X32 Discussion

Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Dan Mortensen;52483 So it would seem that you are at least four months late to the party .[/FONT said:
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Hey Dan, I am equally as frustrated as you with this mystery issues that have cropped up with the system as well as the proper cable configuration, however you can't really blame Behringer for possibly your lack of research on the topic. I know you have made a significant investment in this product as have I, and in doing so, I read until my eyes bugged out about what is the best cable to get blah blah , and opt'd to get the best cable I could afford (or rather amount of $ I was willing to shell out for it).

I assumed that regular cat 5 wasn't going to cut it, and knew that was BS if anyone ever uttered those words. I haven't tried my system live yet, and the only issue I've had to date is the audio cutting out when I stepped on a regular cat 5 cable when testing the system in my basement.

I wish it wasn't the case - but I'll be treating my tactical cat5 cable as if it were a multicore snake when I'm out on a gig. There will be cable mats and there will be a/c run from the stage out to FOH. I'm thinking the only benefit at this point is the lack of weight involved in a multicore snake.

Because this cable is fairly cheap I went with two options ( 150ft and 260ft), that way I won't have any cable lying on a reel creating any issues on short run gigs...
I am glad you are fighting the good fight, but don't forget to take a little stock in your decisions too (good or bad).
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Shane Presley said:
Hey Dan, I am equally as frustrated as you with this mystery issues that have cropped up with the system as well as the proper cable configuration, however you can't really blame Behringer for possibly your lack of research on the topic.... don't forget to take a little stock in your decisions too (good or bad).
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Hi Shane,

Thanks, but if you look at my post just above yours, I feel I did research what was needed and went beyond what everything from Behringer said was sufficient.

The funny thing is that I don't feel like I'm having a ton of problems, or that the snake problem that I've experienced is something I'm not willing to live with (as long as it doesn't get worse by randomly occurring as a couple people have alleged). There are pluses and minuses with any system, and from talking with guys who do have the $50,000 and more digital mixers, nothing is foolproof and nothing always, always works. I still think the X32 is a remarkable console, and remarkable for the money.

I do feel that the digital console world is mysterious and has rules and procedures that I am not previously aware of, which I perceive as a series of problems to be solved. I feel like I've been diligently doing that, one by one, and feel pretty good about where I and my company are right now in that regard.

What I'm not liking, which was expressed in the posts above, is that as of today the rules for a very important part of the system have changed, and were apparently misrepresented all along, after I'm committed down a path (Cat5e of whatever unshielded kind) which has worked well so far but is apparently the wrong one.

And, unlike you, while on this path so far my company has done a number of shows, something like 60 or 70 band sets over maybe 400+ hours, and except for one occasion during setup, all consoles and snakes have performed flawlessly. Most of those shows have been high-pressure, with a lot on the line, and the consoles made them easy.

I do use cable mats and ramps when appropriate and always have and always will run AC from the stage, just like you. I don't use reels, all unused cable is either in a case figure 8'd, or on the deck figure 8'd (cases have cutouts for cable throughput, if that's the right word). My peers around here who have seen my rigs are always impressed with the state of my cables of all kinds, and I've apparently given the wrong impression about the harsh way I treat my snakes, which is not harsh at all. I'm still periodically using an analog 27 pair snake that I built in 1980.

However, I absolutely feel a snake system which has been properly built should be able to stand some abuse, without affecting function or longevity. That's why we use SOOWA and similar AC cable (along with the legality thing), not SJO or vinyl.

No question there'll be surprises along the way, it's just very disappointing when they are created by the guys who are supposed to be on your side, and who have previously amply demonstrated that they are committed to helping us succeed.

Thanks,
Dan
 
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Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Dan Mortensen said:

Sorry to be antagonistic, but I've just spent multiple thousand dollars, relying on what Behringer has said before March 22, 2013, to build what I thought was a bulletproof snake scheme, an expense I felt was justified since the snake is the lifeline of any sound system.

And certainly I'm not the only one who relied on the earlier information and bought accordingly.
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Page 3 of the Quick Start Guide, Last paragraph on the page.

"To fully comply with national legislation including (but not limited to) transposition of EC EMC Directive 2004/108/EC by EU member states and FCC Part 15 for the United States of America, all connections made to Ultranet, Ethernet and AES50 ports A and B on the Behringer X32 must be made using shielded CAT5/5e or CAT6 cables."

