X32 Discussion

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

UPS's that kick in in less than 20 ms are important. Shielded cable helps make long runs (200'+) work more reliably. Shielded cable does not cause hum problems due to the all digital nature of the signal. You can run the mixer on a seperate power source with a digital snake with no hum /buzz (like you'd see on an analog snake).

Hi Declan,

Thanks for the info. Of course it makes sense that if a problem occurs when some condition lasts longer than 20 ms, then a UPS that kicks in in less than 20 ms will solve it. DUH!

And my question about shielded cable causing hum has less to do with the digital nature of the signal and more to do with connecting two devices on separate AC feeds; is there some condition within the devices that can occur from being grounded somewhere other than locally, e.g., there is a significant voltage potential difference between grounds that is fine when not connected, but then when connected there is a current flowing on the shield? With analog there can be, but I don't know how well digital devices protect themselves from such things, as they maybe presume NO shield connection.

Pure speculation and overthinking.....

Thanks again for the info.

Dan

 

[Kristian Wrang]

Re: X32 patching

I have a "what if" question for an upcoming gig I have.

I have an X32, and 2 S16 snakes. My band currently uses an o1V96 as an in-ear mixer. I dont want to bring a big ass wired split snake to get patched into the yamaha. The band is only 16 channels (14 if I drop the stereo guitars). Could I assign the 14 outputs on the s16 to be channel direct outs and patch from the S16 outputs right into the 01V? This would be a back saver (gig is upstairs).

If I wanted to use all 16 outputs on the s16, could I still use 15,16 on the console (main out - hardwired on XLR), would I have to bring L + R , out on AUX outputs (hardwired to the stage via TRS adapter to XLR).

cheers
SP

The way I understand it is if you have the ADAT -card in your 01V96 -mixer you could also pull two ADAT cables from one S16 to the Yamaha and use the splitter mode that can be toggled on from the back of the S16.

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

CAT+power-cable test results

Hello

I set X32 as described earlier.

Inputs are two S16 with all channel gains at minimum and nothing connected.
All channel routed to LR - pan set in middle - all dynamics and EQ set OFF
All input faders and master set to maximum / +10 - all AUX- & EFF-RET-channels MUTED

CAT5-cable shielded, but shield NOT connected at either end due to lack of connectors with shield. I plan to connect it in PSU-end someday. Cable lenght 20 meters / 65 feet

Output from 15 & 16 connected into Carver PM300 ( dual 150W @ 4ohm ) - fully cranked up - ReVox Magic Qubes - slight hiss noticeable - master fader kills it when pulled down.

iPhone 4 with RTA-lite as "precision" measurement instrument mounted about 25mm/1inch in front of coaxial speaker centre as in picture #3 :lol:

With nothing connected to amp - 40dB @ 800Hz and 35dB @ 12,5KHz
With master fader DOWN - 40dB @ 800Hz and 50dB @ 12,5KHz
With Master fader UP - 50dB @ 800Hz and 68dB @ 12,5KHz

Having a 1KW load ( a heater ) connected via thyristor dimmer into wrapped power cable, while everything is full coiled on cable drum has NO EFFECT what so ever on measurement - neither there is nothing to be heard besides the basic hiss. Trying to set the dimmer at different levels does NOT make ANY difference. Dimmer was on one end of cable and load was at the other.

Next we set up the REALLY DANGEROUS system. We took the dimmer away and introduced a "SWITCH" at load end of cable. Switch consists of rough file touched with sharpish object as seen in picture #1 - DO NOT TRY THIS UNLESS YOU DO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING !!! There is 240V live with 16A fuse present in ALL VISIBLE PARTS !!!

Load was again the 1000W heater - as it is old and I do not really start whining, if it dies in behalf of science....:roll:

My friend was behind the door risking his life with my contraption and produced nice sparks, as can be seen in picture #2

I was safely next door listening and observing iPhone RTA - there was first about 2dB hopping, but when I closed the door, there was NOTHING different!

