X32 Discussion

Auto-Mixing

Dear all,

auto-mixing is a great subject as in fact we have been doing some substantial research over the past years. Our auto-mixing engine is integrated in our new EUROCOM 6000 Install Series.

Eurocom - MA6008

While we have made use of the basic Dugan principle which is now public domain, we also improved it quite a bit. We're using some powerful DSP technology and complex signal analysis for our "adaptive proportional gain sharing" technology. For around US$ 600 you can get a complete 8-channel auto-mixer which can be expanded up to 32 channels. Some of you might want to check it out as we encourage you to compare the MA6000 with the most expensive units on the market.

We are currently executing a feasibility study how to integrate the auto-mixing algorithm into the X32 but we cannot confirm a timeline.

Software development is not trivial as it requires a tremendous amount of testing. I am sure you will appreciate that the X32 has been extremely stable right from the beginning and it is our utmost priority to deliver fully mature firmware upgrades also in the future.

As indicated several times, we will introduce a lot more features for the X32 Series but this will take time.

I promise you that the X32 will remain an exciting journey for many years to come.

Warm regards

Uli

P.S. For people interested in the history of auto-mixing, here is a good overview.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automixer
 
Last edited:
Re: X32 Discussion

Robert Feldman said:
I've reviewed the SIM files and would like to mirror the tests on the Audio Precision (the analyzers that most manufacturers use for such measurements). To do this, we'd like have one of your X32s shipped to us here in Las Vegas. Console “16” sounds like a good candidate because of the higher reported noise floor, but any one will work.
Click to expand...

Hi Robert,

After thinking about this further, a few thoughts:

1) You examining the console(s) to see if you can replicate the measurements is of course fine.

2) One purpose of my measurement activity was to find measurable results to confirm or disprove what I and many others here have repeatedly heard with our ears. It is confusing why you or anyone else who can hear as high as 6kHz in a quiet space using speakers capable of reproducing that not-very-high frequency are not hearing it now, regardless of the presence or absence of test equipment.

3) The other purpose was to see if it was only one or two consoles, or consoles of a certain age or serial number range, that were making the objectionable noise. I believe I have shown that a relatively random sample (consoles that were chosen by a warehouse crew and sent to me at two different times with a mild range of serial numbers) shows the phenomenon to be widespread if not universal, and that there is not much variation between consoles regarding that problem. This is what my ears tell me, too. With the exception of .16, they all sound and measure alike*. And maybe that's a reason why .16 is not a good one for you, although sending it to you would get it away from me. You can have another one if you deliver a fully working replacement at pickup, or if you can wait until after the first week of March.

4) If you don't listen in a quiet space, or if you cannot hear high frequencies (there is a range of individual capability due to a variety of factors), or if the speaker/amp combination does not evenly reproduce the frequency range then it won't be heard, but doesn't mean it isn't there.

5) It's also important that the Monitor pot is wide open, which is unity gain and not into any kind of increased amplification. The output is perceptually silent at lower settings, and I didn't bother to measure it that way.

So, again, it is mysterious why test equipment is required to note that there is a problem. I don't doubt it may be necessary to solve the problem.

I will half-seriously suggest that a more productive investment might be to have me come to Las Vegas and tell you if I hear the problem on the consoles and listening situation you have available, and, if not, help you figure out why it's not obvious there when it's obvious here?

Thanks again for the nice comments.
Dan

*The 6kHz peak of .16 is at the same amplitude as all the other consoles, but the increased noise floor makes it not stick up above the curve as much as on the other consoles. And even though 6kHz seems to be the most obnoxious peak on all consoles, there are plenty of other frequency peaks, particularly around 500Hz and 12kHz, that are equally troublesome intellectually although not perceptually.

PS I didn't mention that the 6kHz peak lowers to 5 something kHz when the console is set to 44.1.
 
Re: 2.0 Feature Request

Joe Villegas said:
Anyone knows why the audio signal still present in the FX return?
Click to expand...

Guessing it's because the connection to the returns is unbreakable.

I posted the screen pic to show that even though this wonderful workaround works, FX 1-4 are clearly different than 5-8. You found one of the differences IMO.

The fact that the returns need to be muted on FX treated this way needs to be added to the original workaround instructions.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Antoon van den Oetelaar said:
Why not, can be usefull? Does it harm you?
Click to expand...

It supposed that if you are using the slot as an insert, the audio signal must flow to the inserted buss or channel (like in a analog desk)
It supposed too that I'm breaking the side-chain selecting the insert option...

