X32 Discussion

[Kevin Hunter]

X32 Scene Manager 0.1.8 Released

X32 User Net • View topic - X32 Scene Manager 0.1.8 Released

Its finally ready for the next release (see the above link)



Hope you enjoy.

Kev​

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: Noise problems in general

Tonight my friend called me - he has worked with x-ray-units - he recalled one hospital having irregular problems with x-rays - problem always the same by nature, but timing irregular - finally one late evening when hospital was quiet, a serviceman was there and heard an elevator move behind wall - finally discovering, that elevator caused the problem via electric system of the building.

I had a similar experience. The company I worked for some years ago installed a computer system at a customer place.

Every now and then the system crashed for no apparent reason. The complete system was eventually replaced and it still kept crashing. The customer was quite upset.

Some vistits/months later I finally realized what the problem was. The electrical trams (spårvagnar) running throughout the city induced electrical interfeerence throughout the power network but they were the only one affected by this problem... A single ups didn't work since this was a distributed system throughout the company facilities and the interfeerence found its way into the system somehow.

The power company was informed and they fixed it somehow and in the end the customer was happy ever after.

Oh, I've also had a tt24 dislike a fridge getting power from the same phase in the building...

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Monitor out noise

Thanks for this, Per.

To recap why I think this noise is unacceptable (and this may be elementary, but we- those who think the sound is obnoxious and those who hear no problem- seem to be having a problem communicating, so I will spell it out in excruciating detail):

When using the mixer as a monitor console, the monitor engineer uses a wedge on its own amplification chain (but no EQ) to hear what is going on in the mixes that the artists are hearing. To do so, he/she selects among either the actual post EQ mixes being sent onstage or individual channels on the console, all via the solo buttons. There is also a master volume control for the post-solo signal so the engineer can adjust the listen wedge volume to taste. However, when the signal level through the post-solo listen wedge signal chain is at unity, the engineer is hearing the selected mix at exactly the same volume level and tonality as the artist onstage listening to their own wedge.

Totally get that, and given proper gain and send levels, I see no reason why a noise a few dB above noise floor would represent a problem if the total dynamic range is still adequate, and in my opinion 110 dB is adequate for most purposes.

The monitor out analog pot is an attenuator only, meaning that unity gain is at maximum clockwise rotation, so that is the default listening position for a monitor engineer. What the output is doing when the pot is below maximum is irrelevant to the monitor engineer.

Just turning it down all the way to get as close as possible to measuring the output stage only, might not be particularly relevant to this discussion. However, the default position for a monitor engineer must surely be whatever setting that gives the correct nominal level at his monitor when the signal at the desk is at nominal level. Defaulting to max output levels and max gain on monitor amplification and then turning down the send levels will surely lift the noise floor and sometimes introduce a dangerously generous peakroom. I'm not a fan of working that way.

My assertion that the sound is obnoxious comes from running a cable from that output directly to the input of a powered speaker which I consider representative of what would happen when setting up a monitor system as described above, in this case a Meyer UPJ-1P. The whine is clearly audible when no other sound is present, and would drive a monitor engineer nuts if subjected to it for lengthy periods, like a quiet concert. Probably it would be no problem for a concert whose volume envelope looked like that of the Ricky Martin song "La Vida Loca" or something similar.

Presumably that Meyer was turned all the way up. I don't know how much it compresses at max input level, but will assume that it's getting to at least 115 dB/1m at nominal input, so I can understand that a -80 dB whine will be pretty annoying and tiresome if one chooses to set it up like that, but again, why use maximum gain in a quiet setting?

As said before in this thread, by setting up the console to bypass the analog pot/monitor out and using any of the other 16 outputs as the monitor out, and the master fader as the volume control for that output, this issue disappears completely for my company's purposes.

Certainly, and one would assume that the monitor out problem is fixable with some rerouting/shielding/termination. I have done enough rewiring inside mixers to realize that even reputable stuff doesn't always employ optimal solutions everywhere.

