X32 for theatrical work.

Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per Søvik said:
From the downloads page: "The XControl communicates via UDP/OSC protocol through the X32 Ethernet port"

From the Gearslutz forum by "Bratwurst": "There OSC stuff will be documented and can be downloaded for free, so you could even build your own App for your iPhone or Android smart phone. You could build it with f.e. Touch OSC. "
Bratwurst, is that one of Christian Boche's pseudonyms?

and on this forum, by Christian: "I was told, that Behringer will give access to everybody to the X32-OSC setup up. So you could you your iPhone or Android smart phone and remote control the X32 with f.e. TouchOSC."

So we can assume OSC, and hopefully we can get some documentation of the implementation. I forgot that this had been mentioned before.
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Well spotted Per :thumbup::smug:

I PM'd Uli, hopefully they will release the info :) Ive already worked out some of the commands and when I get a chance I will give it a try with TouchOSC (I already use it for something else)

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Ive quickly thrown together an application to test out the feasibility of OSC . It does nothing more than sent a message "\info" which returns basic info about the X32 including OSC version (I think) and firmware version.

See the attached screenshot, it works :D~:-D~:grin:

Now just need the OSC protocol addresses and methods . Time to sniff again.

Kev
 

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Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Kevin Hunter said:
Well spotted Per :thumbup::smug:

I PM'd Uli, hopefully they will release the info :) Ive already worked out some of the commands and when I get a chance I will give it a try with TouchOSC (I already use it for something else)

Kev
Click to expand...
Downloaded TouchOSC, The Touch OSC Editor and reinstalled the Java SDK, so far so good. I can see how this application could be quite usefull for making a dedicated control on a show by show basis, and certainly for a fixed band setup. (BTW, should we start a separate topic for the OSC stuff, or even move some of the thinking out loud stuff to the appropriate forum at x32user.net if this is not the right forum)
Back to theater specifics, TJShow have got OSC support, so revisiting that application is on the cards, didn't like when I looked at it before, but OSC support makes it attractive.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per Søvik said:
Downloaded TouchOSC, The Touch OSC Editor and reinstalled the Java SDK, so far so good. I can see how this application could be quite usefull for making a dedicated control on a show by show basis, and certainly for a fixed band setup. (BTW, should we start a separate topic for the OSC stuff, or even move some of the thinking out loud stuff to the appropriate forum at x32user.net if this is not the right forum)
Back to theater specifics, TJShow have got OSC support, so revisiting that application is on the cards, didn't like when I looked at it before, but OSC support makes it attractive.
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Heres the application I currently use TouchOSC for ProppFrexx ONAIR User-Forum • View topic - Open Sound Control (OSC) with your iPhone/iPad

And heres the commands (methods) I have found so far

/info
/status
/formatsubscribe
/renew
/xremote
/batchsubscribe

the /info and /status will return a message to you without passing any parameters, the rest need parameters but Ive not worked them out yet :)

Hope that helps getting you started

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per,

Ive managed to use my app to toggle channel 1's mute on and off :)

you need to send the "ch/01/mix/on" method with an integer value of 0 to turn it on and 1 to turn it off.

Ive also decoded the /formatsubscribe and /batch subscribe parameters, they are used to constantly stream the vu meter values and various other info to the remote software so for this application they are not really required and just take up bandwidth.

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Kevin Hunter said:
Ive managed to use my app to toggle channel 1's mute on and off :)
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WOW!!!! ;)~;-)~:wink:

I honestly think I'll hold out for a parameter list and communication protocol from Behringer instead of spending a lot of time trying to hack my way into something that may soon be available. I'll be happy to do some donkeywork with pattern config files and tables for the various applications, but for now I think I have to spend some time reading up on the OSC protocol and figure out what is likely to be possible.
One thing I'm trying to figure out is wether there is a standard method/address definition, i.e. is /system/resync likely to work on all mixers? Will /output/bus/16/level 0.56 set the level on bus 16 on any mixer to 0.56? And what is the deal with the [0,1] floats, is that translated to the physical position of the fader? In other words, my ignorance is unlimited :roll:
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per Søvik said:
One thing I'm trying to figure out is wether there is a standard method/address definition, i.e. is /system/resync likely to work on all mixers? Will /output/bus/16/level 0.56 set the level on bus 16 on any mixer to 0.56?
Click to expand...

OSC is a transport protocol and not a standard, therefore every manufacturers addresses and methods will be different :(~:-(~:sad: so whatever is developed for the x32 will only work on the x32.

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Kevin Hunter said:
OSC is a transport protocol and not a standard, therefore every manufacturers addresses and methods will be different :(~:-(~:sad: so whatever is developed for the x32 will only work on the x32.

