X32 Discussion

Re: STP vs. UTP

Robert Lofgren said:
Jan,

Is it possible to eliminate the loud 'pop' when this condition occurs (why does it?) and also possibly if the recovery time from a mute could be reduced?

Now, don't you drink too much rice wine in china :D~:-D~:grin:
Click to expand...

Hi Robert,

Knowing you as a specifically tech-savvy and experienced user, I tend towards drawing the 'life-line' and speak with Thomas tomorrow, before going into details. :roll: Off the top of my head, I suppose there will be an avalanche of charges distrubing several processes at the same time in a pretty uncontrolled manner, whenever an ESD actually manages to get in and hit the circuitry. This might affect both sync pairs at the same time, so that the sync redundancy does not even help in this issue. I am afraid it will hardly be possible to react on an event like this by software measures at all, and it is probably better to try to prevent it happening in the first place, e.g. by using good chassis grounding and screened cables.

Best,
Jan
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Jan Duwe said:
Dear Dan,
don't get me wrong, I am not inclined persuading you of anything....
Click to expand...

Hi Jan,

Please DO try to persuade me, I am open to learning what is going on as opposed to what I THINK might be going on, and I appreciate your efforts to try to enlighten me and the community.

Also, congrats to you, Uli, and the entire Music Group on the 25th year celebrations! That is worth celebrating, and I hope the festivities are enjoyable and portend well for the next 25 years.

However, back to the problem at hand, which is why one set of consoles and stage boxes that use a variety of AES50-compliant protocol over UTP is immune to ESD, and another which uses essentially the same thing is not.

You mentioned earler

Jan Duwe said:


...From basic electric laws, you may consider that the impact of any given electric charge will be largely depending on the device's mass and its grounding impedance...
Click to expand...


and then say

Jan Duwe said:
...Off the top of my head, I suppose there will be an avalanche of charges distrubing several processes at the same time in a pretty uncontrolled manner, whenever an ESD actually manages to get in and hit the circuitry. This might affect both sync pairs at the same time, so that the sync redundancy does not even help in this issue. I am afraid it will hardly be possible to react on an event like this by software measures at all, and it is probably better to try to prevent it happening in the first place, e.g. by using good chassis grounding and screened cables...

(emphasis added)
Click to expand...

Despite your stated personal preference to use screened cable, it is quite clearly Official Midas Policy, based on the apparent fact that UTP is the only cable sold by Midas with the consoles, as well as the specific statements of two separate Midas Customer Service employees that UTP cable works fine with all Midas consoles and there is no need for screened cable.

Since the mass of the smallest Midas console is roughly the same as the X32, it seems safe to assume that the problem with the X32 requiring STP is not lack of mass, which then leaves grounding impedance and good chassis grounding as the culprit. You didn't mention proper shielding of internal components, so I assume that is not a factor.

Your comment about grounding impedance reminds me of the Pin 1 Problem that Neil Muncy made us aware of twenty-ish years ago, in which he pretty conclusively showed that grounding pin 1 of your xlr's to the console (or other analog device) through circuit board traces had enough of an impedance at high induced voltages to inhibit the path to ground and cause various hums and buzzes, whereas using a not-necessarily-huge wire or a VERY LARGE circuit board trace allows swift zeroing out of that induced voltage, and no hums or buzz.

That was a problem which was trivial to solve in the design and manufacturing stages, but much more complex when trying to solve it for a piece of existing gear.

Are we looking at something similar here?

And is the problem in the S16 stagebox and not the console itself? The console's analog XLR's seem to be fine with routing ESD to ground.

One of the things I learned from my Audio Over Ethernet Cable workshop (which John DiNicola attended) was that something like 98% of all RJ45 chassis connectors have fairly high quality transformers built in for each of the four pairs in the Ethernet cable, and that the volume in which those are made makes it both not expensive to do so and easy to get relatively high quality in the little transformers.

Does the stage box or console have some kind of deficiency in this area? I'm pretty sure that the console end has transformers, to the best of my limited ability to measure such a thing; how about on the S16 end?

I don't understand how shielded cable would solve lack of or insufficient transformers, so maybe the transformer thing is a red herring?

You can see, I hope, that I'm trying to understand what's going on, and would be fully happy if the X32 family could be made to more closely behave like the Midas in regard to UTP.

Thank you and other Music Group employees for continuing to try to enlighten us.

Best wishes,
Dan
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Hi Dan,

Let me try to recap the topic and some of my statements, which I still feel confident about. Unfortunately, the topic cannot be explained (like you suspect) with any sort of oversight or deficiency of X32/S16, as far as I understand it (and as it's been confirmed to me by the lead engineers at MKT and Behringer).

1. AES50 connections on MKT and Behringer products
> hardware is identical
> software basically the same except for sample rates and control layer data

2. ESD is not RFI
> input circuitry and transformers are working efficiently against RFI
> preventing dielectric breakdown (caused by strong electric fields) from deluging the pcb with free electron-hole pairs is not trivial at all
> dielectric or avalanche breakdowns in insulator or semi-conductor material can establish unpredictable currents within nano seconds

3. Midas has started selling UTP cable long before compact (light-weight) consoles like the PRO1 became available
> even today, the vast majority of Midas mixing environments are much more solidly installed and massive
> X32 and S16 chassis and installations are often comparatively lightweight

4. ESD can affect a large number of electronic devices when directly exposed to strong electric fields
> the electro-shocker test has revealed that X32 and S16 may be affected, when UTP connections are used
> interference can be prevented by using STP cable with grounded connector shield
(I am not aware that the exact same test has been done using, say a PRO1 and DL153, or PRO2C and DL251??)
> However, there are very rare reported incidents, where ESD had hit a Midas PRO setup and also caused a sync loss
> Apparently, it is not an issue specific to X32, but there are ESD issues with other digital boards as well
> We have started a research project for gaining a better understanding of the actual phenomena of ESD on AES50 connections. When there is anything substantial to be reported, we will inform you immediately.

Wrapping up we may say, the ESD topic is a very comprehensive one, especially considering the increased density of components. An ESD-Association (by IEC and ANSI) had been founded developing numerous standards including/related to the EN standards to which our products comply. 99% of the topics actually deal with preventing ESD happening at all !! It is definitely no topic that can be resolved by changing individual components here or there.

Hope that helps.

Best,
Jan
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

I've finally come up with a theory why my setup works flawlessly even when I use cheap cable. Since I run both stage and FOH off the same UPS, my equipment is connected with good grounding apart from the AES50 cabling. What I realized the other day was that it is connected through a shorter path by this power cable ground, so a discharge pulse will arrive roughly 20nS (5 meter difference) earlier through the power cable than through the AES50, thus essentially blocking a lot of the pulse that goes through the AES50 cable. One would normally expect that the current distribution would be according to the impedance ratio between the two, but the current through the AES50 cable will also be defined from a lower potential. Actually, since the distance is shorter, it makes less sense to have continuity in the shield because the risk of building up enough potential to have a "spark" anywhere on the AES50 line will be much reduced.
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Per Søvik said:
I've finally come up with a theory why my setup works flawlessly even when I use cheap cable. Since I run both stage and FOH off the same UPS, my equipment is connected with good grounding apart from the AES50 cabling. What I realized the other day was that it is connected through a shorter path by this power cable ground, so a discharge pulse will arrive roughly 20nS (5 meter difference) earlier through the power cable than through the AES50, thus essentially blocking a lot of the pulse that goes through the AES50 cable. One would normally expect that the current distribution would be according to the impedance ratio between the two, but the current through the AES50 cable will also be defined from a lower potential. Actually, since the distance is shorter, it makes less sense to have continuity in the shield because the risk of building up enough potential to have a "spark" anywhere on the AES50 line will be much reduced.
Click to expand...

And I have a story that appears to be opposite your experiences...

Last month we had a group come through that had a pair of S16 on stage, X32 out front. They had a single 175ft run of Rapco DuraCat 6e taped to 150ft run of 16ga extension cords. While helping the BE run his "snake" I asked him if they ever had ESD-induced dropouts. No, he said. Never? Nope.

The stage set included some nice, big rugs and a centrally located 'bitch mic' for the players to communicate with the ME.

Part way into the set there is a brief interruption in audio. BE asks "what the hell was that, power spike?" Uh... "remember when I asked you about ESD?" A few minutes later it happens again, but this time we notice the bass player standing at the bitch mic. After the show, Mr. Bass mentions to the ME that there was a lot of static on stage that night. BE confirms that he found 2 sync errors of AES50 in a console log. He's ordered STP...

So when I helped pull the snake out, I notice that the extension cord is plugged into the same quad box that the S16s are powered from. I can't verify that all the grounding in the quad box is 100% (not mine, didn't build it, etc). Presuming that it is, common & proximate grounding of the connected devices didn't seem to alleviate the problem.

FWIW, I had my S16/X32 hooked up in the shop with 150' of UTP, no Ethercons, had personal walking around static build up. No drop outs in casual use, setting up templates and listening to the EQ and EFX. Then I saw the spark device in the videos; my experiences were pretty much as documented on Youtube, sometimes even a single ESD hit would cause loss of sync, sometimes it took 3 or 4, but eventually it always happened. My setup was powered from a single quad box with known-good grounding. STP with ground-bonded Ethercon shells seems to prevent the issue.

Per, I'm glad your setup works and I'd really like to have the same results, but so far it hasn't worked out that way.
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Jan Duwe said:
...Unfortunately, the topic cannot be explained (like you suspect) with any sort of oversight or deficiency of X32/S16, as far as I understand it (and as it's been confirmed to me by the lead engineers at MKT and Behringer).

1. AES50 connections on MKT and Behringer products
> hardware is identical
> software basically the same except for sample rates and control layer data

SNIP

4. ESD can affect a large number of electronic devices when directly exposed to strong electric fields
> the electro-shocker test has revealed that X32 and S16 may be affected, when UTP connections are used
> interference can be prevented by using STP cable with grounded connector shield
(I am not aware that the exact same test has been done using, say a PRO1 and DL153, or PRO2C and DL251??)
> However, there are very rare reported incidents, where ESD had hit a Midas PRO setup and also caused a sync loss
> Apparently, it is not an issue specific to X32, but there are ESD issues with other digital boards as well
> We have started a research project for gaining a better understanding of the actual phenomena of ESD on AES50 connections. When there is anything substantial to be reported, we will inform you immediately.

Wrapping up we may say, the ESD topic is a very comprehensive one, especially considering the increased density of components. An ESD-Association (by IEC and ANSI) had been founded developing numerous standards including/related to the EN standards to which our products comply. 99% of the topics actually deal with preventing ESD happening at all !! It is definitely no topic that can be resolved by changing individual components here or there.

Hope that helps.

Best,
Jan
Click to expand...

Thanks, Jan, this helps a lot. It would be interesting to have someone with smaller Midas consoles check it out. Sometime in the future I'll get my friend with the Pro 3 to do the spark test with UTP, but the next few weeks are too intense for both of us.

I'll look forward to seeing your research project's results, and if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.

Thanks,
Dan
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Tim McCulloch said:
And I have a story that appears to be opposite your experiences...

SNIP

Per, I'm glad your setup works and I'd really like to have the same results, but so far it hasn't worked out that way.
Click to expand...

Same here, and more easily demonstrated: When doing all these spark tests in my shop, the S16's and console are plugged into the same UPS and sitting a couple feet from each other. Console connected directly through its power cord to the UPS. UTP is often only a few feet long, although the result is the same regardless of its length.