With that out of the way, is your adding of 80 db gain the same as me plugging into a powered speaker in a quiet space? It wouldn't surprise me if the tone was 80 db below maximum, as our hearing certainly has that kind of dynamic range. And as said before, a noisy space masks the intrusive tone.

Well, in my case the peak value of the noise seems to be at around -10dB which translates into -110dBfs, so gaining for absolute peaklevel of 140-145 dB at output clipping will indeed produce a very annoying and tring whine even from my presumably very quiet console.

The point is that the tone is there and audible on the monitor outputs, and not there and not audible on the other 16 analog outputs.

Yes, and this is why I'm sure it must be fixable. I don't presume to know how the monitor out is laid out, but am guessing the signal travels a bit in the analogue domain, but have no idea if the attentuation is in the signal path or is DCA on the output drive (if there even is an output drive after the DA), but the noise issue seems to suggest that it must be going analogue to the pot before being amplified at the output drive. This is pure speculation on my part, and is probably biased by my relative ignorance of modern cirquitry.

Also, are you still running the console at 44.1? Could you please try at 48.0 and see how the numbers change? Pointing out again that my company runs the consoles at 48.0 kHz sampling rate.

Yeah, I just remebered to do it before tear-down and couldn't remember how to change the sampling rate on my recorder, so only did 44.1 KHz as evidenced by the tones at 5512 and 11025 Hz. Wanted to change to 48KHz on the recorder to avoid any aliasing issues that might be present even when going via analogue conversion and filtering. When I couldn't find the sample rate set up in the menu, I just shut down and never thought to take the 48KHz measurement anyway. The tones are guaranteed to shift to 6000 and 12000 Hz as they are beyond any reasonable doubt 1/8 and 1/4 of the sampling frequency.
I'm tearing down a wall tomorrow and cleaning up before setting up the X32 and other equipment temporarily in a sort of semi-permanent way in the shop that will allow me to finally spend some quality time with it. So hopefully I might have the measurements tomorrow night.

Your plots look much better than the earlier ones in the HF; is this a different measuring system? Why is it using a linear scale rather than log?

Yeah, remeber the old measurements was mainly of the crap inside my small portable, while this is close to exclusively the output from the monitor outs (except that the leads were running across my UPS and probably picked up some 50 and 100 Hz) so it should look very different. The "measuring" is just a file analysis in Audacity, but it is logarithmic, the frequency scale obviously is, and dB is by its very nature. :razz:
Quite crappy measurement as the smoothing and lack of resolution fails to show what I think is the true level of the steady tones. This might be better and more correct (0dB on the scale is somewhere between -3dB and -6dB in the soundfile, slope is 0dB/oct):

Is that link to the sound file your own website? That was a good way to post such files here, as this otherwise terrific software only allows for pictures and not movies or similar files.

Yes, the X32user.net forum allows most types of files to be uploaded, there is a 2MB size limit. but that can easily be changed if a real need should arise.

Thanks for continuing to pursue this, and for putting up with my going on and on.

And thank you for putting up with me.~~:smile: Had written a more thorough answer, but then the thing locked up when trying to upload a picture, so had to write it all again ~:-(~:sad:

 

[Randy Martin]

Live Recording with X32

Here's a song that was recording live with the x32 using the USB 2 Track thats built in the X32

Hope ya like..

Long train runing by Livemusic Festus on SoundCloud - Hear the world

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

This afternoon I set up the almost the same gear that allowed me to get a glitch in the snake system a couple weeks ago. The only difference was a different FOH console, and the irrelevant difference of sending the PA send through a little Mackie mixer to headphones, so that if I could create the glitch again it wouldn't blow me out of the room through speakers.

I was able to get it to do it again, but only on one occasion (though multiple times within that occasion), and then I could NOT get it to do it again. I hoped to show a movie of what was going on the second time it did it, but I couldn't get it to do it, so no movie.

Here are some pictures showing the setup:



The two consoles were on a table facing the snake head; the left console is the monitor console and the S16 master with local sync, the right console is the FOH with AES50A sync.

