X32 Discussion

[Chris Wadden]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

I've been reading up and watching videos about the Dugan automixing technology. Very cool indeed. Also seems extremely expensive for any of the hardware controllers or cards. Has anyone actually used the Waves Dugan Native plugin with an X32?

Also am I correct in thinking that it will not be useful in a rock band type context? Where you would want to maintain vastly different gain levels for drums VS. vocals etc.? In other words, in what situations would using a Dugan processor be a really bad idea.

 

[Daniel McAllister]

Re: V2.01 Beta

Has everyone noticed that in V2.01 Beta the FX Returns now have full EQ options? No need to re-route them to an input channel anymore.

Couldn't see any mention of it in the release notes!

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

I've been reading up and watching videos about the Dugan automixing technology. Very cool indeed. Also seems extremely expensive for any of the hardware controllers or cards. Has anyone actually used the Waves Dugan Native plugin with an X32?

Also am I correct in thinking that it will not be useful in a rock band type context? Where you would want to maintain vastly different gain levels for drums VS. vocals etc.? In other words, in what situations would using a Dugan processor be a really bad idea.

The proper way to think about the "Dugan" algorithm is as a microphone gain sharing method, that simply shares the effective gain of one microphone input at full gain, between as many microphones happen to be receiving active input at any instant. This gain sharing occurs dynamically as the relative input levels change. This is extremely useful for managing gain before feedback during panel discussions or when multiple people, speaking into multiple microphones, need to be managed seamlessly.

Mixing music is a completely different animal, and while I predict that there could be some other useful control algorithms developed, Dugan IMO is mainly a speech for mutliple talking heads (not the band "talking heads") application.

FWIW the basic automatic mixing technology could be integrated into a digital mixer quite inexpensively. All the hardware is already there so it's just a slightly different software layer on top of the basic function.

The Dugan hardware product is relatively expensive (I designed an 8 channel analog Automatic Mixer that Peavey sold for around $500). I can not comment on the Waves plug-in from first hand experience but this does not appear to be a budget solution either, unless in comparison to the Dugan hardware.

The Dugan products have many fans among professional users, because they work well in their intended applications, and apparently the professional budgets can tolerate the price point.

JR

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

I've been reading up and watching videos about the Dugan automixing technology. Very cool indeed. Also seems extremely expensive for any of the hardware controllers or cards. Has anyone actually used the Waves Dugan Native plugin with an X32?

Also am I correct in thinking that it will not be useful in a rock band type context? Where you would want to maintain vastly different gain levels for drums VS. vocals etc.? In other words, in what situations would using a Dugan processor be a really bad idea.

I "kind of" used the Waves Dugan plug-in last night (in demo mode) on a musical with sixteen lavaliere mics. It worked very well, although it had my laptop working very hard. I say "kind of", because I didn't actually use the Dugan's output for the show, I was just monitoring how it was dealing with the mics.

The reason for this is that there is a current limitation with the X32 firmware, and the insert points cannot be made post-fader. This means that any unused mics in a scene must be bypassed at the Dugan, or they will influence the Dugan algorithm. So if an actor was off-stage and coughed loudly his mic would duck out the active mics!

The Dugan is not suitable for music as its whole purpose is to give preference to one mic. So if a musician in a jazz band was playing a loud solo, his mic would push all the other mics down. Not good.

When you think that the Waves Dugan plug-in can provide up to sixty-four channels, I think $500 is very reasonable. It would cost me $240 per day to rent two Dugan E1's to get sixteen channels ($500 for two D2's, there's your plug-in paid for!), and analog patching them into the X32 in its current state would be a pain, or even impossible, as it would take up a bunch of ins and outs.

My only complaint is that Waves charge $500 for the Multirack which you need to use any plug-ins. I think this is way too much. Attempts to use Live Professor ($60) as the host have so far not been successful.

I hope this info is useful to you.

Mick Berg.

 

[Chris Wadden]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

The reason for this is that there is a current limitation with the X32 firmware, and the insert points cannot be made post-fader. This means that any unused mics in a scene must be bypassed at the Dugan, or they will influence the Dugan algorithm. So if an actor was off-stage and coughed loudly his mic would duck out the active mics!