Grounding the shield is done with shielded 8P8C connectors (aka RJ45). The Ethercon barrel does not serve as the shield, but a mechanical protection for the 8P8C itself.
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Interesting, seems from Jan was saying, and correct me if I am mistaken, that the spec for shielded cable seems to more about EMI radiation going OUT of the cable, rather than shielding it from stray EMI going in. He did talk about avoiding HF radiation into the cable, but also talked about rejection circuitry present that reduces that. I also noticed when I got the P-16m's they came with a 20' shielded cat-5 cable. My experience with other digital consoles strongly supports the fact that having to keep the ac on the same circuit/panel/phase like in the analog snake days is totally not nessesary (unless your running some analog sends or returns from there to stage.

It ALMOST seems that they ment to use commonly found utp cables, but the regulations regarding EMI forced them to officially state the use of shielded cable.

My heartfelt condolences go out to all folks who spent $$ for utp cable... I think I'll stick with cat-6 utp for a while, since it's worked perfectly for years with my Roland digital stuff.

Aaron Hammett said:
Page 3 of the Quick Start Guide, Last paragraph on the page.

"To fully comply with national legislation including (but not limited to) transposition of EC EMC Directive 2004/108/EC by EU member states and FCC Part 15 for the United States of America, all connections made to Ultranet, Ethernet and AES50 ports A and B on the Behringer X32 must be made using shielded CAT5/5e or CAT6 cables."

Grounding the shield is done with shielded 8P8C connectors (aka RJ45). The Ethercon barrel does not serve as the shield, but a mechanical protection for the 8P8C itself.
Click to expand...
 
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Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Aaron Hammett said:
Page 3 of the Quick Start Guide, Last paragraph on the page.

"To fully comply with national legislation including (but not limited to) transposition of EC EMC Directive 2004/108/EC by EU member states and FCC Part 15 for the United States of America, all connections made to Ultranet, Ethernet and AES50 ports A and B on the Behringer X32 must be made using shielded CAT5/5e or CAT6 cables."

Grounding the shield is done with shielded 8P8C connectors (aka RJ45). The Ethercon barrel does not serve as the shield, but a mechanical protection for the 8P8C itself.
Click to expand...

While abusing the cable and the environment: The easiest way to test this is to make a rj-45breakout cable and attach an oscilloscope with at least two channels while having the setup connected and operational.

This way you could see if cmr, dc-offsets, spikes affects the signal...

Another way is to connect only two computers to each other using the network utp and check the network card statistics for communication errors.

What I don't like about using shielded utp is that it introduces a source of potential ground voltage/noice offset since the mixer and stagebox may be connected to completly different power sources with a mismatched ground causing a ground loop.

I guess using an ethernet lightpipe would be the best way of dealing with electrical problems. There are converters out there and you can place your stagebox miles instead of feet from your mixer ;-)
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Since begin december i use the s16s with a VanDamme tourcat (STP CAT 5E) 50m drum.
Indoor ever i use the next wall plug for foh-mains - most unknown potential to
the s16. From foh to stage goes only one cable - the tourcat (dmx is wireless).
There were never the entire 50m settled and remained on the drum.
Everything worked so far without trouble (ca. 25 Gigs).
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Aaron Hammett said:
Page 3 of the Quick Start Guide, Last paragraph on the page.

"To fully comply with national legislation including (but not limited to) transposition of EC EMC Directive 2004/108/EC by EU member states and FCC Part 15 for the United States of America, all connections made to Ultranet, Ethernet and AES50 ports A and B on the Behringer X32 must be made using shielded CAT5/5e or CAT6 cables."

Grounding the shield is done with shielded 8P8C connectors (aka RJ45). The Ethercon barrel does not serve as the shield, but a mechanical protection for the 8P8C itself.
Click to expand...

Sigh..., brilliant documentation job from the Behringer guys, I won't comment any further than saying that I know how hard it is to get absolutely everything in there. So how do we go about this then? Will a shielded connector be grounded to the chassis of the X32 and S16? And if not, do we pull out the drain wire and make a ground connection? Where is the ground screw on the X32? Haven't noticed it, but havent really looked.
If a shielded cable with a shielded connector is what is called for, and the shield will ground when inserted, then what kind if cable exactly am I looking for, is there a standard, or do I just hunt for "shielded ca5 with shielded connector"???
Sorry for my ignorance, all I ever nedded to know about ethernet cable is that either it works or it gets tossed, and in the old days I had to keep the crossovres separate from the straights.
 