By now we had spent about two hours with preparing etc and we started to have an urge of C[SUB]n[/SUB]H[SUB]2n+1[/SUB]OH. and decided to study it later, if necessary. We both feel, that coiled on metal reel is worse, than laying free on floor ( we do NOT KNOW for sure ) but if someone can provide good reason to repeat test with more or less straight cable, I just might do it :roll:


Finally there is picture #4 showing the test setup:
- power feed into everything low right corner
- X32 and 2xS16 + cable drum ( I just had it laying around and decided to use it ( beefed up with old speaker grill to hold cable ends whilst in transit )
- dimmer can be seen on top of blue Anvil Case under X32
- extension cable is used to have the load next door.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

This is awesome, Timo, especially the spark test! Only if you could have involved robots or zombies would have it been better.

One thing, though: my problem occured when driving speakers from the outputs of the S16, and you didn't check that.

I don't recall if Michael Roper or Darren Scaresbrook said that their problems were on the input side or the output side, and a quick look at their posts doesn't clarify.

Has anyone reported a problem besides the three of us?

Thanks for doing this, and I'm happy you found nothing on the input side.

Hello

I set X32 as described earlier.

Inputs are two S16 with all channel gains at minimum and nothing connected.
All channel routed to LR - pan set in middle - all dynamics and EQ set OFF
All input faders and master set to maximum / +10 - all AUX- & EFF-RET-channels MUTED

CAT5-cable shielded, but shield NOT connected at either end due to lack of connectors with shield. I plan to connect it in PSU-end someday. Cable lenght 20 meters / 65 feet

Output from 15 & 16 connected into Carver PM300 ( dual 150W @ 4ohm ) - fully cranked up - ReVox Magic Qubes - slight hiss noticeable - master fader kills it when pulled down.

iPhone 4 with RTA-lite as "precision" measurement instrument mounted about 25mm/1inch in front of coaxial speaker centre as in picture #3 :lol:

With nothing connected to amp - 40dB @ 800Hz and 35dB @ 12,5KHz
With master fader DOWN - 40dB @ 800Hz and 50dB @ 12,5KHz
With Master fader UP - 50dB @ 800Hz and 68dB @ 12,5KHz

Having a 1KW load ( a heater ) connected via thyristor dimmer into wrapped power cable, while everything is full coiled on cable drum has NO EFFECT what so ever on measurement - neither there is nothing to be heard besides the basic hiss. Trying to set the dimmer at different levels does NOT make ANY difference. Dimmer was on one end of cable and load was at the other.

Next we set up the REALLY DANGEROUS system. We took the dimmer away and introduced a "SWITCH" at load end of cable. Switch consists of rough file touched with sharpish object as seen in picture #1 - DO NOT TRY THIS UNLESS YOU DO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING !!! There is 240V live with 16A fuse present in ALL VISIBLE PARTS !!!

Load was again the 1000W heater - as it is old and I do not really start whining, if it dies in behalf of science....:roll:

My friend was behind the door risking his life with my contraption and produced nice sparks, as can be seen in picture #2

I was safely next door listening and observing iPhone RTA - there was first about 2dB hopping, but when I closed the door, there was NOTHING different!

By now we had spent about two hours with preparing etc and we started to have an urge of C[SUB]n[/SUB]H[SUB]2n+1[/SUB]OH. and decided to study it later, if necessary. We both feel, that coiled on metal reel is worse, than laying free on floor ( we do NOT KNOW for sure ) but if someone can provide good reason to repeat test with more or less straight cable, I just might do it :roll:


Finally there is picture #4 showing the test setup:
- power feed into everything low right corner
- X32 and 2xS16 + cable drum ( I just had it laying around and decided to use it ( beefed up with old speaker grill to hold cable ends whilst in transit )
- dimmer can be seen on top of blue Anvil Case under X32
- extension cable is used to have the load next door.



View attachment 6345View attachment 6346View attachment 6347View attachment 6344

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

This is awesome, Timo, especially the spark test! Only if you could have involved robots or zombies would have it been better.

One thing, though: my problem occured when driving speakers from the outputs of the S16, and you didn't check that.

I don't recall if Michael Roper or Darren Scaresbrook said that their problems were on the input side or the output side, and a quick look at their posts doesn't clarify.

Has anyone reported a problem besides the three of us?

Thanks for doing this, and I'm happy you found nothing on the input side.

Dan, there are some guys over at the Behringer forum also having issues. There are 3 or 4 threads over there about it.
Two of them have changed cat5 cables and seem good so far, and another has replaced the s16's. As this problem is so intermittant, I would be hesitant though to call them fixed until some more time has passed.
I don't think it can be called an input or output problem as such, as the aes50 signal is carrying audio both ways and when it loses sync the whole aes50 signal will drop out.
FYI this is my post from one of the threads.

