X32 Discussion

re: X32 Discussion

I'm sure Behringer could put better preamps on their Xenyx series of consoles, under the premise that more studios would use them for recording. They might actually sell a few more, too. But trying to be something they're not just doesn't make any sense. There are other products for these other purposes.

Exactly! I think it's good for everyone to remember that even if the X32 is wildly successful, it's never going to be in the same volume as something mass market like a phone, table or computer, or even a popular car model. Compared to mass consumer products, audio gear is a lower volume specialty market - and every change or feature/variation adds cost.

Excellent points...

Now if they can add it through software - great. But can we let them shake out the base functionality before we ask them to go feature crazy :) As others have pointed out you get into regression issues and other stuff when adding and changing software. I think it's OK to ask for new functionality, but even if it's "only" software it's not free...
 
re: X32 Discussion

Yes you're absolutely right, at the price of a complete GLD system, you can actually even grab 3 X32s, and keep the other 2 in the closet as backups. :razz:

Amazing, isn't it?

About the Android thing, i'm aware of the Android problem, with its hundreds of OS versions. And to be honest, i forgot, with the P16 System, nobody really need an Iphone or Android monitor app anymore. In live situation, I'd rather tweak on real knobs than slide around on a screen.

Yup, but it still is very cool to be able to take out this portable battery powered device and from pretty much anywhere in the room tweak things. Hopefully they will follow up with an Android app soon. I just looked again at XiControl and it's iPad only - no phone. And until recently there hasn't been much activity on the Android tablet front - now that things are heating up (finally!) hopefully that will influence and speed things along too. If they can make the UI work on a Google Nexus 7 - at $200 that's pretty compelling for a portable/remote control surface!
 
re: X32 Discussion

Hi Guys,
just want to let you know, that I had a great day by meeting two forums member from the Netherlands in person.
"Douwe Jan Pol" and "Sietse" were paying me a visit!
We met at my warehouse, where I set my X32 rig up and we played a bit with the whole system.



Now that I live quite near the German Behringer Headquarter, I ask, if we could come in for a visit. Boy, we had a blast. The whole Behringer crew showed up, they showed us the facility and could talk with all of them. We were told some of latest news on the X32 topic, and what the guys are acutally working on and we could ask any question, that we wanted. I leave that up to Douwe Jan Pol and Sietse, to tell what we have heard. They asked the smarter questions than me. We were there for more than an hour (maybe two) and it was really nice atmosphere.
In fact we could even see the first X32 ever build (the Alpha desk):



At the end of our visit, we took this picture:



from left to right:
Jan, Martin and Thomas from Behringer - Sietse, me and Douwe Jan Pol from the soundforums.net

I would like anyone, who participated on this day.
Thank you guys!

Christian

PS: I'm holding a frame in my hands, that Douwe Jan gave me on the behalf of soundforums.net. There were personal dedications and greetings from some of you to me. See, I once said, that is one of the nicest community in pro audio around. Guess I was wrong. Obviously - IT IS THE NICEST community! Thank you all guys - I highly appreciate that...absolutly awesome!!
 
re: X32 Discussion

In fact we could even see the first X32 ever build (the Alpha desk):

That is fascinating. Yes, the current model looks quite different - but it's mostly refinements. The core layout is there. Sounds like a really good time - I'm jealous!

EDIT: And let me pile on with the thanks - your posts have been VERY helpful and entertaining while waiting for these things to ship. I've learned quite a bit and I probably wouldn't be this interested had it not been for many of them. Thanks again!
 
Windows 8 surface

So many have discussed about android and how fractured the ecosystem is for the OS...well, how about windows 8 surface? Will the xcontrol run natively on the surface pad? I would get me an rt version or even the full OS version if it runs right out of the box.
 
re: X32 Discussion

That is fascinating. Yes, the current model looks quite different - but it's mostly refinements. The core layout is there. Sounds like a really good time - I'm jealous!

EDIT: And let me pile on with the thanks - your posts have been VERY helpful and entertaining while waiting for these things to ship. I've learned quite a bit and I probably wouldn't be this interested had it not been for many of them. Thanks again!

It was a very funny and informative day!
Concernig the Adroid App...wait till our dutch mates come home..I think, they can contribute something to this specific topic.
Christian
 
Re: Windows 8 surface

Will the xcontrol run natively on the surface pad? I would get me an rt version or even the full OS version if it runs right out of the box.