Kev
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Yeah, that figures, because all I have been able to figure out as standardized is just packet sizes and such. I thought maybe there was some kind of agreed upon naming convention and parameter format, but alas.....
Oh, well, we just have to nag the people at Behringer then to give us what we want/need.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per Søvik said:
Yeah, that figures, because all I have been able to figure out as standardized is just packet sizes and such. I thought maybe there was some kind of agreed upon naming convention and parameter format, but alas.....
Oh, well, we just have to nag the people at Behringer then to give us what we want/need.
Click to expand...

We might not need it for this application :) - Open a scene file with wordpad on a PC and you will see what I mean ;)

Ive just finsihed an application that that sends a complete scene to the x32, I just need to test it out when I get home from work.

If it works I will upload the beta version here so you can give it a try .

Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Kevin Hunter said:
We might not need it for this application :) - Open a scene file with wordpad on a PC and you will see what I mean ;)

Ive just finsihed an application that that sends a complete scene to the x32, I just need to test it out when I get home from work.

If it works I will upload the beta version here so you can give it a try .

Kev
Click to expand...

He he, never thought to check that. Haven't saved any scenes onto stick, and assumed table format. Guess the transfer is osc but stored internally as table.
I'll have to fire up the X32, stored somewhere else for now, and run thru the whole console to get the complete set. Going on holliday in a couple of weeks, should have time then to make up a pattern config table for Reaper (to have C24-like DAW control) and some libraries for show control. Big scenechanges in showcontrol can be a bit cumbersome, there should be a /scene/load/start..../scene/load/end..../scene/activate sort of thing for the scene remote managment
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

It looks like the scenes work fine in "incremental mode" as well, omitting everything you don't want to change has the same effect as safing those parameters, so the scene files can be cut significantly down in size. As far as I could tell, it didn't cause any problems in terms of crashing anything.
I haven't tested if such an approach will reduce or indeed increase the show loading time from the stick, but I would think that reducing the load for live remote scene changes would be advantageous.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Well , when I saw the format of the scene file I thought that it was going to be a simple case of taking the addresses and parameters and sending them to the X32 but unfortunately that didn't work as expected :(

EG in the scene file when its setting up the input routing it says AN1-8 , what it really means is 0, and when it says AN9-16 it really means 1 etc etc so there's quite a bit of translation required.

Ive got quite a few parts of it running, including all the mutes, the talk back sections , enabling eq's, setting channel names etc and Im working on the rest (might take a few days).

If anybody wants to test it PM me your email address and I will send it to you.

Basically you save a scene file from your x32 onto a USB stick, save it onto your PC , run this app and it will send what ever scene file you select to the x32.

Be warned its still a work in progress ;)
Kev
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Way cool thread and fascinating stuff!

Have you tried sniffing an iPad or Xcontrol on a PC talking to the X32? Wouldn't that give you the ability to see a wide variety of parameters being sent and received?
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Eric Eskam said:
Way cool thread and fascinating stuff!

Have you tried sniffing an iPad or Xcontrol on a PC talking to the X32? Wouldn't that give you the ability to see a wide variety of parameters being sent and received?
Click to expand...

Yes, that has very much been the working method along with studying the files saved to usb-stick and the order things are listed on the screens.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per Søvik said:
Yes, that has very much been the working method along with studying the files saved to usb-stick and the order things are listed on the screens.
Click to expand...

Cool - although hopefully Behringer will release the full spec. That OSC iPad app looks awesome - I can't wait to play with it - I want to jazz up our lighting console and it looks like it will work perfectly. Time to find a good USB/MIDI controller....
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Eric Eskam said:
Cool - although hopefully Behringer will release the full spec. That OSC iPad app looks awesome - I can't wait to play with it - I want to jazz up our lighting console and it looks like it will work perfectly. Time to find a good USB/MIDI controller....
Click to expand...

Behringer makes one ;-)
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

I'd love it if we could get more details on the Midi Spec from Behringer. Ideally if I could toggle the mute state of the channels on the X32 using CC messages from a midi host, I could program an entire theatre show complete with any audio playbacks using something as simple as a Mac Book running Ableton Live. Am I just dreaming now?
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

Per Søvik said:
There are many "Show Control" packages out there, I've been playing with CTR Electronics - CSC Theatre Show Control and Sound Playback Software this one, but haven't got started trying to integrate it with the X32.
There are basically two ways to control a console with show control software. The simplest method is to have the software recall scenes, and the advanced method is to have the software run a full console automation. The former method can be done over Midi, while the latter method requires Midi over ethernet to be fast enough.
With the scene recall method, you build a library of scenes, and the software recalls the appropriate scene. This allows you to do big shows with a limited amount of scenes because you can reuse scenes over and over. Does of course require a lot of planning.
The full automation method involves recording the complete console setting and movements in the software, and running the whole thing like it was remote controlled.
A semi- automation method that normally works in Midi, is to have scene recall with some limited automation adjusting the scenes, this can be very versatile.

So far I'm still unsure what will actually work on the X32 as is, and what is possible to achieve with some patching in a midi patching software, but I intend to explore it when I get around to setting things up. Our next theatrical performance is in November, so that is my timeframe for now. Unfortunately, we just spent a fortune on new premises that will contain a performance stage and a studio, and I have to do all the work on my own, so time might get a bit tight :uhoh:
Click to expand...

Most of the things I asked for at the beginning of this thread can be done on most other digital mixers so I assume that some of it was just an over site. If it was intentionally left off and will not be incorporated I would just like to know so I can remove the X32 from consideration for the shows I do.

Keep in mind that I usually safe everything but the fader movements, but I occasionally recall other things on a scene-by-scene basis.

I may not have said this at the beginning of this tread but I don’t have a lot of time to program these shows and the way I have been doing it has worked well for me.

I looked into the Show control that you linked to and I might be missing something but I don’t see that it has anything to offer that would help me. I wish it did and I might be missing something but I can’t find it in anything I have read on their web site or in their quick start guide.

When you mentioned the Show Control software and I looked at it I was hoping I could do the following –

Save more scenes then the console can presently do. It looks like it might be able to recall scenes out of order with its own numbering scheme. But that looks messy. I wouldn’t even consider reusing a scene at another part of the show because if I make a change to it in one part I may be messing up the other place where it would be used. And as I mentioned I am not given enough time.

How about just saving over the scene I am working on as quickly as I can do it on the fly on most digital consoles, usually during a rehearsal or maybe even during a show. Half the time I am saving changes to a scene as I being given the cue to go to the next scene. It looks like it doesn’t write the data (scene) into SC it just recalls the consoles scenes.

Inserting a scene on the fly without me having to be mouse-ing around or clicking around to do it.

I can do most if not all of these things on different digital mixers. And I don’t see the need for what it looks like Show Control can do.

I use a sampler (poor mans instant replay) to playback sound effects. So that part of the program doesn’t interest me.

I am not sure what you can do with OSC but I would be interested to see what the capabilities are. BTW I have used a Behringer BCF2000 to control the Roland M400 mixer.

This is something I posted on the LAB last year.

I have used the BCF2000 with a couple of different digital consoles to give me some expanded fader capabilities. The one problem with this type of usage is the restrictions when dealing with scene recalls. The scene recalls in most of the consoles don’t send the data necessary to update the status of faders. So I only use it to control faders or other things that I have safed so there aren’t any changes to those faders when scenes are recalled.

One feature on some of the consoles is called SYSEXE (I think it stands for system exclusive) where it dumps a lot of data on a scene recall. I don’t know if it works the same on every console but on the Roland M400 it dumps so much data that it causes the BCF2000 to be unresponsive while it is waiting for all of the data. It is a lot of data that is of no use to the unit but it still has to wait. Luckily on the M400 it can be turned off. Otherwise it would be unusable.
 
Re: X32 for theatrical work.

If you are willing to use a computer, I believe Kevin Hunter's application eventually will do the things you need.
As for Midi control, there doesn't seem to be Midi support for much else than the DAW-controller functions, and I guess it will remain that way, leaving us to manage with OSC over ethernet for most things.
Now for one of my pet peeves, ever since I did an undergraduate project on the subject eons ago, I've been trying to make project managers understand the relationship between users and project managment and how best to utilize and harness user interaction and feedback. Allthough the current process in many ways falls outside the traditional project definition, there is no doubt that this is the implementation phase of the X32 project, and the roles can be clearly defined allthough they are obviously quite obscure to most of us in the user group. I can write a few pages about this, but I'll just skip to what is relevant to this topic for now.

It is quite possible that the X32 have got enough on board memory and other resources to implement a higher number of scenes, multiple shows, scene insert etc. We won't know if nobody tells us.
It is quite possible that the development team has decided to implement these things, or has decided against it, again we won't know.

What would be good, is for someone in the development team that reads these forums to communicate these things.

Either: "We can't do it because of hardware limitations" or "We won't consider it at the present time because we don't see the need", but preferably "Yes, we can do that, and here is what we propose:.........., please comment on the proposed change"
And then when a change has "matured" thru' user interaction, set a rough timeframe for when the change will be implemented.

So, Behringer developers, can we have more scenes and scene insert????
 
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