"Hi Walt,

My x32 and 2 x s16's have just been shipped off for the Australian service agent to look at.
I am having the same problem as you.
Interestingly I am not sure it is the cat5 cable, as I have tried several with the same results. One of the cables is Ramcat shielded pro cable, which works fine on an A&HiLive system we also run. It also works with no problems on a Midas pro2 and dl251 running aes50. The Ramcat cable is over $10 meter, so it is definitely not a cheap and nasty cat5 cable!
The problem is also very intermittant, it can run fine for days then start to play up.
I'm not sure how the service dept. will go with this one due to the intermittant nature of it!
I wonder if many others are experiencing similar issues?
Darren"

I've been without it for a month now and really can't afford to be down a console any longer!
Unfortunately I have put $1k into cases for the desk and racks but I think I will have to cut my losses and get a refund on the x32 and s16's.
I think I can see an A&H GLD in my future!
Darren

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Dan, there are some guys over at the Behringer forum also having issues. There are 3 or 4 threads over there about it.
Two of them have changed cat5 cables and seem good so far, and another has replaced the s16's.

Hi Darren,

Is this at Behringer.com? Could you please provide links? I'm not finding any thread titles like this there, but am known as a terrible searcher.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Paul Goldsmith]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Dan, there are some guys over at the Behringer forum also having issues. There are 3 or 4 threads over there about it.
Two of them have changed cat5 cables and seem good so far, and another has replaced the s16's. As this problem is so intermittant, I would be hesitant though to call them fixed until some more time has passed.
I don't think it can be called an input or output problem as such, as the aes50 signal is carrying audio both ways and when it loses sync the whole aes50 signal will drop out.
FYI this is my post from one of the threads.

"Hi Walt,

My x32 and 2 x s16's have just been shipped off for the Australian service agent to look at.
I am having the same problem as you.
Interestingly I am not sure it is the cat5 cable, as I have tried several with the same results. One of the cables is Ramcat shielded pro cable, which works fine on an A&HiLive system we also run. It also works with no problems on a Midas pro2 and dl251 running aes50. The Ramcat cable is over $10 meter, so it is definitely not a cheap and nasty cat5 cable!
The problem is also very intermittant, it can run fine for days then start to play up.
I'm not sure how the service dept. will go with this one due to the intermittant nature of it!
I wonder if many others are experiencing similar issues?
Darren"

I've been without it for a month now and really can't afford to be down a console any longer!
Unfortunately I have put $1k into cases for the desk and racks but I think I will have to cut my losses and get a refund on the x32 and s16's.
I think I can see an A&H GLD in my future!
Darren

Hi Darren, Andy our service technician has had your X32 running daily by his desk since it arrived. It hasn't faulted in anyway and he is reasonably sure it would be sub standard CAT5 cabling causing the issue. He will call you tomorrow to discuss. To date there are approximately 400 X32 consoles in the AU market and we have only seen a few minor issues (all of which were easily solved) but none that have related to this one. Rest assured we take all problems very seriously and we will get to the bottom of this issue. I'll personally keep an eye on this.

Paul Goldsmith
Managing Director - Galactic Music.

 

[Brett Tippet]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Dan, there are some guys over at the Behringer forum also having issues. There are 3 or 4 threads over there about it.
Two of them have changed cat5 cables and seem good so far, and another has replaced the s16's. As this problem is so intermittant, I would be hesitant though to call them fixed until some more time has passed.
I don't think it can be called an input or output problem as such, as the aes50 signal is carrying audio both ways and when it loses sync the whole aes50 signal will drop out.
FYI this is my post from one of the threads.

"Hi Walt,

My x32 and 2 x s16's have just been shipped off for the Australian service agent to look at.
I am having the same problem as you.
Interestingly I am not sure it is the cat5 cable, as I have tried several with the same results. One of the cables is Ramcat shielded pro cable, which works fine on an A&HiLive system we also run. It also works with no problems on a Midas pro2 and dl251 running aes50. The Ramcat cable is over $10 meter, so it is definitely not a cheap and nasty cat5 cable!
The problem is also very intermittant, it can run fine for days then start to play up.
I'm not sure how the service dept. will go with this one due to the intermittant nature of it!
I wonder if many others are experiencing similar issues?
Darren"

I've been without it for a month now and really can't afford to be down a console any longer!
Unfortunately I have put $1k into cases for the desk and racks but I think I will have to cut my losses and get a refund on the x32 and s16's.
I think I can see an A&H GLD in my future!
Darren

I'm in australia, x32 with 2xs16's over an 80m Cat6 Cable on a reel. Heaps of gigs with it in the last 4 months. Not one glitch or problem. It's not an inherent problem.