A 25' Ethercon cable runs from A port on S16 to AES50B port on Monitor console (yes, I know the instructions say go to the A port on the console, but I've found that as long as the routing is set up appropriately the console port at this stage doesn't matter).

A second 25' Ethercon cable runs from Mon console AES50A back to near the snake head, where an Ethercon coupler connects it to the FOH Ethercon cable, which is 200' long. I'm doing it this way because both Monitor and FOH consoles are running off the same UPS, and so have cables going to the snake head rack. The connection Mon-FOH can occur there. All cable systems have 2 Ethercon cables and an AC cable; FOH has an additional analog 4 pair that you'll see.




The Mackie is sitting on top of the rack out of the picture, and the FOH console outputs are from the lower S16. Console output 16 is the PA right signal, and that's what's connected.

The FOH Ethercon is plugged into AES50A, and again that is where that console is getting its sync.

I tried to replicate the table that I was pulling the cable under at the gig by narrowing the gap under these table legs using the console case lid and some foam stuff, making the gap a couple of inches between the case lid and the horizontal table leg thing.



This picture (above) shows my hand still lightly pulling after the sounds were heard. Then I let go and took some closer pictures of the mess.




It kind of looks like the Ethernet cable is being squeezed by the two yellow AC cables (actually one crossing over itself) and the table legs. I was pulling from the left.

Visibly, the glitching caused the screens of both consoles to flicker, and that may have occurred both before the glitching and during, and the noise was very loud through the headphones sitting on the table, though thankfully not loud to my ears. I could not hear it with any definition, it just sounded like white noise since there was no LF components reaching my ears from the headphones. I *think* the sync lights went out on the consoles but didn't turn red, but I won't swear to that. It seemed like I could see more than just screen flickering. The S16 was doing something, too, but it may just have been losing the green sync lights, too.

I was able to stop and start the glitching by stopping and starting pulling on the cable. The cable was sliding through the gap below the table, and once I had pulled all the slack, I had to start over and was never able to get it to do it again.

I did stomp on it with my shoe, to no effect, and took a chunk of 2x4 wood and beat on various parts of the Ethernet cable, both directly onto the cement floor with only the cable in between, and with the yellow AC between the cable and the 2x4, and twisted and squeezed the Ethercon cable with my hands and fingers like you'd try to find a break in a cable, all to no effect. Same with making a loop and kinking it tight.

I was worried about breaking the cable and didn't go where it was close to breaking, but did exercise it a bit, with frustration being the only result.

As dinner time was approaching, I stopped and wrote this up, and now dinner is here.

Any thoughts?

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Nice work Dan!

The service centre in the US has spoken to the service centre here in Australia and the tech has called me this morning.
It's nice to see a company providing this level of service!

Behringer have said they recommend NON SHIELDED cat5e wired to T568b specs. (T568a and T568b are identical electrically, just the colour order changes).
They say that the capacitance from the shield can cause problems.

I am wondering also about the possibility of a static build up on the shield and the subsequent discharge. From memory the weather was very dry at the times I have had issues.
In your test, Dan, it could be that you were inducing a static charge on the cable as you pulled it and it slid along.
I just checked my cables and the shield is not connected at either end. ie: no drain path for static build up. It's something to consider!

Darren

 

[Rob Spence]

Thanks for this, Rob, but it begs the question:

Is it abusing a snake to stand on it or straighten out a kink? Or mildly kink it?

If so, that is a scary concept for live sound, one which has not been obvious with other digital snakes.

Is there something special about AES50 that is not special about other digital formats (if that is the right word)?

In my world, snakes of any sort do not have kinks and are not stood on.
I treat them with care. They are expensive and the show depends on them.
My crews place them with care so they are not damaged.