Thanks for the information! You can use the hardware units with analog mixers like say, an Allen and Heath GL2400 or Yamaha MG line mixers because their inserts are wired post-fader. Is that correct? Are most analog mixers inserts post-fader?

If so I'm surprised that's a feature that was overlooked when designing the X32 firmware options.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 wiki

Dear All,

We are excited to announce that we have released the public version of the Official X32 Wiki.

SNIP

The URL for the X32 Wiki is: X32 Digital Mixer Wiki

Hi Joe,

This post and the Wiki have not gotten enough comments.

My big festival is now finished, and I'm finally looking through the Wiki more than just a glance. I have to say how much I appreciate this expansion of the manual, and its ability to be easily modified to fit changing firmware and expanding knowledge. What I've read so far is mostly well-done and informative. I've learned several things that I was either ignorant of or unsure about exactly.

A couple things I've noticed so far:

1) The x.xx number should be in the title of each page. My first comment below will be about "How Do I Share Signals Over An AES50 SuperMac Network?", and I have no idea that I'm in section 5.11 when looking at the page.

2) In section 5.11, the part about setting the FOH console sync to AES50A is left out. That is an important detail.

3) Also in that section, there is some needless editorializing about how expensive it is to do house/monitor splits in the analog world, when the split can actually be as simple as a y-cord. Yes, there are disadvantages to a y-cord, but there are also disadvantages to the Behringer implementation that exists as described in 5.11. I'm looking forward to some of those disadvantages disappearing in firmware 2.0.

4) I could be mistaken about this, but in 4.1 Effects Descriptions, is the order the effects are described the same order in which they scroll through on the console? I don't have a console in front of me, but feel like maybe it's different; if that's correct, having them in the same order would make it easier to scroll through from one to the next and follow along with the Wiki. Disregard if the orders are the same.

5) In that same section 4.1, I'd like a little more description of the Graphic EQ's and if they are modeled after some existing piece of gear, as well as views of their skirt width and peak sharpness. I liked how the other effect descriptions relate to existing gear.

6) In 5.12, it seems that it should be revised to reflect that any shielded CAT cable 5e and above will work just fine. Yes?

7) 5.13, Utilities, seems to be describing how to name and color channels in firmware 1.13 rather than 1.15. Expanding that idea, maybe there needs to be a (1.13) or whatever appended to each item thoughout the Wiki to differentiate features from one firmware revision to another?

That's enough comments for now.

This Wiki is really well-done despite my nit-picking, and I look forward to its expansion and further usability.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Rob Spence]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

Thanks for the information! You can use the hardware units with analog mixers like say, an Allen and Heath GL2400 or Yamaha MG line mixers because their inserts are wired post-fader. Is that correct? Are most analog mixers inserts post-fader?

If so I'm surprised that's a feature that was overlooked when designing the X32 firmware options.

It doesn't matter if most (or not) mixers have post fader inserts. What matters is if the one you use does. Look at the signal flow diagram in the manual. All analog mixer manuals I have seen have them.

Actually, finding and studying the diagram should be near the top of the list of things to do when using a new (to the user) mixer.


Sent from my iPad HD

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 wiki

This Wiki is really well-done despite my nit-picking, and I look forward to its expansion and further usability.

Dan, comments and corrections to wiki pages are better put in the discussion tab of the page, unless you want to edit yourself of course.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 wiki

Dan, comments and corrections to wiki pages are better put in the discussion tab of the page, unless you want to edit yourself of course.

Hi Per,

I didn't know that when I posted, and now I don't think it's possible. "Terms of Service", which you have to agree to in order to register, doesn't exist yet. I don't think I'm already an editor, and there was a database error when I tried to register. I don't see a "comments" tab.

Sorry to be ignorant.

How do you know these things?

Dan

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32 wiki

Hi Per,



How do you know these things?

Dan

He has a Digital Crystal Ball®. Probably has the hi-gain outdoor antenna, too.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 wiki

Hi Per,

I didn't know that when I posted, and now I don't think it's possible. "Terms of Service", which you have to agree to in order to register, doesn't exist yet. I don't think I'm already an editor, and there was a database error when I tried to register. I don't see a "comments" tab.

I didn't check what was available at the time I posted, and I'm not much of a wiki expert (in fact I don't even know how to use it properly), but I think most wikis allow comments even by unregistered users in the "Discussion" tab.
I'm not surprised if it doesn't work as intended, whoever is doing the webstuff for Behringer hasn't got a brilliant track record of late.

Edit: I checked the user list, and you're not on it.

Sorry to be ignorant.

Didn't mean to pull you up, sorry if it came across that way :blush:

How do you know these things?

I am the eyes of Nostradamus, all your ways are known to me. 8)~~

That, and guessing ~;-)~:wink:

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

Thanks for the information! You can use the hardware units with analog mixers like say, an Allen and Heath GL2400 or Yamaha MG line mixers because their inserts are wired post-fader. Is that correct? Are most analog mixers inserts post-fader?

If so I'm surprised that's a feature that was overlooked when designing the X32 firmware options.

I'm pretty sure that there is no post-fader insert on the A&H GL or Yamaha MG series, and I think the same goes for the A&H ML-series and Yamaha PM series, although you can use inserts on groups and matrixes, and if you have enough of them, you can do it that way.
There might be analog stuff out there that actually have post-fader inserts, but I can't think of any mixer I've come across that has it without some internal reworking.
I assume that most cases where post fader equipment is inserted, one uses the direct out in post-fader mode if that's available, and sum the returns somewhere else.

It doesn't matter if most (or not) mixers have post fader inserts. What matters is if the one you use does. Look at the signal flow diagram in the manual. All analog mixer manuals I have seen have them.

I could be wrong of course.

Edit:
When you say "All analog mixer manuals I have seen have them.", you are referring to flow diagrams, not post fader inserts?

 

[Jordan Wolf]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

I assume that most cases where post fader equipment is inserted, one uses the direct out in post-fader mode if that's available, and sum the returns somewhere else.

This is exactly what I do when using Shure SCM810s...I very frequently use this method, and it works very well. I changed our GL2400 to post-fader DOs (we don't do any multi-tracks) and I use the EQ on the return channel to deal with feedback, leaving the input channel EQ for individual voice tone shaping.

As I mentioned in another post, pick-point flexibility is a huge factor for me...I need to be able to tailor each channel and output to my event.

 

[Paul Ramsingh]

Driverack through S16

Hey guys, I need some advice on how to hook up a Driverack PA+ using the S16. I have a X32 Compact and plan to buy 1 S16 snake. I'd like to have the DRPA+ stay with the mixer (FOH) and send the Main LR to the speakers which would be on-stage near to the S16. Since I'm sending L&R from the DRPA+ directly to the speakers, I'm not seeing a way to use the S16. How could I do this other than having the DRPA+ on stage with the S16? Thanks!

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 wiki

Didn't mean to pull you up, sorry if it came across that way

Didn't come across that way at all. I am conscious of not knowing a lot, and it seems like what I do know was learned with difficulty, usually. But I keep asking questions until I figure it out, and believe that there are a lot of people who also don't know but are too shy to ask. That has been my repetitive experience, at least.

Thanks for explaining.

Edit: Oh, and I've been meaning to write the following: I tried going into your Wiki and adding posts from here to it. I found a post by Robert Lofgren that described how the iPad metering consistently reads differently than the console metering.

I spent over an hour trying to parse out how many sections of the Wiki 5.1.0 and 1.2.7 and 9.3.14 (made up numbers) it applied to, and how to quote each part appropriately. It never made sense and made clear that doing so was a huge and frustrating project, so I never even got past square 1.

Which was also why I was so glad to see that Behringer had started and gotten some ways into it, and done a good job, by and large.

So I think that what they are doing is the only way for this to come about, and for it to be done well.