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Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Robert Lofgren said:
I guess using an ethernet lightpipe would be the best way of dealing with electrical problems. There are converters out there and you can place your stagebox miles instead of feet from your mixer ;-)
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You'd need one that is transparent to the layer-2 packet format - this would seem to fit the bill at a reasonable price:

LHC201A-EU, Pure Networking 10/100 Media Converter - Black Box

Unfortunately if you want fibre cables >20m in length you'll probably have to have them made to order (making them yourself requires expensive tools).
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

The shielded cat-5 cable has a metalized RJ-45 end on both ends (plastic with a special metal film or something flashed over the outside of the connector). The shield has a drain wire wrapped into it, and that wire is then soldered to the outside of the metalized RJ-45. If an ethercon is used, it is assembled the same way as normal over the outside of the RJ-45 with it's locking tab broken off, just be sure not to add too much solder so that it still fits in it. No special tools are required, just the metalized ends, and wiring it to the "B" spec.

Dave Korman said:
You'd need one that is transparent to the layer-2 packet format - this would seem to fit the bill at a reasonable price:

LHC201A-EU, Pure Networking 10/100 Media Converter - Black Box

Unfortunately if you want fibre cables >20m in length you'll probably have to have them made to order (making them yourself requires expensive tools).
Click to expand...
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Dave Korman said:
You'd need one that is transparent to the layer-2 packet format - this would seem to fit the bill at a reasonable price:

LHC201A-EU, Pure Networking 10/100 Media Converter - Black Box

Unfortunately if you want fibre cables >20m in length you'll probably have to have them made to order (making them yourself requires expensive tools).
Click to expand...
There is/was a cheaper variant of 'fibre' that is plastic and for consumer use. No special tools required if my memory servers me. Its limitation was that it couldn't be routed several kilometers.
 
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Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Robert Lofgren said:
There is/was a cheaper variant of 'fibre' that is plastic and for consumer use. No special tools required if my memory servers me. Its limitation was that it couldn't be routed several kilometers.
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There certainly is for SPDIF/TOSlink connections. I've never seen it in pre-made duplex form with SC connectors, or in bulk.

On the other hand, you can get this:

Deployable Fibre Optic
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Dave Korman said:
You'd need one that is transparent to the layer-2 packet format - this would seem to fit the bill at a reasonable price:

LHC201A-EU, Pure Networking 10/100 Media Converter - Black Box

Unfortunately if you want fibre cables >20m in length you'll probably have to have them made to order (making them yourself requires expensive tools).
Click to expand...

Doubt it would work. The sync of the AES50 is very specific, and the timing so critical that any equipment not set up for the very purpose is not likely to work.
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Per Søvik said:
Doubt it would work. The sync of the AES50 is very specific, and the timing so critical that any equipment not set up for the very purpose is not likely to work.
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If that is the case then claiming it to be compatible with layer-1 of Ethernet is a little dubious, IMO. It's
something that Behringer could easily check out, I'm sure.
 
Re: CAT+power-cable test results

Joe Sanborn said:
X32 Webinar Series

Hi Guys,


Note: In my original post for the webinars there was an extra HTTP in the links so I am reposting.

We are offering a new series of Webinars starting this Saturday.
 Please join us for a fun and informative Webinar.
 The first 30 minutes are instruction followed by 30 minutes of open Q&A.



I hope you can make it!



Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

X32Live! Webinar/User Group - S16 Setup and Configuration
Join us for a Webinar on March 23
Space is limited.
Reserve your Webinar seat now at:

https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/236035359

This webinar will show how to setup, configure and route your X32 and S16 Digital Snake. 
The format will be 30 minutes of instruction followed by a 30 minute Q&A session.

X32 S16 Setup and Configuration Webinar
Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013
Time: 11:00 AM - 12:00 PM PDT

​
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Thanks, Joe and John, for a most informative webinar today, and for being so open in responding to questions. Proper interconnect cabling is pretty fundamental to reliable usage of the S16/X32 combo, and I will be interested to see how Jan responds after the weekend to the discussion here. I'm particularly interested in a reconciliation between the various Behringer recommendations and what he said in his post, and note here that a quick Markertek search does not show that a premade rugged shielded CAT cable exists "off-the-shelf" or by special order from their comprehensive resources.

Content:

Thanks for clarifying that the "Stagebox Head Amp Lockout" menu option does not affect the config at the S16. The prospect of idle hands onstage accidentally reconfiguring the stage box (e.g. sampling rate) has been worrisome, as that means the show stops. Yes, change is a two step process, but there are other little buttons nearby that can be pushed constructively, and the knob can be easily turned without intention by the side of the hand, so it's not hard to imagine an accident.

