - it is the computer, that sucks! There are so many pitfalls, why a computer does not work as it should.. just to mention a few: +IQR conflicts +graphic cards, that stomp on your audio+Windows default settings+wrong firewire chipsets (be sure you have an Texas Instrument chipset or one a the latest via, AVIOD 02Micro and Riccoh chipsets)+wrong driver (sometimes you better go the fiwi legancy driver)and so on and so on....+Windows7...turn OFF the Aero design (this turns off the Windows boarderpadding). Than...the newest mainbords (for the i5 and i7 cpu's) if the have a PCI slot anyway, most of the PCI slots are connected over a bridge now to the PCI bus. So you better go with an PCIe card, but there a not so many PCIe card with TI chipsets on the market....like I said...it is a mess and everyone will tell you different story about it. If you want to hear my personal view to this:Use Windows XP and tweak it after this advices--> SAC - Tweaking WindowsBuy this PCI card-->EX-6450 - FireWire PCI card with 2+1 ports (TI chip) [EX-6450] : EXSYS - Selling of : FireWire, Bluetooth, PCI -, ISA - & Moxa cards, PCMCIA, USB Products, External Enclosures, Serial ATA, The specialist for Computer Productsthis "could/should" workI do have two desktop PCs (both Core2Cuo, intel E8400 CPU, Asus Mainboard, the FiWi card mentioned above and Windows tweaking), both of them run 32channel in&out from/to the X32 with 48 Samples over firewire with no problems.On the other hand I got a new Acer 8935 laptop with TI FiWi expresscard and Windows7 tweaked to the optimum for realtime audio and this thing just sucks!My crappy old ASUS A6ja laptop (from the stone age) runs fine with 92samples over the build in firewire port. Go figure!Tomorrow a friend of mine will come to see the X32. He will bring his MacBook Pro and we will see, how this works with the X32 over firewire.Christian

All seems a bit hit and miss - again I would ave liked an adat interface to use my (up to date) rock solid simple hard disk recorder!!! But to be realistic nothing ever provides features to suit everyone!

 

[Jim King]

re: X32 Discussion

Can't you take the ADAT out of the back of the S16 stage box? That'll let you capture the pre-everything signal to mix later.

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Can't you take the ADAT out of the back of the S16 stage box? That'll let you capture the pre-everything signal to mix later.

This will do the trick!
But again...use USB or the FiWi driver, set the buffersize way up and you are fine (for just recording or virtual soundcheck). If I can record 4x two hour gigs (all with 32 channels) with an Acer One netbook via USB, nearly every computer will work. The pitfalls I montioned are only evident, when going in ultra low latency mode (below 128 samples). You don't have to go so low with the buffersize, if you just want to recored a show.
Christian

 

[James Drake]

re: X32 Discussion

I joined this forum just to learn more about the X32!

Are there any fans on the X32 or S16?

How is clocking handled with AES50 in general and how does Behringer implement it? I see no wordclock inputs anywhere and would like to know how you would tie X32 mixers or S16 convertors into a larger system.

Thanks!

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

Hi James,
only the X32 has a fan, but you won't recognize it. I never got it to work, so I taped all ventig slots on my desk and after a while it starts...very low in volume. The R&D said to me, that the fan is basically hardly ever needed, the board would work even without it. The s-16 has no fan. Clocking over AES50 is easy. Every piece of gear (s-16) locks itself into the sync, no need to dive into settings or setups. The recordingcard (respectively the X32) is master and your DAW locks in as slave.
Christian

 

[Nick Davis]

re: X32 Discussion

Can't you take the ADAT out of the back of the S16 stage box? That'll let you capture the pre-everything signal to mix later.

Hi yes - realise this - hence see my earlier post ( and Robs ) re wondering re the architecture. The only issue here is that the recorder would need to be near the stage boxes - like to keep an eye on things and when the chance do an occassional save.

The reason have not switched to PC is worries about the stability - and Christian's post made me more unsure of this route.

But as there are rumours that Behringer are developing a direct out to external HD interface - this would be ideal.

As I said not a deal breaker - and undoubtedly there are more people who want a firewire and Usb interface rather than adat - there are compromises with all equipment.

Nick


Thomman:
"This item has unfortunately sold out Behringer X 32 (expected deilvery date: 17.09.2012 )"
not sure if this is a further dealy for first batch of stock or for the next batch they are expecting!

 

[Christian Boche]

re: X32 Discussion

The reason have not switched to PC is worries about the stability - and Christian's post made me more unsure of this route.

Arrg...what have I done!?:blush:
There is no need to worry! Just use the usb port, raise the buffer size and I will work...for sure!
If it works with my Acer One, it will work with every laptop or desktop PC build in the last decade.
Don't forget, that the recording straight to USB (probably with 24tracks) will also come sometime.

Sold out at Thomann means, that they have lot's of preorders, where all their doards are going to. I dosen't mean imho that they don't got consoles at all.
Christian

 

[Per Søvik]

re: X32 Discussion

Hi yes - realise this - hence see my earlier post ( and Robs ) re wondering re the architecture. The only issue here is that the recorder would need to be near the stage boxes - like to keep an eye on things and when the chance do an occassional save.

The reason have not switched to PC is worries about the stability - and Christian's post made me more unsure of this route.

But as there are rumours that Behringer are developing a direct out to external HD interface - this would be ideal.

As I said not a deal breaker - and undoubtedly there are more people who want a firewire and Usb interface rather than adat - there are compromises with all equipment.

Nick


Thomman:
"This item has unfortunately sold out Behringer X 32 (expected deilvery date: 17.09.2012 )"
not sure if this is a further dealy for first batch of stock or for the next batch they are expecting!

I believe that is the second batch, have not had any word from Thomann about delay of the first batch, shipping to customers on or just after august 13th.

As for recording stability, with everything that can disturb or interrupt turned off, and the psu plugged in, I've recorded without a hitch for years, usb - two interfaces - 16 channels. Even when the interfaces have gone offline because of powerfailure, the recording has still been intact. I have disabled all automatic updates, powersaving, screensaver, WiFi and the lid close switch. No extra tricks has been needed, and from Christian's experience, recording 32 channels shouldn't be any different. Once my harddisk got pretty full, after leaving everything running for six hours, and I have once experienced some out of memory issue, so I guess it makes sense to stop and save at intermissions before going outside for a smoke.

Arrg...what have I done!?:blush:

Again, not your fault, the blame is entirely on me for bringing recording into the FiWi interface discussion, sorry :?~:-?~:???: