X32 Discussion

Re: Bus Send Pre Insert?

We are slowly getting there. I would not have a problem summing the outputs of the Dugan in the Multirack. It could be a mono return AFAIC. Especially as I would sometimes be expecting to use sixteen channels of Dugan. What I'm still not clear on is the physical connection between the X32 and the Multirack PC. Would it be USB from the card? Could the PC accept that without some fancy interface?

Sorry to be so dumb, I have very little experience of the multi-channel digital connections on the X32.

Mick Berg.
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Dan Mortensen said:
Hi Antoon,

What does this mean? I have no concept of what would be involved, but encourage you to do a prototype to see if it works or not.

Thanks,
Dan
Click to expand...

I should make a PCB for it, no problem, but it takes time, I'm also not absolutely sure what the best ESD clamps are. You want low capacity and good clamping.
It could be a way to have ESD surges outside of the X32., and direct them from the clamps straight into the patch panel ground and mains ground.

Edit: Like this: http://www.citytechnology.com.au/store/lightning-surge-protector-cat5-cat5e-poe-rj45

You don't know any UTP cable that don't build up charge in the plastic shield?
 
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Re: STP vs. UTP

Dan Mortensen said:
Hi All,
...
This seems significantly different than what we've heard about X32's and the reasons for their need for STP. It now appears to me that there is something lacking in the X32 in their resistance to sparking, and the STP is a bandaid to fix that lack.

...
Click to expand...

Dear Dan and Antoon,

it is important not to mix up ESD and RFI artifacts. Your assumptions may make sense from an RFI perspective (where problems can be confined to specific components or parts of a device), but ESD is affecting products in a totally different way. From basic electric laws, you may consider that the impact of any given electric charge will be largely depending on the device's mass and its grounding impedance.

There is an obvious disparity of typical MIDAS mixing environments (XL8 or Pro Series consoles with large and heavy chassis plus I/O racks, solidly grounded) and smaller BEHRINGER (X32 + S16) setups. This is the reason why from a BEHRINGER perspective we recommend using screened and grounded cables, while UTP may confidently be used in the MIDAS world.

Please also consider that the MIDAS PRO Series consoles allow for dual-redundant AES50 connectivity, which in this context may help to further reduce the screen and grounding impedance and distribute the impact of any ESD. Other than that, there is no technical difference between an AES50 port on MIDAS and BEHRINGER products.

The good news for our customers is, that we have just placed a large order for a high quality, ruggedized Neutrik etherFLEX cable that will be provided by KlarkTeknik on a 50 m Schill drum. We will announce this officially at PLS, Frankfurt, in a couple of weeks from now.

Hope that helps.
Best,
Jan
 
Re: Bus Send Pre Insert?

Mick Berg said:
We are slowly getting there. I would not have a problem summing the outputs of the Dugan in the Multirack. It could be a mono return AFAIC. Especially as I would sometimes be expecting to use sixteen channels of Dugan. What I'm still not clear on is the physical connection between the X32 and the Multirack PC. Would it be USB from the card? Could the PC accept that without some fancy interface?
Click to expand...

No problem, USB from the X_USB interface would work, with a well tweaked set-up, the buffer can be reduced, but I think the default is something like 14mS latency.

With the present routing (firmware 1.15) you would route the 16 channels post fader to P16, then have P16 as source for card out. (<P16> tab and <card out> tab in <ROUTING>)
In Waves Multirack or Live Professoror route to the Dugan plugin and then sum to one or more channels that will be routed back to the card.
Back at the desk, use the appropriate channels from the card as source for one or more channels of returns that you send to mains
( select Card 1-2, Card 1-4, Card 1-6 or Card 1-8 as source in <ROUTING><home> for Aux in Remap or Inputs 17-24 or Inputs 25-32 )
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Jan Duwe said:

Dear Dan and Antoon,

it is important not to mix up ESD and RFI artifacts. Your assumptions may make sense from an RFI perspective (where problems can be confined to specific components or parts of a device), but ESD is affecting products in a totally different way. From basic electric laws, you may consider that the impact of any given electric charge will be largely depending on the device's mass and its grounding impedance.

There is an obvious disparity of typical MIDAS mixing environments (XL8 or Pro Series consoles with large and heavy chassis plus I/O racks, solidly grounded) and smaller BEHRINGER (X32 + S16) setups. This is the reason why from a BEHRINGER perspective we recommend using screened and grounded cables, while UTP may confidently be used in the MIDAS world.