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Hi Darren,

Is this at Behringer.com? Could you please provide links? I'm not finding any thread titles like this there, but am known as a terrible searcher.

Thanks,
Dan

The following threads are all related to connectivity issues between the x32 and s16's.
The issue that Walt had in the last linked thread is identical to my problem. I have posted and pm'd him to check if the issue is still resolved, but have not heard back.
Some units struggle to sync at all and others sync but with drop outs.

Behringer X32 and S16 - Channel Problem? and Solved! Faulty CAT5 cable

X32 Noise Pops & L/R Meters Pegging

S16 cable length for sync

Quality of X32/S16 EtherCons

Ethernet cable to S16

I wish it was as simple as a cable issue but my cable works fine with 2 other systems, A&H(ethernet/ethersound) and Midas(aes50).
This is the cable I'm using.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...sIG4BA&usg=AFQjCNGgcMpRuSqUnPF0YTOKVmo02mgqHA
Darren

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Thanks for posting these, I guess, but I'm not seeing that they are in any way similar to the problem that I had, or the problem that I think Michael was describing, or even the problem that I think you were describing.

Each of the posters in the links you provide did have a problem of some sort, but the first even says in the title it was a faulty cable, the next one was within the console with no S16 involved, the third one had S16's that never sync'd but was solved by replacing the units (presumably the S16's but he's not specific), the fourth one is a question about the connectors themselves, and the last one was solved by replacing the cable.

Maybe I'm reading more into your posts than you're saying, but I think you are being very unfair when you say that because several people are reporting issues that have been solved that there is then a reason why you should return your console and go to some other technology that you name. I'm glad your cable works fine with other systems, but that may not be an indicator that it will work with this system.

I have no idea if this is at all relevant, but when I first got my S16's and first connected them to the console, while I could set phantom and adjust trim and do a variety of control things, and the sync lights were all good, nothing I did could get the console to show signal. Finally I changed to another cable, and all was well. It turned out the first cable had only 3 connected pairs! The fourth pair apparently was the one that carried the signal to the console.

Since it's a given that all technology will have problems, it's not surprising that a wide variety of people are reporting problems. It's gratifying that most of them, including those you reference, are reporting some sort of solution, whether replacing components like cable or connectors, or replacing the major parts of the system -console/snake head- that are faulty.

Since all of this gear will turn into junk in too-few years, the two questions are: 1) how long do we get to use it until it's junk? and 2) how much do we have invested and how much will it cost to replace that investment when it ultimately turns into junk?

The affordability and general reliability (so far/ with a few exceptions/ once it's working it seems to stay working/ etc.) of the X32 family of stuff currently available to us and/or to Christian seems promising.

YMMV, and you are of course free to drop it and pursue something else. I personally have an almost 40 year very sporadic history with A&H and will prefer to stick with Behringer. Other people may feel differently.

Good luck to you and to us all with this issue and the inevitable others that will appear. I hope when your console comes back to you and you try another cable, that all is well and remains well.

And speaking of another cable, I think it is not a good plan to have only one long Ethernet cable at a gig. It seems like it will be advisable to have a backup, whether it's the built-in redundancy of the Gepco 4 wire Tactical cable (or similar), or multiple individual runs in your snake, or a coil of cheap stuff in your workbox that can be strung out in an emergency, or two of those three. Having an alternative seems imperative when the chips are down.

However, a show failure due to these intermittent snake connection issues is terrifying enough to motivate further research, and it's good to see and hear about that continuing research done by a variety of people.

Enough late night rambling.

The following threads are all related to connectivity issues between the x32 and s16's.
The issue that Walt had in the last linked thread is identical to my problem. I have posted and pm'd him to check if the issue is still resolved, but have not heard back.
Some units struggle to sync at all and others sync but with drop outs.