I don't know why it wouldn't on the full (Non-RT) one. I believe Christian is running it now on an old Lenovo touch screen windows tablet (was either earlier in this thread or the other board that is escaping me at the moment). A used iPad or Nexus 7 will still be cheaper, probably lighter and have better battery life. It all boils down to exactly what you want to do - a good point, with the Surface (or similar tablets) you get the full version of XControl...
 
re: X32 Discussion

Nice pics Christian!

I have one question to those who already have the P16 system.

Can you confirm that you can only have one set of 16 channels (consisting of whatever you routed them in) for all the P16M units connected? Or can you have 2 sets of 16 channels via the 2 AES ports?

Or is the P16 only available via the Ultranet port?
 
re: X32 Discussion

Your reasoning assumes that their sales stay the same. Let's say profit on one console in $100. Assume it costs $50k to incorporate 96kHz operation (or some other feature). Then break-even point is selling 500 more consoles than they could otherwise; if additional sales are less than 500, then they lost money, and if they're more than 500, then the made money. This is basic economics.

I understand what you're saying. But, currently, they can't meet demand with the existing feature set.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Nice pics Christian!

I have one question to those who already have the P16 system.

Can you confirm that you can only have one set of 16 channels (consisting of whatever you routed them in) for all the P16M units connected? Or can you have 2 sets of 16 channels via the 2 AES ports?

Or is the P16 only available via the Ultranet port?


You got "only" 16 channel on the Ultranet (P16 system). But don't forget..these can be submixes too! Say you have eleven drum channels, you can submix them to a group, a mixbus, or a matrice and send them as a stereo pair to your P-16M and you have still 14 channel left for the P16. The P-16 runs only on the Ultranet port (there is one on the con console AND on every S-16).
Christian
 
Re: Windows 8 surface

I don't know why it wouldn't on the full (Non-RT) one. I believe Christian is running it now on an old Lenovo touch screen windows tablet (was either earlier in this thread or the other board that is escaping me at the moment). A used iPad or Nexus 7 will still be cheaper, probably lighter and have better battery life. It all boils down to exactly what you want to do - a good point, with the Surface (or similar tablets) you get the full version of XControl...

True, I use a very old IBM X41 from the stoneage...works nice. The main difference between the Xcontrol and the iPad app will be, that you will be able to do offline editing and save & recall offline made mixing scenes.
Christian
 
re: X32 Discussion

The simple fact is that Behringer is in business because they make cheap stuff that works. That's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

With the X32 (and related equipment), they're also stepping into (what I call), "entry-level professional." No pun intended to the marketing department, but that changes the game.

If you're asking me to commit $6k to a board, (2) S16's, multiple P16's... You're proposing a complete solution that I rely on several times a week that is no longer "cheap." If one component fails, I'm in trouble.

I used to treat all Behringer gear as replaceable. When it broke out of warranty, I threw it away, and bought the same product again. It wasn’t worth fixing. (Think theater groups that hit the street with a few SM58's and need a small mixer. I know the equipment is going to get trashed. The SM58's last longer than the board.)

The X32 is a different class of equipment, and in that realm, the game changes.

Eric H.
 
re: X32 Discussion

You got "only" 16 channel on the Ultranet (P16 system). But don't forget..these can be submixes too! Say you have eleven drum channels, you can submix them to a group, a mixbus, or a matrice and send them as a stereo pair to your P-16M and you have still 14 channel left for the P16. The P-16 runs only on the Ultranet port (there is one on the con console AND on every S-16).
Christian

Thank you! That's all i wanted to know. Yes, i already know that you can assign every possible submix to the P16 as well.
 
Re: X32 Scene Limit

I read recently in the thread that there might be a limit to the number of scenes you can save. Can anyone confirm or deny this? I work primarily musical theater and we can have 3-5 scene changes per page in the script as we change the DCAs very often to simply character mixing.

The 100 scene limit I read would be very unfortunate.
 
Re: X32 Scene Limit

The 100 scene limit I read would be very unfortunate.

100 scenes per show. I didn't have a USB stick with me so I didn't test saving/loading of shows, so I don't know how cumbersome that is/would be. I'm assuming you are only limited in shows by how big your USB drive is - or how quickly you can switch between shows :)
 
re: X32 Discussion

The P-16 runs only on the Ultranet port (there is one on the con console AND on every S-16).
Christian

So would another way to think of this is the Ultranet has only 16 channels? All the P-16's have to pick from the same 16 channels? I think that's what I'm hearing - correct?