YMMV


Sent from my iPad HD

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Monitor out noise

Hi Per,

Comments in line:

Totally get that, and given proper gain and send levels, I see no reason why a noise a few dB above noise floor would represent a problem if the total dynamic range is still adequate, and in my opinion 110 dB is adequate for most purposes.
Just turning it down all the way to get as close as possible to measuring the output stage only, might not be particularly relevant to this discussion. However, the default position for a monitor engineer must surely be whatever setting that gives the correct nominal level at his monitor when the signal at the desk is at nominal level. Defaulting to max output levels and max gain on monitor amplification and then turning down the send levels will surely lift the noise floor and sometimes introduce a dangerously generous peakroom. I'm not a fan of working that way.

This is a place where we seem to be talking past each other.

The default position for a monitor engineer is what allows them to hear exactly what is going on through the stage monitors, which is a listening volume that is at unity gain with what's going on on stage. Don't know if saying it twice in slightly different ways makes it clearer.

The Monitor out pot is at unity gain when at full clockwise travel. That has nothing to do with "max output levels and max gain on monitor amplification", it is "making this the same level as that".

We are talking about what happens before any gain adjustment on power amps; as long as the listen wedge amp gain is set the same as the stage wedge amp gain (and both are the same kind of amp), and as long as the monitor out pot on the X32 is set to unity which is full up, then the engineer hears exactly what is going on onstage.

Does it make sense why that is the way to do it, and why I would be cheesed if there was not a workaround for the monitor out whine?

Presumably that Meyer was turned all the way up. I don't know how much it compresses at max input level, but will assume that it's getting to at least 115 dB/1m at nominal input, so I can understand that a -80 dB whine will be pretty annoying and tiresome if one chooses to set it up like that, but again, why use maximum gain in a quiet setting?

There is no gain adjustment on most Meyer powered speakers (it is an extra-cost option, though, so some will have an attenuator not a gain). That way one speaker of a particular model has the exact same gain as another individual of the same model. Max gain and min gain are not relevant concepts. Volume is set by whatever is ahead of the speaker.

And thank you for putting up with me.~~:smile: Had written a more thorough answer, but then the thing locked up when trying to upload a picture, so had to write it all again ~:-(~:sad:

I hate it when that happens. I've taken to copying what I typed just before hitting "post", just in case it disappears. I've had it happen here and at the other live audio forum (and other places, too.)

Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond, and I hope you are maybe seeing what it is that I'm trying to say.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

In my world, snakes of any sort do not have kinks and are not stood on.
I treat them with care. They are expensive and the show depends on them.
My crews place them with care so they are not damaged.

YMMV

~~:smile:

First response:

I'm happy you live in a perfectly genteel world....

-Typed by hand

Second response:

In my experience, things like kinks, pulling, hanging, etc. which do not inherently damage the cable are instructive for showing shortcomings in a cable. If something is damaged/disrupted by a minor kink it will be equally damaged by the cable holding its own weight from being hung, especially if you are not allowed to use your own crews to hang or place it.

And if the signal flow is interrupted by a cable being handled or stood upon, that is a very fragile signal flow and no amount of babying is going to stop a problem from occurring at some time or another when you least want it to occur.

IMHO of course...

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Nice work Dan!

The service centre in the US has spoken to the service centre here in Australia and the tech has called me this morning.
It's nice to see a company providing this level of service!

Behringer have said they recommend NON SHIELDED cat5e wired to T568b specs. (T568a and T568b are identical electrically, just the colour order changes).
They say that the capacitance from the shield can cause problems.

I am wondering also about the possibility of a static build up on the shield and the subsequent discharge. From memory the weather was very dry at the times I have had issues.
In your test, Dan, it could be that you were inducing a static charge on the cable as you pulled it and it slid along.
I just checked my cables and the shield is not connected at either end. ie: no drain path for static build up. It's something to consider!

Darren

Thanks, Darren, and thank for the info. I feel like I haven't achieved my goal, though, which was to more precisely determine when this phenomenon is happening and why. I wouldn't think static is involved, as the glitch persists as long as I'm putting tension (maybe 10 pounds? Not a lot...) on the cable, and stops when I stop. It seemed more like squashing and pulling, but then I couldn't get it to do it regardless of how much squashing and pulling I did.

It's still set up, and I'll try again tomorrow to replicate the cable configuration in the pictures, although it is not orderly.