Behringer X32 and S16 - Channel Problem? and Solved! Faulty CAT5 cable

X32 Noise Pops & L/R Meters Pegging

S16 cable length for sync

Quality of X32/S16 EtherCons

Ethernet cable to S16

I wish it was as simple as a cable issue but my cable works fine with 2 other systems, A&H(ethernet/ethersound) and Midas(aes50).
Darren

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Thanks for posting these, I guess, but I'm not seeing that they are in any way similar to the problem that I had, or the problem that I think Michael was describing, or even the problem that I think you were describing.

Each of the posters in the links you provide did have a problem of some sort, but the first even says in the title it was a faulty cable, the next one was within the console with no S16 involved, the third one had S16's that never sync'd but was solved by replacing the units (presumably the S16's but he's not specific), the fourth one is a question about the connectors themselves, and the last one was solved by replacing the cable.

Maybe I'm reading more into your posts than you're saying, but I think you are being very unfair when you say that because several people are reporting issues that have been solved that there is then a reason why you should return your console and go to some other technology that you name. I'm glad your cable works fine with other systems, but that may not be an indicator that it will work with this system.

I have no idea if this is at all relevant, but when I first got my S16's and first connected them to the console, while I could set phantom and adjust trim and do a variety of control things, and the sync lights were all good, nothing I did could get the console to show signal. Finally I changed to another cable, and all was well. It turned out the first cable had only 3 connected pairs! The fourth pair apparently was the one that carried the signal to the console.

Since it's a given that all technology will have problems, it's not surprising that a wide variety of people are reporting problems. It's gratifying that most of them, including those you reference, are reporting some sort of solution, whether replacing components like cable or connectors, or replacing the major parts of the system -console/snake head- that are faulty.

Since all of this gear will turn into junk in too-few years, the two questions are: 1) how long do we get to use it until it's junk? and 2) how much do we have invested and how much will it cost to replace that investment when it ultimately turns into junk?

The affordability and general reliability (so far/ with a few exceptions/ once it's working it seems to stay working/ etc.) of the X32 family of stuff currently available to us and/or to Christian seems promising.

YMMV, and you are of course free to drop it and pursue something else. I personally have an almost 40 year very sporadic history with A&H and will prefer to stick with Behringer. Other people may feel differently.

Good luck to you and to us all with this issue and the inevitable others that will appear. I hope when your console comes back to you and you try another cable, that all is well and remains well.

And speaking of another cable, I think it is not a good plan to have only one long Ethernet cable at a gig. It seems like it will be advisable to have a backup, whether it's the built-in redundancy of the Gepco 4 wire Tactical cable (or similar), or multiple individual runs in your snake, or a coil of cheap stuff in your workbox that can be strung out in an emergency, or two of those three. Having an alternative seems imperative when the chips are down.

However, a show failure due to these intermittent snake connection issues is terrifying enough to motivate further research, and it's good to see and hear about that continuing research done by a variety of people.

Enough late night rambling.

Hi Dan,

I understand the diversity of the faults people are having. I posted these to show that there seem to be some general connectivity issues.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the product in any way, on the contrary, I think it is a great product when it works for me. My strongly preferred option is to have this system back and have it reliable. I just can't afford to send it out on a job without a conclusive answer to why this is happening. I do have 100% faith in the service centre. I come from an electronic service background and understand the problems involved in finding such an intermittant fault.

I tried two separate Klotz rc5 Ramcat cables terminated with neutrik ethercons as well as 2 other "generic" cables and the issue persisted. The ramcat was also used for two shows in between the two failed shows and ran without a hiccup.

AES50 has a well defined set of standards. If the manufacturers have built the equipment to comply to these standards, and I have no reason to think Behringer have done otherwise, I can not understand why a cable will work on the Midas but not the Behringer? I haven't tried it but the Midas dl251 stage box will even work with the x32.
AES50 is AES50 is AES50, or, at least it should be!

Darren

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

This is awesome, Timo, especially the spark test! Only if you could have involved robots or zombies would have it been better.

One thing, though: my problem occured when driving speakers from the outputs of the S16, and you didn't check that.



Hello


Zombies included :twisted: just be sure to pay your rental bills in due time or else :roll:

As you can see in picture taken today, I added music via two DI-boxes into channels 15 & 16 , took output to poweramp from S16 leaving everything else as is. Load was 1KW heater - I listened music ( Eberhard Weber etc "soft" stuff so cracks etc would be more easily heard )

There was once a crack and I thought "Now I have it!" but it turned out to be in youtube and I could play it back - so again no system noise.