I'm glad Per's setup works for him, but do not ascribe its success to the conditions he listed.

One of my mottos is that luck beats talent any day. Per is clearly a lucky fellow.
 
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Re: STP vs. UTP

Jan Duwe said:
You can find specifications about Neutrik etherFLEX cable here and here. We will start with 50 m drums, and the cable can be completely unspooled and used independently from the drum. Extension to 100 m is easy using Neutrik's NE8FF coupler, or using the KT DN9610 Extender box, when you need to use more than 100 m. And yes, we will keep it affordable.
Click to expand...

Regarding this cable, while not enjoying raining on the parade:

One of the things that I think we learned from our Audio Over Ethernet Cable workshop was that every cable we examined save one could be made to disrupt the data flow (whether by losing sync or what, I don't know, but we assumed we were losing sync) by a combination of squeezing and pulling the cable, or by a group of people stomping on it randomly. The one that wasn't disrupted had a fairly substantial HH patterned longitudinal spacer inside the cable, keeping the four pairs apart and in the same physical relationship to each other regardless of external forces.

My hypothesis was and is that the disruption is caused by the capacitance/inductance/whatever between the pairs changing as the relationship between them is physically deformed and changing over time. The disruption disappears when movement stops.

So seeing the cross section of the upcoming cable that does not show any spacers/filler whatsoever makes me anxious about its performance under physical duress. It will be interesting to hear the reports of early adopters.
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Dan Mortensen said:
Same here, and more easily demonstrated: When doing all these spark tests in my shop, the S16's and console are plugged into the same UPS and sitting a couple feet from each other. Console connected directly through its power cord to the UPS. UTP is often only a few feet long, although the result is the same regardless of its length.

I'm glad Per's setup works for him, but do not ascribe its success to the conditions he listed.

One of my mottos is that luck beats talent any day. Per is clearly a lucky fellow.
Click to expand...

So much for that theory then. My problem from a statistical viewpoint is of course that I use good cable with Ethercons when it counts 8)~8-)~:cool:
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Tim McCulloch said:
And I have a story that appears to be opposite your experiences...

Last month we had a group come through that had a pair of S16 on stage, X32 out front....

... After the show, Mr. Bass mentions to the ME that there was a lot of static on stage that night. BE confirms that he found 2 sync errors of AES50 in a console log....
Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

Could you please go into some detail about this console log? I'm not aware of such a thing on the X32 but would like to be.

Thanks,
Dan
 
Re: STP vs. UTP

Dan Mortensen said:
Hi Jan,

Please DO try to persuade me, I am open to learning what is going on as opposed to what I THINK might be going on, and I appreciate your efforts to try to enlighten me and the community.

Also, congrats to you, Uli, and the entire Music Group on the 25th year celebrations! That is worth celebrating, and I hope the festivities are enjoyable and portend well for the next 25 years.

However, back to the problem at hand, which is why one set of consoles and stage boxes that use a variety of AES50-compliant protocol over UTP is immune to ESD, and another which uses essentially the same thing is not.

You mentioned earler



and then say



Despite your stated personal preference to use screened cable, it is quite clearly Official Midas Policy, based on the apparent fact that UTP is the only cable sold by Midas with the consoles, as well as the specific statements of two separate Midas Customer Service employees that UTP cable works fine with all Midas consoles and there is no need for screened cable.

Since the mass of the smallest Midas console is roughly the same as the X32, it seems safe to assume that the problem with the X32 requiring STP is not lack of mass, which then leaves grounding impedance and good chassis grounding as the culprit. You didn't mention proper shielding of internal components, so I assume that is not a factor.