It does seem like it's a capacitance issue, as the cable is not severed, so only the relationships amongt the little wires must be changing in there and causing something. Maybe?

And this reminds me: someone responded to the post where I put up the pictures of the snake with the same wire components but organized in a different way, and said that the Dura Tuff jacket must not be very thick because he could see the spiralling. That spiral was from me twisting three of the Dura Tuff cables into a little rope-like thing, and then incorporating that with the AC cable and an analog 4 pair into a twisted whole.

When you look at the Dura Tuff cable all you see is what feels like a thick, stiff plastic jacket. The shape of the wires inside is no way visible. FYI.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Monitor out noise

This is a place where we seem to be talking past each other.

Just like real life :blush:

The default position for a monitor engineer is what allows them to hear exactly what is going on through the stage monitors, which is a listening volume that is at unity gain with what's going on on stage. Don't know if saying it twice in slightly different ways makes it clearer.

The Monitor out pot is at unity gain when at full clockwise travel. That has nothing to do with "max output levels and max gain on monitor amplification", it is "making this the same level as that".

We are talking about what happens before any gain adjustment on power amps; as long as the listen wedge amp gain is set the same as the stage wedge amp gain (and both are the same kind of amp), and as long as the monitor out pot on the X32 is set to unity which is full up, then the engineer hears exactly what is going on onstage.

Does it make sense why that is the way to do it, and why I would be cheesed if there was not a workaround for the monitor out whine?.

Yes of course, didn't think of it that way, I'm used to small stages and small rooms and no listen wedge at mixpos and tend to attenuate monitors and amps quite a lot in my settings, so I just didn't see what you were trying to communicate to my stubborn mind. :blush: Well, if you at first don't succeed, try and try again. Or, as Homer Simpson puts it: If at first you don't succed, give up. The choise is yours ~~:smile:

There is no gain adjustment on most Meyer powered speakers (it is an extra-cost option, though, so some will have an attenuator not a gain). That way one speaker of a particular model has the exact same gain as another individual of the same model. Max gain and min gain are not relevant concepts. Volume is set by whatever is ahead of the speaker..

Powered stuff with no attenuation is a pita in my world of mixing and matching, sometimes using stuff for other than it's intended purpose and quite often hooking up to substandard and noisy equipment.

I hate it when that happens. I've taken to copying what I typed just before hitting "post", just in case it disappears. I've had it happen here and at the other live audio forum (and other places, too.)

Copy before post is SOP, unfortunately I haven't quite included copy before any action in my routine. Shit happens, we learn - or not.

Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond, and I hope you are maybe seeing what it is that I'm trying to say.

So what was that you were trying to say, can you repeat? :lol:

Have you tried fiddling with the monitor setting? What if you attenuate the monitor at the pot and compensate by turning it up in the monitor section? I know that it removes some headroom, but if there is some unused headroom there it could be used to lower the noise floor.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Behringer have said they recommend NON SHIELDED cat5e wired to T568b specs. (T568a and T568b are identical electrically, just the colour order changes).

Hmm, I wonder why the b spec? Is it possible that in long lengths the difference in propagation factor between the pairs skews the sync enough to make it slightly marginal with the a spec?

 

[Karl Barnes]

Linking/pairing channels

Does anyone know if vertical pairing of channels is being considered for a future software/firmware update?
Horizontal is all well and good until you have 5 stereo devices on the same layer.
I could do with bumping one of each of those pairs to another layer, like I could do on the 01v96/LS9, etc (sure, it was a global setting, but at least the choice was there).
That would give me 5 much needed faders back on my primary layer.

Karl.

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

I am wondering also about the possibility of a static build up on the shield and the subsequent discharge. From memory the weather was very dry at the times I have had issues.
In your test, Dan, it could be that you were inducing a static charge on the cable as you pulled it and it slid along.
I just checked my cables and the shield is not connected at either end. ie: no drain path for static build up. It's something to consider!

