X32 Discussion

re: X32 Discussion

Steve Maksim said:
The M7 is alone in its high fader count. While there is a small niche that finds this extremely attractive, I would largely interpret the lack of other high fader count consoles as the market speaking its mind: for the most part people don't want to carry, maintain, or make room for all those faders; either they don't have someone to help them set up, or they're trying to sell more seats. Even Yamaha's new CL series desks don't have high fader counts. If more faders are really the sticking point, one can pick something besides the M7 and augment it with a control surface.

Why am I picking on Yamaha? In one word, preamps. I would consider the defining feature of the M7 to be its sonic "characteristics." I'm not saying that they can't be overcome, but it's what I think of when I think of that console.

Besides, you're comparing apples to oranges. What reasonable comparison can be made between a 32 and 48 channel desk when 48 channels are required? I specifically called out the M7CL-32.
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It would be interesting to have real sales numbers comparing the M7 to other medium priced consoles. The market speaks, but I'm not sure it's saying "fewer faders please". I have been arguing the ease of use of consoles with layers for many years, and the M7 is not my favorite console, but I think its ubiquity speaks volumes about how some view it.

Mac
 
re: X32 Discussion

Joshua Bessom said:
Sadly for Yamaha you're probably right..I think it can compete with the M7, at a fraction of the cost.
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I don't think the X32 can compete with the M7 or LS9 for that matter. It's targeted at a certain market and it hits that market well, but it's not going to replace Yamaha / Digico / Digidesign etc......

The Yamaha kit has proven reliability and Yamaha has proven track record for servicing and support - Behringer has none of these.

Please don't start the pre-amp debate - Behringer has a less than illustrious history of pre-amp 'design'.
 
re: X32 Discussion

You can't argue with fader count, layers is a compromize. The M7CL has a very good layout, too many faders in a row can sometimes be confusing, the M7CL ergonomics makes it easy to stay on top of things.

Still, the look of the thing bugs me, it just doesn't look like a sound mixer. :blush:


All this talk about riders is meaningless for 95% of the initial buyers of the X32. The people fulfilling riders don't have to look at mixers in this pricerange, and if and when people are starting to request the X32, the rental houses will stock them if they haven't already. If you are a full service sound provider, you are normally asked to provide a service, not a specific tool.

It is like paying someone to come to your house to do some woodwork for you, and specifying "No Black&Decker".
If you rent the tools you specify the tools, if you rent the service, you specify the service.

The question right now is if the X32 will take a lot of business away from Yamaha 01 and the Presonus offerings, and wether the A&H GLD80 will corner the next-tier market that the X32 should have had a better shot at if it had come out slightly earlier.
 
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re: X32 Discussion

Oliver Driver said:
I don't think the X32 can compete with the M7 or LS9 for that matter. It's targeted at a certain market and it hits that market well, but it's not going to replace Yamaha / Digico / Digidesign etc......

The Yamaha kit has proven reliability and Yamaha has proven track record for servicing and support - Behringer has none of these.

Please don't start the pre-amp debate - Behringer has a less than illustrious history of pre-amp 'design'.
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I'll start the preamp debate again. The cheap Yami pres have an overload curve that I know and don't like. Midas Venice pres have a curve I know and like. You can argue that all you want. We had an in depth discussion a few months ago.
With all the buzz these days about saturation plugins and useful overdrive and distortion it is just stupid to ignore preamp overload characteristics as it is the first gain stage and effects everything downstream. This is common consideration in recording.
Now, for a non-rider gig, how is an LS9 better than an X32 if all works as promised? If you are paying for the console.
 
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re: X32 Discussion

John Chiara said:
I'll start the preamp debate again. The cheap Yami pres have an overload curve that I know and don't like. Midas Venice pres have a curve I know and like. You can argue that all you want. We had an in depth discussion a few months ago.
With all the buzz these days about saturation plugins and useful overdrive and distortion it is just stupid to ignore preamp overload characteristics as it is the first gain stage and effects everything downstream. This is common consideration in recording.
Now, for a non-rider gig, how is an LS9 better than an X32 if all works as promised? If you are paying for the console.
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This seems a bit off topic. A moderately skilled operator can avoid clipping the mic preamps.

AFAIK Midas mic preamp soft-clipping limiters are not available in the Behringer X-32.

I am always uncomfortable with quality comparisons between console mic preamps. Hearing that overload characteristic is now considered part of
that sound characteristic (by some), is analogous to how a race car handles after bouncing off the wall... It needs to be stable and recover quickly, but IMO it is generally not a good idea to spend much time bumping into the wall.

JR
 
re: X32 Discussion

I guess design philosophy varies a bit, some will saturate the preamp before all the bits in the AD are used up and others will go for a clean preamp all the way to AD clipping.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Tim McCulloch said:
Then turn the fucker down and don't clip it.
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Not trying to cause trouble with this discussion. I am sure users of cheaper boards have encountered input saturation variation from console to console. For example, a 16 ch mix running channels at +3 Db on the input metering on a Mixwiz will be pretty different than if using a Crest XR 20 or am APB. A lot of X32's will find their way into inexperienced hands so that kind of headroom MAY play a role in their day to day mixing setups. Just sayin...I don't normally clip the preamps!
 
re: X32 Discussion

Per Søvik said:
I guess design philosophy varies a bit, some will saturate the preamp before all the bits in the AD are used up and others will go for a clean preamp all the way to AD clipping.
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Not to add to the veer, historically early digital conversions were not very tolerant of overload, so it was prudent to saturate the analog path before the digital code could roll over (very nasty sounding). Modern digital conversion is much more benign when saturated but still not very desirable (IMO).