Your comment about grounding impedance reminds me of the Pin 1 Problem that Neil Muncy made us aware of twenty-ish years ago, in which he pretty conclusively showed that grounding pin 1 of your xlr's to the console (or other analog device) through circuit board traces had enough of an impedance at high induced voltages to inhibit the path to ground and cause various hums and buzzes, whereas using a not-necessarily-huge wire or a VERY LARGE circuit board trace allows swift zeroing out of that induced voltage, and no hums or buzz.

That was a problem which was trivial to solve in the design and manufacturing stages, but much more complex when trying to solve it for a piece of existing gear.

Are we looking at something similar here?

And is the problem in the S16 stagebox and not the console itself? The console's analog XLR's seem to be fine with routing ESD to ground.

One of the things I learned from my Audio Over Ethernet Cable workshop (which John DiNicola attended) was that something like 98% of all RJ45 chassis connectors have fairly high quality transformers built in for each of the four pairs in the Ethernet cable, and that the volume in which those are made makes it both not expensive to do so and easy to get relatively high quality in the little transformers.

Does the stage box or console have some kind of deficiency in this area? I'm pretty sure that the console end has transformers, to the best of my limited ability to measure such a thing; how about on the S16 end?

I don't understand how shielded cable would solve lack of or insufficient transformers, so maybe the transformer thing is a red herring?

You can see, I hope, that I'm trying to understand what's going on, and would be fully happy if the X32 family could be made to more closely behave like the Midas in regard to UTP.

Thank you and other Music Group employees for continuing to try to enlighten us.

Best wishes,
Dan
Click to expand...

Just my 2 cents here but I use cat6 STP cable with my X32, X32 Rack, and S16's without issue. Must use it with Ethercon's however. I never had an ESD issue yet. Knock on Midas. I use Cat5E UTP in the studio. Longest run is 100'. Again no issues.

The problem as I see it is that with UTP you have ground isolation and when you use STP you have a ground between them.
Without the Ethercon you can have the shield break from slight cable deflections and that will cause a drop out as you shift the signal reference to ground.
 
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Re: STP vs. UTP

Glenn Adams said:
The problem as I see it is that with UTP you have ground isolation and when you use STP you have a ground between them.
Click to expand...

This will help especially for RFI but not specially for ESD. (Allthough it will help also)

BUT the overall screen will avoid that large static can be build up on the cable, as the shield in close proximiation to the plastic shield will discharge this charge to whatever ground it's connected to. I allready asked a couple of times if UTP cable exists with some sort of plastic shield (or whatever) that won't build up charge. I think that could solve a lot for ESD.
 
Presets gone... ? vers.1.15

I'm doing some homework on the presets and upon saving presets, I see all previous presets are GONE

I think I asked here before where the presets are stored...

I would like to get them back...

Where do I search ?

Mac OS 10.6.8, X32-Edit 1.2

Thanks for help

and best regards

Klaus
 
Re: Presets gone... ? vers.1.15

Klaus Roethlisberger said:
I'm doing some homework on the presets and upon saving presets, I see all previous presets are GONE

I think I asked here before where the presets are stored...

I would like to get them back...

Where do I search ?

Mac OS 10.6.8, X32-Edit 1.2

Thanks for help

and best regards

Klaus
Click to expand...

C:\\users\username\appdata\roaming\xcontrol in windows, probably reasonably similar in OS
 
Re: Presets gone... ? vers.1.15

Klaus Roethlisberger said:
I am not able to imagine...
Mac users ?
Thanks

Klaus
Click to expand...

Found it...
xlib with the previous presets was invisible, and - shame on me - on another Mac... the 'testmac'

Yesterday I set up the real X32 remote Mac, and couldn't see the presets in X32-Edit / Libraries...
Copying will hopefully bring them onto this Mac

Thanks again Per

and best regards

Klaus
 
Re: X32 Discussion

How many network attached devices can a single X32 have at any one time? Can my laptop have Xcontrol and my Android tablet be connected at the same time, making adjustments? How about a third device, too?

Sent from my SPH-L900
 
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