Darren

Sheer genius! ~:-D~:grin:

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Live Recording with X32

Here's a song that was recording live with the x32 using the USB 2 Track thats built in the X32

Hope ya like..

Long train runing by Livemusic Festus on SoundCloud - Hear the world

Wow Randy. Nice.

What efx did you have setup on the lead and backup vocals? Actually, could you send me the scene if you saved it and I could look at how you had it setup.

You do a great mix!

 

[Brett Tippet]

Re: Live Recording with X32

Wow Randy. Nice.

What efx did you have setup on the lead and backup vocals? Actually, could you send me the scene if you saved it and I could look at how you had it setup.

You do a great mix!

id also love the scene.

 

[Randy Martin]

Re: Live Recording with X32

Wow Randy. Nice.

What efx did you have setup on the lead and backup vocals? Actually, could you send me the scene if you saved it and I could look at how you had it setup.

You do a great mix!

Well thanks, The efx i use are the Vintage room reverb on instruments and the Hall reverb on Vocals and the Stereo delay.. But also i use an very old Lexicon LXP1 which is my my hidden gun on vocals. I have been using an LXP1 for years now and i just can't get rid of it. Its the best sounding little unit around. I use the Plate reverb in the unit and put it on Vocals and the other reverb i use in the X32 i just use a touch of it and the Stereo Delay.

Vocal mic with that band are 2 SM 58's and a sm57 with a wind screen for the drummer to kinda filter out the cym's noise the lead singers both use sennheiser 935.

I use the compressors in the desk and also the deesser's in the desk also. The Deessers need alot more work i have them cranked all the way and if there working well maby these deaf ears can't hear the diffrents but im sure there not working right hopefully when the 2.0 firmware comes out they will fix them to make them work LOL..

The X32 is a fine desk for the money i have been using my old crest centry 40ch desk for years and its sounds great but at 300 lbs its a beast to bring in and the foot print
is way to much..

I still bring in my 32 space FOH rack but it has a table the pops out on one of the doors so the x32 fits real nice on it plus the rack has all my EQ's for FOH..

Randy

 

[Declan Slater]

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

So Dan, a couple questions... First, why the yellow power cable dude? Second, was your cat-5 shielded or not, shield connected or not, cat-5 or 6? Third, most importantly, did you try a different cable - it may work with other systems, but random problems can be difficult to trace. I find that most emi from power cables get's canceled out inside itself by the neutral and ground wires, if you put a clamp on ammeter over the whole cable it reads 0 amps. Are there ethercons on your cable?

Interesting to hear the official spec calls for cat-5 utp cable. Nice to know. I use cat-6, the little plastic separator inside makes it bigger and stiffer (that's what "she" said), but it seems to work well enough.

Thanks, Darren, and thank for the info. I feel like I haven't achieved my goal, though, which was to more precisely determine when this phenomenon is happening and why. I wouldn't think static is involved, as the glitch persists as long as I'm putting tension (maybe 10 pounds? Not a lot...) on the cable, and stops when I stop. It seemed more like squashing and pulling, but then I couldn't get it to do it regardless of how much squashing and pulling I did.

It's still set up, and I'll try again tomorrow to replicate the cable configuration in the pictures, although it is not orderly.

It does seem like it's a capacitance issue, as the cable is not severed, so only the relationships amongt the little wires must be changing in there and causing something. Maybe?

And this reminds me: someone responded to the post where I put up the pictures of the snake with the same wire components but organized in a different way, and said that the Dura Tuff jacket must not be very thick because he could see the spiralling. That spiral was from me twisting three of the Dura Tuff cables into a little rope-like thing, and then incorporating that with the AC cable and an analog 4 pair into a twisted whole.

When you look at the Dura Tuff cable all you see is what feels like a thick, stiff plastic jacket. The shape of the wires inside is no way visible. FYI.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Monitor out noise

Yes of course, didn't think of it that way, I'm used to small stages and small rooms and no listen wedge at mixpos and tend to attenuate monitors and amps quite a lot in my settings...

