Re: Suggested Modification to Producer Console
Yes this is what I missed also when I looked into it. Would for sure be a plus.
~~:smile:
Yes this is what I missed also when I looked into it. Would for sure be a plus.
~~:smile:X32 Discussion
- Thread starter Rob Spence
- Start date
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Jim,
Thanks for this good note, which is just what I wanted to hear.
I appreciate the PM and offer to discuss offline, but think that this is an issue of interest to the group and would prefer to discuss it here. If there is a reason you would prefer not to, I'd be happy to discuss offline with the understanding that I can report back to the group what we find.
To partially answer your questions about my application, note that this has only happened once to me so far, and that I could try to replicate it in my shop and will, but am trying to do a year's worth of bookkeeping in a few days so my accountant will have some way to tell me how much to pay the government next month. Posting in this thread has been almost my only relaxation the past few days.
That said, here is a pic of the location where it happened, and some closeups of a snake with the same components of the snake on which it occurred, and I'll highlight the differences:
The first one shows the mix position, with the flown snake coming down from the ceiling and then going under the line of tables to get to the console. The guy on the left at the console is "my" awesome FOH engineer, Allan; not sure who is on the right or on stage.
As mentioned earlier in a post, the table legs are kind of a ] on its side, so there is a low space underneath through which I ran the snake. The gap is maybe 2 or 3 inches tall.
The snake has three components: a yellow 12/5 SOOW carrying UPS'd power for the console, and a separate circuit of AC for incidental usage; a four-pair XLR analog cable for Clearcom or whatever; and in this case two Belden Data Tuff Ethercon cables.
Here is a recap of what I wrote in reply to Michael Roper, who actually brought up the issue and reminded me of this incident:
=====================================
TecNec Neutrik Ethercon / Belden Data Tuff CAT5e Cable Assemblies by TecNec CAT-5 Cables at Markertek.com
The mess* was running under some tables that had legs that looked like ] laying on its side, making a low space below the crossbar. The cable mess was kind of coiled but not kinked, and I pulled on it to pull it through the space under the leg assembly to straighten it out.
The PA which was on, emitted a burst of pink noise sounding stuff, and stopped when I stopped pulling. I pulled again, and it did it again.
My FOH engineer, who is one of the most experienced PA techs in the NW if not the world, and I looked at each other, and he was as baffled as I. He said maybe the dynamic kinking of the cable was enough to interrupt the sync? But neither of us had a better explanation, and the cable had tested out OK earlier with a Greenlee tester. I bought this cable because it purports to be one of the toughest CAT 5 cables available.
The cable assembly/mess was where it needed to be by that time, and we left it alone, and it performed perfectly for the rest of the 5 days with no more bursts of anything.
=======================================
*For this post, I'll clarify that the "mess" was a group of separate cables running together rather than the taped or coiled mass that I prefer to create. The next couple of pics show the same components, plus one more Data Tuff cable, assembled into a single unit:
This is a different cable in a different location on an equally interesting gig that also deserves a post, but you can see the components perhaps more clearly. The three data cables are twisted into a rope-like thing, and then the two smaller are wrapped around the larger to create a highly visible yet easily manipulate-able object, rather than a collection of separate things. The loose cables of the first snake can get tangled big-time, especially if you add a lighting DMX cable that has to be removed on loadout, as happened to us.
The first snake was like it was because the Gepco Tactical that I'd ordered was out of stock, and the gig had to have snakes, so I got the Belden loose cables for one stage, and some much cheaper Cat 5 without Ethercons from B&H for the other. The snake in these two pictures was at a third stage. No incidents occurred with either the B&H cable or this snake, but I didn't try to pull them under a table and neither was getting stomped on.
The process of coming up with this snake system was interesting to me, and I thought perhaps it would be worth a post, too, as it might be useful to other people. People should let me know if you want to know more, otherwise I won't waste my time on it.
Hope this helped, let me know if you have more questions.
Dan
Hi Jim,
Thanks for this good note, which is just what I wanted to hear.
I appreciate the PM and offer to discuss offline, but think that this is an issue of interest to the group and would prefer to discuss it here. If there is a reason you would prefer not to, I'd be happy to discuss offline with the understanding that I can report back to the group what we find.