I hope to get back there tonite with my pal - so he can put his hands on that fileswitchcontraption again and let it spark...




p.s. perhaps I´ll build a robot to do the sparks - maybe I´ll name him "SPARKY"

 

[Peter van Gils]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Timo, can you try with a more inductive load (something with a transformer)...?

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Timo, can you try with a more inductive load (something with a transformer)...?

Hello

Yes I think I can arrange something with big toroidal x-former.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Monitor out noise

The pictures show instant measurements (you can see the average at the lower frequencies if you look closely, and I might just turn off the instant trace next time), so some of it is random and some of it is drift that I see when I let it run for a while. Shorting the inpus have no effect, it is all internal to the computer and is caused by my inability to turn off the internal source of the noise, I'm sure I could fix the computer for measuring purposes if I took the time and didn't mind about rendering it temporarily useless for anything but routing signals from the asio to the spectrum analyzer.

I took some new measurements, adding 70 dB of gain. With the analogue pot turned down, I could still hear nothing when monitoring the amplified signal, but there is a 5512Hz tone and a 11025 Hz tone that I could not hear while monitoring the gained signal. With the analogue monitor pot turned all the way up and the mains and a lot of other stuff turned up, changing scenes etc (no inputs) I could hear the tones as they stood out against the now very audible noise floor.



And finally, at 80dB of gain, the sound:

http://www.x32user.net/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=34

I guess it proves that there is a noise there, and it would certainly be annoying if you connected your 160 dB line array rig to the monitor outs and stuck your head right in there (never mind you would go deaf once the music started playing), but for my purposes, my desk is silent enough by a huge margin. ~~:smile:

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Deleted. I clarified my point below.

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Re: CAT+power-cable test results

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MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

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[Aaron Hammett]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Hi Declan,

Thanks for the info. Of course it makes sense that if a problem occurs when some condition lasts longer than 20 ms, then a UPS that kicks in in less than 20 ms will solve it. DUH!

And my question about shielded cable causing hum has less to do with the digital nature of the signal and more to do with connecting two devices on separate AC feeds; is there some condition within the devices that can occur from being grounded somewhere other than locally, e.g., there is a significant voltage potential difference between grounds that is fine when not connected, but then when connected there is a current flowing on the shield? With analog there can be, but I don't know how well digital devices protect themselves from such things, as they maybe presume NO shield connection.

Pure speculation and overthinking.....

Thanks again for the info.

Dan

It depends what you are trying to mitigate.

RFI - Ground both ends or you have an antenna
Analog - Ground one end or suffer potential ground loop
EMI or ESD - Use FTP (overall shielded) not STP (each pair shielded) CAT5/6 cable and strip through the outer jacket only. Using a grounding strap, bond the shield to the source chassis ground as close to the chassis penetration point as possible.

The question of the efficacy of the transceiver systems' CMRR is sticking point for me. I'll be more direct: Twisted Pair cables are highly documented. The unknown quantity is the transceiver circuitry. I think we're going to find that the transceivers are not as robust as necessary. Anyone game?

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Monitor out noise

I took some new measurements, adding 70 dB of gain. With the analogue pot turned down, I could still hear nothing when monitoring the amplified signal, but there is a 5512Hz tone and a 11025 Hz tone that I could not hear while monitoring the gained signal. With the analogue monitor pot turned all the way up and the mains and a lot of other stuff turned up, changing scenes etc (no inputs) I could hear the tones as they stood out against the now very audible noise floor.
View attachment 6360
View attachment 6361

And finally, at 80dB of gain, the sound:

http://www.x32user.net/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=34

I guess it proves that there is a noise there, and it would certainly be annoying if you connected your 160 dB line array rig to the monitor outs and stuck your head right in there (never mind you would go deaf once the music started playing), but for my purposes, my desk is silent enough by a huge margin. ~~:smile:

Thanks for this, Per.