Yes, this kind of relates to having this thread in the Junior Varsity, which by definition is for people who are doing sound sporadically as one step up from a hobby, or are getting ready to take that step, rather than currently generating serious money that can be used to get good stuff. This console kind of blurs the line between JV and Varsity, or at least it does for me.

There are many Varsity situations where there is no way the X32 would be appropriate (including every one where you need 33 full-featured inputs), but that still leaves numerous situations where it is just the thing. The festival I did last month would have cost around a quarter million dollars to do a year ago with purchased consoles/snake systems then available that would be comparable to the X32's. My company did it with X32's and accoutrements for in the ballpark of a tenth of that, and it was fine in almost every aspect. The areas where it was less than fine were operational rather than hardware related, and not noticed by anyone but my staff. And now I'm ready for next year and other events in the meantime!

FWIW, I am still a believer in separate amps for monitor systems, in part because the attenuator on the amp channels gives you one more tool when faced with an unsolveable noise, and also because the proper routing of powered monitor signal and power to be ready to cover a variety of situations is an expensive proposition. Other people are all on board with powered monitors, though, so they don't agree with me.

Powered stuff with no attenuation is a pita in my world of mixing and matching, sometimes using stuff for other than it's intended purpose...

I am in the same boat with you on the last point (using stuff for other than its intended purpose), but differ with you about the first one when you don't have to mix and match, or when you mix and match with the proper control devices in between (this is a whole other thread).

Having the exact same box that performs exactly the same way in every situation removes a significant variable from the equation, IMHO. Having no controls to get left in the wrong position is a remarkable time-saver in most situations, and gives confidence in what is going on in that part of the system. Ignoring the issue of what could happen if there is a problem with box #16 that is way up in the air, an ignorance which is possible only if the manufacturer has made valiant efforts to build reliable gear and once in a while not even then, things get simple with no amp racks, although, again, power and signal distribution can be more complex than with unpowered systems. But there are generally fewer places in FOH PA needing power and signal runs, so once you've figured it out, that part is done. And no amp racks!

Have you tried fiddling with the monitor setting? What if you attenuate the monitor at the pot and compensate by turning it up in the monitor section? I know that it removes some headroom, but if there is some unused headroom there it could be used to lower the noise floor.

This is still kind of missing my point. That set of monitor outputs is basically a Y'd output, let's say from the L-R outputs. If you physically removed the Monitor attenuator from the signal path and hard wired it through, the signal on the Monitor Outs would be EXACTLY the same as it is now with the attenuator full up, which is EXACTLY the same as the signal on the L-R outs (except coming through a different preamp), and that is what is wanted in Monitor world.

And, actually, it's SHOULD BE exactly the same but isn't now, because that output has a very different noise floor than the L-R outs, and that is what is objectionable without the workaround. Headroom does not enter into consideration one way or the other, because the headroom of the Monitor output should be exactly the same as the outputs it is monitoring.

So, no, I haven't tried what you suggest.

I do notice that the poor misguided souls who are attempting to use this live PA console as a recording console have been notably silent about this Monitor Out noise issue since I've started bloviating about it. I have ASSumed that they use the Monitor Outs as the feed for their studio monitors, but don't really know what goes on in those locked studios when the lights go out....

Maybe they've fixed it somehow to their satisfaction.

Well, if you at first don't succeed, try and try again. Or, as Homer Simpson puts it: If at first you don't succed, give up. The choise is yours ~~:smile:

As you can see, I try, try, try, try again. ~~:smile:

Thanks again for engaging in a discussion. I enjoy sharing points of view, and hope that comes across.

 

[Nick Simon]

Re: Live Recording with X32

Here's a song that was recording live with the x32 using the USB 2 Track thats built in the X32

Hope ya like..

Long train runing by Livemusic Festus on SoundCloud - Hear the world

Impressed as well... so you use the onboard Vintage and stereo delay.. I' using those too, but I think the difference is the little plate you have with the lexicon, like a cherry on top... might try that trick too, instead of the pitch shifter ive been splashing in on harmonies, etc. dialed in at about 9 cents for flava....