To partially answer your questions about my application, note that this has only happened once to me so far, and that I could try to replicate it in my shop and will, but am trying to do a year's worth of bookkeeping in a few days so my accountant will have some way to tell me how much to pay the government next month. Posting in this thread has been almost my only relaxation the past few days.
That said, here is a pic of the location where it happened, and some closeups of a snake with the same components of the snake on which it occurred, and I'll highlight the differences:
The first one shows the mix position, with the flown snake coming down from the ceiling and then going under the line of tables to get to the console. The guy on the left at the console is "my" awesome FOH engineer, Allan; not sure who is on the right or on stage.
As mentioned earlier in a post, the table legs are kind of a ] on its side, so there is a low space underneath through which I ran the snake. The gap is maybe 2 or 3 inches tall.
The snake has three components: a yellow 12/5 SOOW carrying UPS'd power for the console, and a separate circuit of AC for incidental usage; a four-pair XLR analog cable for Clearcom or whatever; and in this case two Belden Data Tuff Ethercon cables.
Here is a recap of what I wrote in reply to Michael Roper, who actually brought up the issue and reminded me of this incident:
=====================================
TecNec Neutrik Ethercon / Belden Data Tuff CAT5e Cable Assemblies by TecNec CAT-5 Cables at Markertek.com
The mess* was running under some tables that had legs that looked like ] laying on its side, making a low space below the crossbar. The cable mess was kind of coiled but not kinked, and I pulled on it to pull it through the space under the leg assembly to straighten it out.
The PA which was on, emitted a burst of pink noise sounding stuff, and stopped when I stopped pulling. I pulled again, and it did it again.
My FOH engineer, who is one of the most experienced PA techs in the NW if not the world, and I looked at each other, and he was as baffled as I. He said maybe the dynamic kinking of the cable was enough to interrupt the sync? But neither of us had a better explanation, and the cable had tested out OK earlier with a Greenlee tester. I bought this cable because it purports to be one of the toughest CAT 5 cables available.
The cable assembly/mess was where it needed to be by that time, and we left it alone, and it performed perfectly for the rest of the 5 days with no more bursts of anything.
=======================================
*For this post, I'll clarify that the "mess" was a group of separate cables running together rather than the taped or coiled mass that I prefer to create. The next couple of pics show the same components, plus one more Data Tuff cable, assembled into a single unit:
This is a different cable in a different location on an equally interesting gig that also deserves a post, but you can see the components perhaps more clearly. The three data cables are twisted into a rope-like thing, and then the two smaller are wrapped around the larger to create a highly visible yet easily manipulate-able object, rather than a collection of separate things. The loose cables of the first snake can get tangled big-time, especially if you add a lighting DMX cable that has to be removed on loadout, as happened to us.
The first snake was like it was because the Gepco Tactical that I'd ordered was out of stock, and the gig had to have snakes, so I got the Belden loose cables for one stage, and some much cheaper Cat 5 without Ethercons from B&H for the other. The snake in these two pictures was at a third stage. No incidents occurred with either the B&H cable or this snake, but I didn't try to pull them under a table and neither was getting stomped on.
The process of coming up with this snake system was interesting to me, and I thought perhaps it would be worth a post, too, as it might be useful to other people. People should let me know if you want to know more, otherwise I won't waste my time on it.
Hope this helped, let me know if you have more questions.
Dan
Re: X32 Discussion
Certainly, the data cable shouldn't be wrapped with anything carrying mains power. It's probably on the hairy edge of being operational.
Certainly, the data cable shouldn't be wrapped with anything carrying mains power. It's probably on the hairy edge of being operational.
Re: X32 Discussion
I can understand that an audio cable should be separated from a mains cable - but seeing as you can now run ethernet through the mains sockets in a house does this apply to digital data? - undoubtedly I am wrong!
I can understand that an audio cable should be separated from a mains cable - but seeing as you can now run ethernet through the mains sockets in a house does this apply to digital data? - undoubtedly I am wrong!
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Re: X32 Discussion
This is actually not true for balanced lines. They are fine running next to AC.
This is actually not true for balanced lines. They are fine running next to AC.