To recap why I think this noise is unacceptable (and this may be elementary, but we- those who think the sound is obnoxious and those who hear no problem- seem to be having a problem communicating, so I will spell it out in excruciating detail):

When using the mixer as a monitor console, the monitor engineer uses a wedge on its own amplification chain (but no EQ) to hear what is going on in the mixes that the artists are hearing. To do so, he/she selects among either the actual post EQ mixes being sent onstage or individual channels on the console, all via the solo buttons. There is also a master volume control for the post-solo signal so the engineer can adjust the listen wedge volume to taste. However, when the signal level through the post-solo listen wedge signal chain is at unity, the engineer is hearing the selected mix at exactly the same volume level and tonality as the artist onstage listening to their own wedge.

The monitor out analog pot is an attenuator only, meaning that unity gain is at maximum clockwise rotation, so that is the default listening position for a monitor engineer. What the output is doing when the pot is below maximum is irrelevant to the monitor engineer.

My assertion that the sound is obnoxious comes from running a cable from that output directly to the input of a powered speaker which I consider representative of what would happen when setting up a monitor system as described above, in this case a Meyer UPJ-1P. The whine is clearly audible when no other sound is present, and would drive a monitor engineer nuts if subjected to it for lengthy periods, like a quiet concert. Probably it would be no problem for a concert whose volume envelope looked like that of the Ricky Martin song "La Vida Loca" or something similar.

As said before in this thread, by setting up the console to bypass the analog pot/monitor out and using any of the other 16 outputs as the monitor out, and the master fader as the volume control for that output, this issue disappears completely for my company's purposes.

With that out of the way, is your adding of 80 db gain the same as me plugging into a powered speaker in a quiet space? It wouldn't surprise me if the tone was 80 db below maximum, as our hearing certainly has that kind of dynamic range. And as said before, a noisy space masks the intrusive tone.

The point is that the tone is there and audible on the monitor outputs, and not there and not audible on the other 16 analog outputs.

Also, are you still running the console at 44.1? Could you please try at 48.0 and see how the numbers change? Pointing out again that my company runs the consoles at 48.0 kHz sampling rate.

Your plots look much better than the earlier ones in the HF; is this a different measuring system? Why is it using a linear scale rather than log?

Is that link to the sound file your own website? That was a good way to post such files here, as this otherwise terrific software only allows for pictures and not movies or similar files.

Thanks for continuing to pursue this, and for putting up with my going on and on.

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

Noise problems in general

Hello

Tonight I was at my workshop to continue with research of noise issues with twisted triple of power-cat-dmx-cable.

My friend with his helping hand at dangerous "switch" could not make it so there is nothing new to report.

BUT

While at it I remembered something from about 1978 or so.... We had slight BZZZZ coming of one speaker of recording studio - customers alarmingly asking "is it on the tape" - after some two years culprit was revealed - building next door had a machine "glueing" plastic parts together with high-frequency power - bad shielding in their setup - radiation coming into our system - problem solved - took at least two years.

Tonight my friend called me - he has worked with x-ray-units - he recalled one hospital having irregular problems with x-rays - problem always the same by nature, but timing irregular - finally one late evening when hospital was quiet, a serviceman was there and heard an elevator move behind wall - finally discovering, that elevator caused the problem via electric system of the building.


With these two examples I am trying to point out, that for some problems, that we might think are due to our new X32-S16 system, there might be some completely other explanation. Wireless microphones - house cooling systems - problems with buildings electricity - etc etc


It is obvious, that when replacing an old system - that worked fine without problems - with a new one, there might be new until now unknown problems coming up. After all - replacing the center of large audio system is not a piece of cake - it could be with good luck, but some serious system-grounding etc issues may arise.

So basically all the new problems MAY OR MAY NOT be equipment related.

My X32-S16 has worked wonderfully all gigs so far - and having done the tests with utmost unlikely conditions - I am looking forward with faith !



In the seventies I had both dB and Studiosound magazines coming in for a while. One of them had an article about recording studio grounding problems with audible hum. There was an advise - I repeat as good as I remember - "Start at the door - go through all connections of electric wires, power and audio - cut each ground-wire and listen if the hum gets quieter - if not, connect it back - if yes, leave it open - at he end you either get rid of the hum or get electrocuted"

This goes well to show an example of basically simple task growing out of proposal....


Aaron Hammett pointed out some very interesting "catch 22":s in post #5498 - take all those in consideration, so it just might work out right...



I still plan to do some more testing with "Sparky" and toroidial loads..... just for the heck of it and to help others..