Please also consider that the MIDAS PRO Series consoles allow for dual-redundant AES50 connectivity, which in this context may help to further reduce the screen and grounding impedance and distribute the impact of any ESD. Other than that, there is no technical difference between an AES50 port on MIDAS and BEHRINGER products.

The good news for our customers is, that we have just placed a large order for a high quality, ruggedized Neutrik etherFLEX cable that will be provided by KlarkTeknik on a 50 m Schill drum. We will announce this officially at PLS, Frankfurt, in a couple of weeks from now.

Hope that helps.
Best,
Jan
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, Jan.

While I'm not immediately persuaded that the X32 is smaller and lighter than all Midas products, and that that will make the difference between ESD problems and ESD no problems, I don't know them as well as you do and so will take what you say at face value. I guess the stage boxes are certainly smaller, S16 vs. whatever.

As was pointed out in another forum this morning, given the price point of the X32 family it would be much better if it were able to operate with cable that is cheaper and more importantly, more commonly available rather than a cable that you, Behringer, have to have made yourself to be sure to get the right one.

I'm happy to hear more specifics about the upcoming cable, though. Is it only available in 50 meter lengths, on a drum, and in single runs?

I have no use for drums, as I tape my snake cable together with an analog 4 or more pair, as well as the AC supply to FOH so that one pull gets it all. I also want to run multiple Ethercon runs to FOH, both as a backup and also because there are situations that need more than one Ethercon run.

Thanks again,
Dan

Edit: And if you're saying that mass is the only factor, why did the XL8 initially have problems and then not have problems? Its mass didn't change.

If more mass is better, why can't I just attach a chunk of aluminum to the bottom of an S16 chassis and have an immediate solution? Or enough S16's racked together to create an object the size of the Midas stage box?

The Pro 1 weighs 47.5 pounds, and the X32 is 45.4 pounds. Not much mass difference there, but one is OK with UTP and the other requires STP.

Sorry, need more explanation.
 
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Re: Bus Send Pre Insert?

Per Søvik said:
No problem, USB from the X_USB interface would work, with a well tweaked set-up, the buffer can be reduced, but I think the default is something like 14mS latency.

With the present routing (firmware 1.15) you would route the 16 channels post fader to P16, then have P16 as source for card out. (<P16> tab and <card out> tab in <ROUTING>)
In Waves Multirack or Live Professoror route to the Dugan plugin and then sum to one or more channels that will be routed back to the card.
Back at the desk, use the appropriate channels from the card as source for one or more channels of returns that you send to mains
( select Card 1-2, Card 1-4, Card 1-6 or Card 1-8 as source in <ROUTING><home> for Aux in Remap or Inputs 17-24 or Inputs 25-32 )
Click to expand...

Thanks Per, its beginning to make sense. I presume they call the USB out P16 although you don't have to attach a physical P16 to it, right?

BTW I have also sussed out the new scenes and snippets, with your help.

One more thing, I thought you could assign the RTA input to a channel, and then overlay that display on any EQ. But it doesn't seem to work. Am I getting this wrong? Seems it would be very useful. Also, I would like the ability to have the RTA in 3rd octave resolution, matching the GEQ's center frequencies. And a much slower display.


Many thanks,
Mick.
 
Re: Bus Send Pre Insert?

Mick Berg said:
Thanks Per, its beginning to make sense. I presume they call the USB out P16 although you don't have to attach a physical P16 to it, right?
Click to expand...

No, the P16 out is the Ultranet output, in my example, stuff just gets assigned to the P16 for the routing flexibility that this gives. It is the card out that defines what goes to the usb interface, and we only assign the channels to P16 so it can then be copied to the card.

You can set some preferences in the METERS section, there is an rta tab there. I think you can fix the rta channel and still have it displayed on all the eq backgrounds. I think you can set the speed as well, to average up to 10 seconds.
 
Reading X32 Config Files

Some time ago in this thread somebody created a great programme that would read X32 config files and print out a nice table of what was routed where etc.

Has this been developed at all and where is the link to the latest version?

Is there a web based version and a downloadable version?

.... and thanks in advance for all the hard work of whoever developed this.

Mike
 
AES50 Powered Speakers - iQ Range?

Has anybody seen sight of the iQ range of speakers that have the AES50 interface? I see they are still mentioned on the Turbosound website (rather than the Behringer brand name). Have they been launched and made commonly available yet?