Re: X32 Discussion
I have an interesting problem. It could simply be that I'm missing something somewhere too. I have a performing arts center installation with an X32 and 3 S16 units. I'm using 2 S16 boxes run from the console's AES50A port then into the first S16's AES50A port then out of the same unit's AES50B port into the second S16's AES50A port for stage inputs and outputs. In other words, all daisy-chained from the X32 AES50A. The third S16 serves as system outputs to processing/amp rack and is connected to the console's AES50B port via the S16's AES50A port. Here's the rub - I've got a line run to an alternate mix position in the house that is connected to the third (last mentioned) S16's AES50B port. For some reason, I cannot obtain sync between the console and #3 S16 when connected from the AES50B port on the console to the AES50B port on #3 S16. Does anyone know why? It's not cabling, because I can connect just fine with this alternate cable run if I connect to S16 #3's AES50A port. What am I doing wrong?
BTW, I'm really enjoying the flexibility of the system vs. the cost!
Thanks!
Chris
I have an interesting problem. It could simply be that I'm missing something somewhere too. I have a performing arts center installation with an X32 and 3 S16 units. I'm using 2 S16 boxes run from the console's AES50A port then into the first S16's AES50A port then out of the same unit's AES50B port into the second S16's AES50A port for stage inputs and outputs. In other words, all daisy-chained from the X32 AES50A. The third S16 serves as system outputs to processing/amp rack and is connected to the console's AES50B port via the S16's AES50A port. Here's the rub - I've got a line run to an alternate mix position in the house that is connected to the third (last mentioned) S16's AES50B port. For some reason, I cannot obtain sync between the console and #3 S16 when connected from the AES50B port on the console to the AES50B port on #3 S16. Does anyone know why? It's not cabling, because I can connect just fine with this alternate cable run if I connect to S16 #3's AES50A port. What am I doing wrong?
BTW, I'm really enjoying the flexibility of the system vs. the cost!
Thanks!
Chris
Re: X32 Discussion
AFAIK you can't go into an S16 B port, only the A port. Am I understanding correctly what you are doing?
AFAIK you can't go into an S16 B port, only the A port. Am I understanding correctly what you are doing?
Re: X32 Discussion
This has not been my understanding to quote from an SOS article
"Mains cables carry relatively high alternating currents that can be induced into audio cables running alongside them, even if the audio cable is well screened. The longer the distance the cables run alongside each other, the greater the amount of interference (usually hum) that will be induced into the signal cable. When audio and mains cables must cross, try to arrange the crossing to be at right angles, as this is the angle of minimum coupling." I understood this to apply to balanced cables as well as unbalanced the latter obviously being more prone to this.
but the issue is whether a mains cable would interfere with a digital data cable!
This has not been my understanding to quote from an SOS article
"Mains cables carry relatively high alternating currents that can be induced into audio cables running alongside them, even if the audio cable is well screened. The longer the distance the cables run alongside each other, the greater the amount of interference (usually hum) that will be induced into the signal cable. When audio and mains cables must cross, try to arrange the crossing to be at right angles, as this is the angle of minimum coupling." I understood this to apply to balanced cables as well as unbalanced the latter obviously being more prone to this.
but the issue is whether a mains cable would interfere with a digital data cable!
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Re: X32 Discussion
Yep, I think you're understanding. Is that limitation documented somewhere? If so, I missed it.
Yep, I think you're understanding. Is that limitation documented somewhere? If so, I missed it.
Re: X32 Discussion
While it's not ideal running signal cables (balanced or not) next to AC cables, there often is little choice. And in practice, it's usually not a problem.
While it's not ideal running signal cables (balanced or not) next to AC cables, there often is little choice. And in practice, it's usually not a problem.
Re: X32 Discussion
The article is correct in that it only mentions screening. The screen (shield) is not what solves the problem, it's the twisted pair. Screening is only good at higher frequencies IIRC.
And hum is a low-frequency phenomenon. The design of Common Mode Rejection circuits (the first thing that the signal hits when it enters a device, whether a transformer or an electronically balanced circuit) has vastly improved in the last 20 years or so, and the handling of the pin 1 problem clarified and brought to wide attention by the late, great Neil Muncy, as well as the improvement in lighting dimmer circuits, has reduced to almost negligible the problems the article is referring to. Mostly.
Other than that, the quoted article is correct...
The article is correct in that it only mentions screening. The screen (shield) is not what solves the problem, it's the twisted pair. Screening is only good at higher frequencies IIRC.
And hum is a low-frequency phenomenon. The design of Common Mode Rejection circuits (the first thing that the signal hits when it enters a device, whether a transformer or an electronically balanced circuit) has vastly improved in the last 20 years or so, and the handling of the pin 1 problem clarified and brought to wide attention by the late, great Neil Muncy, as well as the improvement in lighting dimmer circuits, has reduced to almost negligible the problems the article is referring to. Mostly.