If I had two of the S-16's, could I have three groups of channels (one for each of the S-16's and one from the console ultranet port) or is that pushing it? :) I guess I need to go back and play with the routing screens some more!
 
re: X32 Discussion

So would another way to think of this is the Ultranet has only 16 channels? All the P-16's have to pick from the same 16 channels? I think that's what I'm hearing - correct?

If I had two of the S-16's, could I have three groups of channels (one for each of the S-16's and one from the console ultranet port) or is that pushing it? :) I guess I need to go back and play with the routing screens some more!
No, i just looked in the Xcontrol software. You just have one set of 16 channel for all.
That was actually what i was asking.
 
re: X32 Discussion

No, i just looked in the Xcontrol software. You just have one set of 16 channel for all.
That was actually what i was asking.

That's a bummer. Luckily not a barrier for me, but one of the things I liked about systems like MyMix was the ability to custom pick any 16 channels from the greater pool. I wonder if it's a protocol (fundamental) limitation, or something that can be opened up later. I guess we will see!
 
re: X32 Discussion

You're not getting it. My post isn't about 96k, it's about how business works.
A useful thing to keep in mind.
How about the Android app? People seemed excited about that. Let's say profit on one console in $100. Assume it costs $50k to program the Android. Then break-even point is selling 500 more consoles than they could otherwise; if additional sales are less than 500, then they lost money, and if they're more than 500, then the made money.
I first heard that explained as "more is always more" ,,, but this simplistic analysis ignores the opportunity cost from diverting engineering resources away from more profitable activity. Engineering resources are not a variable cost or commodity*** that can be easily expanded and contracted as needed, but more of a corporate asset that must be cultivated and managed for best return (Silas' ROI comment) and grown over time around a core, or several core engineering groups.

Listening to what the man himself has said, I expect him to focus his near term engineering effort into turning this X32 platform technology into several other derivative SKUs that could fall out of this design effort and would be more profitable than chasing some marginal incremental sales for the X32, that seems to already be selling quite well.

So more is more, but even more is even more.
If Behringer has good business sense (and they seem to) then they won't care that you /aren't/ interested in the Android app or 96kHz operation or whatever other feature. They will care if enough people are interested in a particular feature to pay for the development (and marketing, etc.) and leave enough money left over to cover their risk and provide an acceptable profit. This is how business works.
The visible evidence suggests that they have shown good business sense so far.
Think about the X32 itself. If you're in pro audio to make your living, then it only makes sense to buy the X32 if you can make at least $2900 more with the X32 than you could without it. Otherwise it's not good business.

Now you've opened up another can of worms. This new lower price point will appeal to many weekend warriors and sound guys who do not actually make a living from selling their sound services? I'll let Silas explain that calculus.

JR

** there are some recent trends in "commodity" like contracting out of specific engineering design projects. I remain more than a little apprehensive about how effective this could be, where the out of house engineering team first needs to be brought up to speed, and then cut loose after that time/effort investment. Ironically the Android application may actually be a narrow enough unique technology project that could make sense to be farmed out to contract engineers. After all it's only money***.

*** money, or capital, is also a finite resource. While it looks like Uli has pretty deep pockets, nobody has infinite capital. I suspect he has a great deal of capital already tied up in things like this new product (WIP, inventory on the water, etc), and new buildings, and new hires. The dealers don't pay in advance, or even at purchase, like customers do, so dramatically increasing sales require more working capital.

Now that's how business works. :)
 
re: X32 Discussion

Oh, wait... The channel dedicated low-cut slopes are 24 dB. The buss low-cut slope option is 12 dB.

(I'll leave my other post. Might help someone else.)

Any idea what the logic was in the decision to set them there?

I would have expected 12 to 18 on the channel, and either the buss to match, or 24 (if it was thought the busses could actually be setup to behave as a crossover).

Just interested in how that came to be.

12dB channel low cut is very often not enough to remove unwanted stage wash, AFAIK Digico offers the same slope on channel low cut ( 24dB )

For the buses :)~:)~:smile: you are right IMO, 12dB is not much for crossover use, but you can work around this by sending L/R and M through 3 Matrix channels, which will give you two cascaded 6 band EQ sections.
The second order cut filters are Butterworth, so two of them set to the same corner frequency will give you a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley.
If you prefer a 4th order BW filter, add a third filter in PEQ mode ( not VEQ ) set to the same frequency and boost 3dB with Q=1.2 ( the Q might not translate to other consoles, I found this value by try and error, reference was the virtual crossover in my Systune )

Uwe