I thing that is more usefull have a clean channel with the chance, by example, repeat there a XLR input.

The FX returns doesn't have the input source option...
 
Re: Feature Request Idea

I just brainstormed an idea for a feature request, pertaining to XControl and Presentation mode. I generally leave presentation mode off because I like separate screens showing on the internal and external display - I often like to leave the XControl focused on the meter screen until I need it for another purpose.

Would it be possible to have XControl run independent of the X32 display, but then if a certain event occurs (for example double tapping the EQ View button) have XControl switch to the applicable window as well?
 
Re: Auto-Mixing

Uli Behringer said:
Dear all,.......................We are currently executing a feasibility study how to integrate the auto-mixing algorithm into the X32 but we cannot confirm a timeline.

Warm regards

Uli
Click to expand...

Thank you, Uli.

Well, this very welcome post from Mr. Behringer throws a bit of a spanner into the works, regarding implementing the automixer in OSC. I think everyone would agree that having it properly integrated into the console, by the manufacturer, would be a much better way to go.

But I'm very grateful to those who are working on the OSC version, and if it is successful, it might serve us well until automixing is implemented in the X32 by Behringer.

Mick Berg.
 
Last edited:
Whine

Robert Feldman said:
Dear Dan,

Let me start by saying thank you for all of the research and your overwhelming support of the X32. You have made quite an investment in our brand and we are happy that you are part of the Behringer family.

I've reviewed the SIM files and would like to mirror the tests on the Audio Precision (the analyzers that most manufacturers use for such measurements). To do this, we'd like have one of your X32s shipped to us here in Las Vegas. Console “16” sounds like a good candidate because of the higher reported noise floor, but any one will work.

If that's acceptable to you, we can arrange the shipping via your email (just to keep your information confidential). Also, please feel free to PM me to coordinate the shipping via the forum.

Thank you again, Dan, for your continued support.


Kind regards,


FELDMAN Robert
Supervisor, Care Depot
MUSIC Group
Click to expand...
Hi All, Just as a point of note, I checked this on our mixer at church. When the church is empty (apart from me) it s very quiet. No whine on this mixer at 5Khz or anything up to about 12Khz. My hearing begins to drop off after that up to 16Khz so could not comment accurately above about 12, I know because it gets tested every other year. When I was young, in my early twenties I could hear over 20Khz.Mike
 
Re: Whine

FEATURE REQUEST:
Just got the board. The one thing that seems to be a big miss that should be easy to fix is the ability to easily pan a stereo IEM mix. I know I'm not the only one to post this, but I wanted to make sure it was addressed. I think it's especially important to add it to the ipad and the iphone app. If there is a way to do this that I am unaware of, please reply. I would suggest using the even numbered bus (ex bus 2 if bus 1 is left and bus 2 is right side of iem mix). When selecting even bus, center the faders at halfway (-10db) and let them act as the pan control and the 1 bus would still be the fader. As for the app, I'm sure you could add 1 more screen on the fader swipe landscape mode that would have pan knobs or something similar. Thanks for providing this opportunity to give feedback. Mike
 
Re: Whine

ok i just noticed my second unit from thomanns has the same fault as first ( must be same batch ) with noisy 16-32 channels also got whine on headphone amp and a whine (with all channels muted) changing fader banks to 16-32 so will contact support.But will say this desk is not just a game changer but a life changer :-)and couldnt be happier with it ...............well apart from i would like to be able to assign busses to be monitored with headphone amp instead of soloing them ( drummer has wired iem and saves bringing amp to gigs as room is a premium) and a global disable dynamics button for a/b ing in studio
ps enjoyed reading this thread as theres some talented people on here and to see how quick behringer reply to posts is just outstanding .
 
Re: Whine

Mike Gibson said:
Hi All, Just as a point of note, I checked this on our mixer at church. When the church is empty (apart from me) it s very quiet. No whine on this mixer at 5Khz or anything up to about 12Khz. My hearing begins to drop off after that up to 16Khz so could not comment accurately above about 12, I know because it gets tested every other year. When I was young, in my early twenties I could hear over 20Khz.Mike
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

This is from the monitor output XLR's, with the monitor pot wide open and the gain within the monitor section view (left encoder) at unity? Console at 48k sampling rate?

If so, that is good news, as it shows some consoles don't have the problem.

If from any other outputs, this is not news, as none of the other analog outputs (besides headphones) have it IME.

Thanks for reporting. Dan
 
Re: Whine

Hi Uli, ( or some one how can tell me :-) )

do you have for us a anticipated Date for the release for Firmware 2.0 ?