Other than that, the quoted article is correct...
Re: X32 Discussion
It's earlier in this thread. You just need to read it!
~:-D~:grin:
It's earlier in this thread. You just need to read it!
~:-D~:grin:Re: X32 Discussion
Yes personally never had any particular problems - the only reason I mentioned it was that though there are (were!) potential issues with running an analogue cable next to a mains cable , I was questioning whether there is any issue with running a digital cable next to a mains cable ( other than safety!) as suggested by the post I was replying to.
Yes personally never had any particular problems - the only reason I mentioned it was that though there are (were!) potential issues with running an analogue cable next to a mains cable , I was questioning whether there is any issue with running a digital cable next to a mains cable ( other than safety!) as suggested by the post I was replying to.
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Re: X32 Discussion
Running mic-level snake on top of 200' of feeder at full load (125 amps/leg) might not be the best idea. Running FOH power attached to the drive snake? No problem. Running FOH power attached to the mic snake? Not likely to be a problem. This presumes that all connections are balanced. The only time induced hum has been an issue for me was when the lampies dumped their feeder pile on top of my mic snake. The harmonic content on the neutral seems to radiate nicely at 50% dimmer level. The fix was to free the snake from beneath the 4/0 spaghetti and move it about 6" to the side.
Our drive snakes are 250' long and each has either 8/5 or 10/4 running the length. No inductive hum. Smaller combo snakes like 150'x24x4 have 12/3 and no inductive hum. FOH current draw is lower than it used to be (hence the 8/5) now that Big Analog Mixers are are requested infrequently, but over the last 30 years I can't think of a time when the FOH power run was detrimental to the audio.
YMMV.
Running mic-level snake on top of 200' of feeder at full load (125 amps/leg) might not be the best idea. Running FOH power attached to the drive snake? No problem. Running FOH power attached to the mic snake? Not likely to be a problem. This presumes that all connections are balanced. The only time induced hum has been an issue for me was when the lampies dumped their feeder pile on top of my mic snake. The harmonic content on the neutral seems to radiate nicely at 50% dimmer level. The fix was to free the snake from beneath the 4/0 spaghetti and move it about 6" to the side.
Our drive snakes are 250' long and each has either 8/5 or 10/4 running the length. No inductive hum. Smaller combo snakes like 150'x24x4 have 12/3 and no inductive hum. FOH current draw is lower than it used to be (hence the 8/5) now that Big Analog Mixers are are requested infrequently, but over the last 30 years I can't think of a time when the FOH power run was detrimental to the audio.
YMMV.
Re: Monitor out noise
Dear Shane and DeJan,
Just to confirm, we did have an issue in our early consoles that required a cable re-route to resolve the noise issue. We have a service directive that I can provide, but I must insist that this is completed by a qualified technician in your area. If need assistance with this, please send me a PM and I will be glad to help in any way possible.
Pat Ferdig
VP, Care
MUSIC Group
Dear Shane and DeJan,
Just to confirm, we did have an issue in our early consoles that required a cable re-route to resolve the noise issue. We have a service directive that I can provide, but I must insist that this is completed by a qualified technician in your area. If need assistance with this, please send me a PM and I will be glad to help in any way possible.
Pat Ferdig
VP, Care
MUSIC Group
Re: X32 Discussion
My reply to Aaron seems to have taken an unexpected tangent! Perhaps I should edit to remove the bit about analogue cables and mains cables to read
"seeing as you can now run ethernet through the mains sockets in a house will running a digiatal audio cable next to the mains cause any issues ? - undoubtedly I am wrong!"
My reply to Aaron seems to have taken an unexpected tangent! Perhaps I should edit to remove the bit about analogue cables and mains cables to read
"seeing as you can now run ethernet through the mains sockets in a house will running a digiatal audio cable next to the mains cause any issues ? - undoubtedly I am wrong!"
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type
Aaron's post frankly gobsmacked me, and in addition to replying here, I asked our local AES Committee the question "The console uses AES50 on Cat5e cables; is there an issue with running those cables next to twisted pair AC cables for a couple hundred feet?" as well as providing a link to this thread and a little background info.