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: Driverack through S16

Hey guys, I need some advice on how to hook up a Driverack PA+ using the S16. I have a X32 Compact and plan to buy 1 S16 snake. I'd like to have the DRPA+ stay with the mixer (FOH) and send the Main LR to the speakers which would be on-stage near to the S16. Since I'm sending L&R from the DRPA+ directly to the speakers, I'm not seeing a way to use the S16. How could I do this other than having the DRPA+ on stage with the S16? Thanks!

If you have not purchased the DriverackPA yet, buy the new Driverack PA2 model. It will sound better than the old model and have remote control via iPad. You can leave it on stage in the rack with the S16 and control it from FOH.

Curious. Why would you need it at FOH anyway? Once your crossover and time alignment is done, will you be adjusting that during a show? You can use the X32 graphics at FOH for tweaks during the show. Just wondering.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 wiki

Didn't come across that way at all. I am conscious of not knowing a lot, and it seems like what I do know was learned with difficulty, usually. But I keep asking questions until I figure it out, and believe that there are a lot of people who also don't know but are too shy to ask. That has been my repetitive experience, at least.

Thanks for explaining.

Edit: Oh, and I've been meaning to write the following: I tried going into your Wiki and adding posts from here to it. I found a post by Robert Lofgren that described how the iPad metering consistently reads differently than the console metering.

I spent over an hour trying to parse out how many sections of the Wiki 5.1.0 and 1.2.7 and 9.3.14 (made up numbers) it applied to, and how to quote each part appropriately. It never made sense and made clear that doing so was a huge and frustrating project, so I never even got past square 1.

Not entirely sure what you are referring to, as I can't find any contribution with your name on it, in fact I can't even find your user (there are thousands by now).
However, I blocked nearly everything for non-approved users, and I can't remember if you have been approved, can't see you on the list. This means that you would have had very little functionality. My wiki has been practically dormant due to lack of interest since it was started, and I haven't made any effort to learn how it works, so functionality have stayed at the basic installation level.
However, the general rule is that a new addition, let's say "iPad metering" is added as a new entry, and references are put in the relevant places if the new entry isn't automatically linked to (require a plugin afaik) by entering [[iPad metering]] where appropriate. The idea of a community contributed wiki sort of implies that each contributor doesn't necessarily find all relevant places in the wiki where the new contribution might apply.

Which was also why I was so glad to see that Behringer had started and gotten some ways into it, and done a good job, by and large.

So I think that what they are doing is the only way for this to come about, and for it to be done well.

Agreed, volunteer contribution is one thing, but to drive such a project forward requires too much effort for the occasional contributor. Unless of course you find someone who is prepared to take it on as a full time hobby, which I never was.

I might keep the x32user.net wiki up as a special interest wiki for the "underground" stuff.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Driverack through S16

Hey guys, I need some advice on how to hook up a Driverack PA+ using the S16. I have a X32 Compact and plan to buy 1 S16 snake. I'd like to have the DRPA+ stay with the mixer (FOH) and send the Main LR to the speakers which would be on-stage near to the S16. Since I'm sending L&R from the DRPA+ directly to the speakers, I'm not seeing a way to use the S16. How could I do this other than having the DRPA+ on stage with the S16? Thanks!

Depends what you are using it for. If you are only using it to crossover between tops and subs, I would omit it altogether and have better sound, doing the subs/mains crossover in the X32.
Other than that, run analog cables from the DRPA+ to the speakers/amps, it's the only sensible way.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 wiki

Not entirely sure what you are referring to, as I can't find any contribution with your name on it...

Yes, I never got to the point of posting or trying to post anything, I was editing off-line and not happy with what I was doing. I thought you sent me something to log in, but since I never used it, no big deal.

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: Using Waves Dugan with X-32

Is it possible to set the Direct Out of a channel to Post-Fader, and then route it to Card Out, so that it goes to the Waves Dugan plug-in Post-Fader? I'm not seeing how. That is surely what is needed, in order to use the Dugan in post-fader mode. How you get the Dugan signal back into the board is irrelevant if you can't do that.

Mick Berg.