Are there steps intended between 1.12 to 2.0 ?

Thanks

Glenn
 
X32 Improvements !!! Ver 2.0

For Ver 2.0...

How about giving us more mix busses, like instead of needing to use a mix bus to feed the first 4 FX engines, create dedicated FX busses, this is probably the only area where the X32 is behind the ball compared to other mixers, I was at Namm last month and spoke with the lead designer of the X32 as well as the FX programmer about this...

The other feature is daisy chaining two X32 to get 64 channels, and if that is not possible at least daisy chain the core or Rack to an X32 so we can expand to 48 channels.

Implement a thunderbolt I/O card.

How about finally putting EQ on those FX returns, Behringer's FX programmer told me EQ on buss sends is the same thing, definitively not !!! We need EQ on FX returns, actually we need full channel control on all busses/Auxes - EQ+Dynamics (a la Presonus).

This is an exciting time as we are able to work with these technologies, I congratulate Behringer for their work (as I did in NAMM), but they have stirred the pot and now as everybody is playing catch-up its time to put the pedal to the metal.

Thanks Behringer, keep it up !!!
 
Last edited:
Re: Auto-Mixing

John Chiara said:
Have a show tomorrow in a really small club with a touring National. The BE wanted a Midas Pro2... He is getting the X32. I will report back!
Click to expand...

Well, the band insisted and the radio station is renting a Pro2... All to run a 3 piece band throught a JBL JRX system with the FOH position 5 ft in front of the stage in a room that might hold 100 people.! I was gonna multitrack the band but now I think I will do the minimum work and watch this cluster develope from the sidelines.
 
Re: Whine

MIKE LEEP JR said:
FEATURE REQUEST:
Just got the board. The one thing that seems to be a big miss that should be easy to fix is the ability to easily pan a stereo IEM mix. I know I'm not the only one to post this, but I wanted to make sure it was addressed. I think it's especially important to add it to the ipad and the iphone app. If there is a way to do this that I am unaware of, please reply. I would suggest using the even numbered bus (ex bus 2 if bus 1 is left and bus 2 is right side of iem mix). When selecting even bus, center the faders at halfway (-10db) and let them act as the pan control and the 1 bus would still be the fader. As for the app, I'm sure you could add 1 more screen on the fader swipe landscape mode that would have pan knobs or something similar. Thanks for providing this opportunity to give feedback. Mike
Click to expand...

please oh please oh please oh please add this!!!!

please!!!


this one missing thing is holding me up from buying 4 new X32s and converting our whole monitor and post production rig over to this. Once this feature is added, then using the console itself as an IEM mixer becomes a great step up from using the p16 system. and makes the X32Rack and X32Core even more compelling purchases.

did i say please? i'll say it again.

please.


edit: Just noticed the subject line for this. and yeah, it does sound a bit like i'm whining doesn't it? :)
 
Last edited:
Re: Auto-Mixing

John Chiara said:
Well, the band insisted and the radio station is renting a Pro2... All to run a 3 piece band throught a JBL JRX system with the FOH position 5 ft in front of the stage in a room that might hold 100 people.! I was gonna multitrack the band but now I think I will do the minimum work and watch this cluster develope from the sidelines.
Click to expand...

That'll show them.... :-(

JR
 
Re: Auto-Mixing

John Roberts said:
That'll show them.... :-(

JR
Click to expand...

Just to clarify..I got my roommate this house sound gig do they asked me to help out...this gig started out last week with me just adding subs to small house system. Then it included the console, then an extra snake, then mics and stands and then the multitrack recording from my X 32. I spent 2 hours reprogramming the board exactly to their input list and setting up a Reaper project for their input list...all with 1 1/2 hr loadin and setup.
Actually now, as of an hour ago.. I AM providing all the gear as the band thinks there won't be enough time to integrate another variable.
 
Re: Auto-Mixing

John Chiara said:
Just to clarify..I got my roommate this house sound gig do they asked me to help out...this gig started out last week with me just adding subs to small house system. Then it included the console, then an extra snake, then mics and stands and then the multitrack recording from my X 32. I spent 2 hours reprogramming the board exactly to their input list and setting up a Reaper project for their input list...all with 1 1/2 hr loadin and setup.
Actually now, as of an hour ago.. I AM providing all the gear as the band thinks there won't be enough time to integrate another variable.
Click to expand...


Sounds like it's time to invoke the "nickel and dime" clause and charge for all the wasted time in dealing with changes.
 
Top Bottom