There are some pretty heavy theoretical hitters on our Committee, and Rick Chinn was the first to reply. His response in its entirety:
"the cat5 business is pretty well defined at the hardware level, so it shouldn't be influenced by stray fields from AC cabling. you should be careful, however, to not wrap the cat5 around something ferrous, or subject it to sharp bends.
"Microphone cables, can be affected, but I think there is a greater risk from current induced into the shield conductor that flows into a piece that has a pin 1 problem.
"At the WAMU theater, I assisted Bill Whitlock in solving a hum problem they had. The AC cables (three-phase, Y) were tossed into a trough, and the mike snake went into a separate trough. There was a significant amount of ground current flowing in the neutral of the power system.
"My recall is that this turned into a loop area problem, and we solved it by putting the mike snake in with the AC.
"The same loop area problem makes a good case for running your console's AC line alongside the mike snake. the caveat about mike cables and AC cables comes from following the lighting company's feeder lines, which likely have spikey nasty stuff from thyristor dimmers all over it. That stuff is not good for your audio. as usual someone simplified it to include ALL ac wiring, which just isn't so."
And there you have it. Knowing Rick and his background and experience, and barring new evidence to the contrary, I consider this issue closed and will continue doing what you saw in the earlier post.
And as a related aside, if you ever have an opportunity to hear Bill Whitlock speak about grounding, loop area, etc., you should take advantage of it.
Edit: A couple people wrote about what happens when 1) you kink a Cat 5 or other digital cable, and 2) wrap an AC cable with data cable:
1) "it can change the impedance characteristic and cause reflections which turn into data errors. Same for wrapping it around something ferrous (like a stage leg)"
2) "Wrapping the entire cable with all conductors should not affect data, audio or bandwidth since that would be common mode filtering. Like a common mode toroid.
"If there are other paths external to the cable, things may be different."
Each twisted pair of Cat 5 is balanced, too.
Aaron's post frankly gobsmacked me, and in addition to replying here, I asked our local AES Committee the question "The console uses AES50 on Cat5e cables; is there an issue with running those cables next to twisted pair AC cables for a couple hundred feet?" as well as providing a link to this thread and a little background info.
There are some pretty heavy theoretical hitters on our Committee, and Rick Chinn was the first to reply. His response in its entirety:
"the cat5 business is pretty well defined at the hardware level, so it shouldn't be influenced by stray fields from AC cabling. you should be careful, however, to not wrap the cat5 around something ferrous, or subject it to sharp bends.
"Microphone cables, can be affected, but I think there is a greater risk from current induced into the shield conductor that flows into a piece that has a pin 1 problem.
"At the WAMU theater, I assisted Bill Whitlock in solving a hum problem they had. The AC cables (three-phase, Y) were tossed into a trough, and the mike snake went into a separate trough. There was a significant amount of ground current flowing in the neutral of the power system.
"My recall is that this turned into a loop area problem, and we solved it by putting the mike snake in with the AC.
"The same loop area problem makes a good case for running your console's AC line alongside the mike snake. the caveat about mike cables and AC cables comes from following the lighting company's feeder lines, which likely have spikey nasty stuff from thyristor dimmers all over it. That stuff is not good for your audio. as usual someone simplified it to include ALL ac wiring, which just isn't so."
And there you have it. Knowing Rick and his background and experience, and barring new evidence to the contrary, I consider this issue closed and will continue doing what you saw in the earlier post.
And as a related aside, if you ever have an opportunity to hear Bill Whitlock speak about grounding, loop area, etc., you should take advantage of it.
Edit: A couple people wrote about what happens when 1) you kink a Cat 5 or other digital cable, and 2) wrap an AC cable with data cable:
1) "it can change the impedance characteristic and cause reflections which turn into data errors. Same for wrapping it around something ferrous (like a stage leg)"
2) "Wrapping the entire cable with all conductors should not affect data, audio or bandwidth since that would be common mode filtering. Like a common mode toroid.
"If there are other paths external to the cable, things may be different."
Each twisted pair of Cat 5 is balanced, too.
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Re: Warranty
The official reply I received to that question was 10-14 days unless spare parts are required which may then take longer. In the two occasions I have returned a unit to Kidderminster it has been returned within 14 days.
The official reply I received to that question was 10-14 days unless spare parts are required which may then take longer. In the two occasions I have returned a unit to Kidderminster it has been returned within 14 days.