Mike
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Dan Mortensen said:
...
As was pointed out in another forum this morning, given the price point of the X32 family it would be much better if it were able to operate with cable that is cheaper and more importantly, more commonly available rather than a cable that you, Behringer, have to have made yourself to be sure to get the right one...
Click to expand...
Dear Dan,
don't get me wrong, I am not inclined persuading you of anything, and I do have a lot of respect for your inquisitiveness. I can only contribute our considerations since we are observing the phenomena. When a lightning strikes your house there may be some technical precautions you could take, even though you will never know precisely what will be happening. Personally, if I can, I would try to shunt out the discharge outside the house with the lowest possible impedance to ground, rather than opening all windows. There is no True or False, but rather a fairly low or a very low risk of interference. And I'd apply the same, even if it was a Midas console.

You can find specifications about Neutrik etherFLEX cable here and here. We will start with 50 m drums, and the cable can be completely unspooled and used independently from the drum. Extension to 100 m is easy using Neutrik's NE8FF coupler, or using the KT DN9610 Extender box, when you need to use more than 100 m. And yes, we will keep it affordable.

Btw,
we are just now celebrating our 25th anniversary taking place in the Music Group factory in China, with invitees coming from all over the world. Our partners, distributors, press people, specialists and colleagues are gathering here for four unforgettable days. And I am personally very grateful and have to bring out a big THANK YOU TO ULI, for making this an extremely memorable experience. Stay tuned to our websites for some footage of the event that will be up, soon.

Best,
Jan
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Jan Duwe said:
Dear Dan,
don't get me wrong, I am not inclined persuading you of anything, and I do have a lot of respect for your inquisitiveness. I can only contribute our considerations since we are observing the phenomena. When a lightning strikes your house there may be some technical precautions you could take, even though you will never know precisely what will be happening. Personally, if I can, I would try to shunt out the discharge outside the house with the lowest possible impedance to ground, rather than opening all windows. There is no True or False, but rather a fairly low or a very low risk of interference. And I'd apply the same, even if it was a Midas console.
Click to expand...
Jan,

Is it possible to eliminate the loud 'pop' when this condition occurs (why does it?) and also possibly if the recovery time from a mute could be reduced?

Now, don't you drink too much rice wine in china :D~:-D~:grin:
 
Over 12 months with the X32

Having now had our X32 and S16 for well over 12 months, being used every week it's time to give a quick update on reliability. We had one sticky fader (it stuck two or three times) on a linked pair in the first few weeks. It's not done it since. When I posted here on the issue, Kiddiminster (UK service centre) phoned me up to discuss the problem within hours. They offered to look over the desk as we are only about 45 minutes drive from them. Now that's what I call pro-active support. I did not take them up on the offer as I thought we'd see if it persisted. The whole thing has worked flawlessly thereafter. No problems with static on cat6 STP or any of those issues I've seen referred to here.

I use stage flexible CAT5 utp for the P16s. It's nice and flexible, not like normal CAT5.... and yes we are using UTP not STP for this and it's not caused any discernible problems. We have to put the P16s and associated cable away after every service as the space is used for other things so it needs to uncoil and and lay flat quickly. I get the required lengths made up from an eBay supplier who posts next day.

Ours is a fixed installation in a church environment. We use the iPAD for setup and we've never had any wifi or connectivity issues. I am using a 5Ghz wifi rather than 2.4Ghz as I can see no other 5Ghz wifi to interfere. The wifi does have other traffic on it and is not dedicated to the X32 to iPad. However there is very little traffic, a heating controller, a couple of VoiP phones, a few PCs etc. I'm using a cheap Netgear WAP and I have tried three different WAPs all worked fine. The WAP has 4 LAN ports and I connect the X32 to one of these. The X32 and the iPAD have been set to have static IP addresses, the WAP also has a static IP address.

The X32 is not on a UPS but then we have pretty stable power in a small rural town in England. I've never experienced a desk 'lock-up'. The desk gets about three hours use on a Saturday and about 5 hours use on a Sunday plus odd things during the week.

We use about 20 input channels including up to 7 radio mics. We provide 4 monitor channels as well as P16s. There are also feeds to the 'hearing loop', foyer, recording system and other locations. We use the AES3 output to feed the digital recorder. This is edited later to create the podacast.