Since I am freaked out enough at gigs and worrying about things going wrong, fewer possibilities for failure means focusing on fewer uncontrollables, so here is a fail-safe:

1) Using a flat chunk of clear plastic cut out of this biscotti box (available at Costco, and good on gigs cause there's bread, nuts and chocolate individually wrapped),IMG_0471.jpg


2) Color what will be the inside of it with a black Marksalot IMG_0472.jpg
3) Cut it to the diameter of those pesky Velcro self-adhesive dots that came with a Velcro set and have been useless until now, IMG_0473.jpg


4) Stick a dot of hooks to the back of the plastic circle and punch an access holeIMG_0474.jpg



5) Punch 4 holes in a pile dot so that it fits around and not touching the square "Config" button and stick it to the front panel IMG_0475.jpg


6) Connect one pile and one hook dot back to back, and punch 4 holes to fit around the "Config" button, attach to pile button on front panel to build depth, IMG_0476.jpg

7) Attach plastic/hook combo on top IMG_0477.jpg


Voila! No finger can accidentally push the button, but a paper clip or whatever can push the button for the infrequent Config changing.

There was also a question in the Webinar about labeling, and I, too, found that to be an issue and too easily confusing when patching inputs above 17 and outputs above 8. IMG_0480.jpgIMG_0481.jpg


With a lot of trial and error (wish I'd heard Joe say there were layout programs available!) on a P-Touch, I eventually got an acceptable spacing, and the inputs are much more readable IMG_0482.jpg

Since the outputs will change function over time, I used some of the glow-tape to create a writable surface for Vis-a-Vis water soluble markers so the labels can easily change IMG_0483.jpg



The entire stage rack then looks like this IMG_0484.jpg

with stage AC in the middle and the UPS that the S16's and both monitor consoles plug into on the bottom. The carabiners are for strain reliefs for the subsnakes and stage AC cables, and are tied to the sturdy handles on the S16.

And that made for several less things to worry about.

Hope this was interesting, and thanks again for the informative webinar.
 
S16 Webinar

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your comments and for attending the Webinar today. Glad you enjoyed it.
You had excellent questions and added a lot to the event.

As discussed I will get official word on cable suggestions.

Hope you can make future events.

Next webinar is this Monday:
X32Live! Webinar/User Group - Setting Up and Using XControl
Join us for a Webinar on March 25
Space is limited.
Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/607121439

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Dave Korman said:
If that is the case then claiming it to be compatible with layer-1 of Ethernet is a little dubious, IMO. It's
something that Behringer could easily check out, I'm sure.
Click to expand...

It is probably layer one transparent as far as ethernet is concerned, and it might even work as AES50 on short distance, but if the round trip of the sync takes too long, you will lose sync. An AES50 extender obviously handles the sync (presumably syncing itself with the equipment it is connected to), a BaseT extender isn't equipped to do so.
 
Re: S16 Webinar

Thanks, Joe, I thought there were many other excellent questions, too, and you and John did a good job of answering them all as completely as possible. The scenario with the six S16's and two consoles will have me thinking for a while. Who thought of that, and was it in response to a particular need? Did it work out at the event like they thought?

Can't attend Monday; that's the day I visit my 94 y.o. friend who was an engineer at CBS' 30th St Studio in NYC from when it opened until it closed. He is an amazing story, but off topic alas, and we've had several AES meetings about him. He won the AES Honorary Member Award a couple years ago, joining Harry Olson, Leonard Bernstein, Sir George Martin, Harry Nyquist, Walt Disney, Chet Atkins, and about a hundred other equally distinguished and diverse people.

He's not doing great these days, and last week we started reading to him from a nice bio book of Tony Bennett, for whom he was *the* engineer for over 40 years. He enjoyed it and laughed in the right places.

Back on topic: I'll look forward to seeing the video of the seminar. Have spent about 5 minutes so far with XControl for the Mac.

Thanks again,
Dan

PS I won a nice leather suitcase from Shure once for asking the best questions at a seminar, which only encouraged me to not worry about asking dumb questions & is probably why I'm so verbose here and other places. Plus this (X32) is a many-faceted interesting and relevant topic with a lot of mysteries that are fun to identify and/or solve or not.
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Here's an excerpt from the Roland manual, they also recommend using a ferrite choke clamped down on each end of the cable.

Cautions for handling Cat5e cables •Do not apply excessive force to Cat5e cables. •Do not bundle (bend) a Cat5e cable to a radius less than 25 mm, or fold it in two. •Do not tightly bundle a Cat5e cable. •Do not place multiple Cat5e cables in parallel for an extended distance. •Do not place Cat5e cables near a source of electrical noise (power supply cord, motor, fluorescent lights, etc.).

They also sell a nice premade cat-5 shielded cables in 60 meter and 100 meter lengths with ethercons and a nice spool to keep it on, there is never any talk of having to remove the cable from the spool or lay it on the ground in a figure 8 pattern.
 
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