We have to mix for different band configurations each week as different musicians are scheduled. This ranges from woodwind like the bassoon (wish I could work out how best to mic the bassoon)/flute to brass, strings, electric guitars, bass, acoustic guitars, keys, vocalists, worship leader etc.

The bass guitar is routed direct to the desk and then routed back to the back line amp. This means we can control the overall volume of the bass, give the bass guitarist foldback and not have to use the rather weedy foh speakers for the bass.

I've done a number of full 32 track recordings to Reaper via the firewire port to a Macbook and this also worked without problem.

As a number of different people operate the desk each week, it took us some time to get to grips with saving our personal configurations and get a proper regime in place to make sure that one person did not accidentally overwrite somebody else's favourite set-up and yet any new additional 'perfect' EQ say was made available to all. Is there such a thing as the 'perfect' EQ? Or is the 'perfect' EQ in the ears of the listener?

So to conclude, for us, the X32 set-up has operated flawlessly and we are still eating how to best use the many features this desk offers. I'm looking forward to V2.x of the firmware but I'll not be upgrading until the iPad X32 Edit version is updated as well and all the bugs have been ironed out.

Mike
 
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Re: STP vs. UTP

Robert Lofgren said:
Is it possible to eliminate the loud 'pop' when this condition occurs (why does it?) and also possibly if the recovery time from a mute could be reduced?
Click to expand...

I would gladly give up the recording card slot, if a redundancy card was developed with a second cat5 connector to remove the "glitch" issue with single run cat5/ static etc...
 
Headamp settings different routing / safe recalling ?

Had my 1st x32-Edit gig, I was mixing the support band on the x32 of the 'headliner', only via network
connection, see my signature that changed from the motu to the x32 8O~8-O~:shock:

Now at home, I want to create a scene with these settings, except the routing,
I'm using S16's instead of the X32 I worked on...
I created a - the same - file with AES routing instead local routingfrom the x32 evening.
Somehow I'm not able to 'safe' the head amps, and load the AES routed file, ( I switched the headamp safe button on )
I can load but the gain isn't safe, it changes to the S16 setting...but it should stay like the
file I was saving from the x32 ( local routing ), not ?

Anyone ?

V1.15, X32-Edit 1.20

Thanks for help
and best regards

Klaus
 
Re: Headamp settings different routing / safe recalling ?

Klaus Roethlisberger said:
I can load but the gain isn't safe, it changes to the S16 setting...but it should stay like the
file I was saving from the x32 ( local routing ), not ?
Click to expand...

Since the headamps that are safe are not the same headamps you are loading from AES, the settings won't be the same. You need to go into the preamp page and manually do the settings to replicate the original ones, it shouldn't take too long.
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Robert Lofgren said:
Jan,

Is it possible to eliminate the loud 'pop' when this condition occurs (why does it?) and also possibly if the recovery time from a mute could be reduced?

Now, don't you drink too much rice wine in china :D~:-D~:grin:
Click to expand...

The loud pop is to tell the audience there is a technical problem beyond your control as opposed to it all just going quiet (because the soundguy pushed the wrong button) :thumbup: 8)~8-)~:cool:

Too much is the only way to drink :]~:-]~:brgin:
 
Re: Headamp settings different routing / safe recalling ?

Per Søvik said:
Since the headamps that are safe are not the same headamps you are loading from AES, the settings won't be the same. You need to go into the preamp page and manually do the settings to replicate the original ones, it shouldn't take too long.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reply Per
May I suggest a prefs setting to include, at least in X32-Edit, and why not in the whole X32 / S16 family...so preamp settings may be choosen i.e. one wants to use different stageboxes with the same micset...
I hope it will make it into v2, me thinks it's absolutely a must have for core rigs
I don't remember right now, if v2 will be able to handle it via library import / export, but hope so
Behringer ?

Best

Klaus
 
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Re: Reading X32 Config Files

Mike Gibson said:
Some time ago in this thread somebody created a great programme that would read X32 config files and print out a nice table of what was routed where etc.

Has this been developed at all and where is the link to the latest version?

Is there a web based version and a downloadable version?

.... and thanks in advance for all the hard work of whoever developed this.

Mike
Click to expand...

Hi Mike, that would be me .

Jump over to X32 User Net and look at 'scene manager'

thats the good news, the bad news is that I changed job 4 months ago and no longer have time or access the the development software to carry on with its development.

kev
 
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