I already added my $0.02 in a midas thread about adding a soft clipping feature to mic preamps. Regarding mic preamp "sound", when not clipped, most sound very alike, because they are. When clipped they still "should" sound mostly similar, only somewhat less similar due to perhaps subtly different added distortion (not talking about a dedicated soft clipper). I suspect perceived headroom differences between some brands may be influenced by gain pot law, gain structure, metering, etc.

Way off topic for this thread, so I apologize.

JR

PS: Midas is not the only company to dabble into nonlinear transfer function at the top of the range to give the appearance of increased headroom or dynamic range. IIRC DBX was playing some games with one series of digital GEQ., and lets not forget all the clip limiters in analog power amps,,, Power to our inner DJ . :)
 
re: X32 Discussion

John Roberts said:
Way off topic for this thread, so I apologize.
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It's called "fill", when nothing is happening on stage or on the track, the commentators have to entertain the audience. :razz:

Sort of hoping the pc remote would materialize as indicated by Christian, that would have given us something to discuss.

We could of course discuss the rather disappointing XiControl, but it wouldn't be fair of me to initiate such a discussion when I haven't actually tried it. I'm sure most of you would agree that faders only is of limited value, and certainly rather inferior to the offering from the manufacturer that is viewed to be the closest competition. I don't expect the current version of XiControl to be the final one, and limited functionality is far better than none.
 
re: X32 Discussion

Per Søvik said:
It's called "fill", when nothing is happening on stage or on the track, the commentators have to entertain the audience. :razz:

Sort of hoping the pc remote would materialize as indicated by Christian, that would have given us something to discuss.

We could of course discuss the rather disappointing XiControl, but it wouldn't be fair of me to initiate such a discussion when I haven't actually tried it. I'm sure most of you would agree that faders only is of limited value, and certainly rather inferior to the offering from the manufacturer that is viewed to be the closest competition. I don't expect the current version of XiControl to be the final one, and limited functionality is far better than none.
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Is the iPad control app available again?
 
re: X32 Discussion

John Chiara said:
Is the iPad control app available again?
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Not as far as I can tell, but if I'm not missing something rather obvious, you have only got the following selection of faders (with mutes) and nothing else:

Ch 1-8
Ch 9-16
Ch 17-24
Ch 25-32
Aux 1-6
FX 1L-4R
Bus 1-8
Bus 9-16
Mix Main
DCA 1-8
 
re: X32 Discussion

Per Søvik said:
Another review here:
Sonic LAB: Behringer X-32 Digital Desk Review Part 1, Hardware overview - ask away for more information (Video) -Sonicstate.com
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Having missed the Manhattan demo's (where I live) I made the trek out to the Guitar Center (Garden City LI) & spent some time with "John Dinicola" who is a Product Support Specialist with Behringer for the North East. John came into the store carrying the X32 (sans case) & quickly set it up and although we where maybe not in an ideal situation (in the middle of a Guitar Center) John quickly hooked up a PS-16M (Personal Monitor System), plugged in a pair of powered speakers belonging to the store, a MBP & S-16, an SM58 & some playback tracks from the MBP & we where off!!


John was very knowledgable & has an easy manner & gave us a fairly extensive Demo & we (only 4 of us which worked out great for us!) jumped on the board & I have to say it is very impressive I think ESPECIALLY for under $3k!!! The mind boggles. John explained that Behringer makes there own Faders (which are replaceable individually if & when one goes down) This was a significant saving for them which helped keep the cost down (when they started designing the X32 they thought it would be in the $5/6k range so kudos too them for bringing it in under $3k.
The Pre's sounded good (in a challenging environment) the Faders feel responsive if a little on the light side. The pots & switches all felt fairly solid & the layout is great. Very easy to understand without a Manual for a basic setup. I reckon anyone with a little knowledge of Digital Mixers could be up & running with only a couple of hours of use! Then you can delve deeper, that's one of the most positive things about the X32. It has a great user interface!


I have my own grips with Behringer over the years and still own a 'Composer' (along w/ 2x Distressors, DBX 160x, DBX 166) a HA4700 phones amp & a Splitter/Mixer that I use in my project studio daily & always thought they make some very handy tools at a low price but I never liked ANY of their Mixing boards except for the little 4 into 2 mix pad kinda thing which at times is a handy little tool.
My only point here is that I've had good & bad Behringer experience over the years as you all have & I really do NOT want to get into any discussions about that but, I believe that the X32 'can' be a game changer and that Behringer seem to be trying very hard to change their image & I want one!!!


My main concern prior to getting my hands on this board was that it might "feel" cheap which it doesn't. It can be picked up by the handles on either side by one person fairly easily but feels solid too.


LS9 watch out!!!! Is what I'm thinking!
I don't think it's really going to take over the StudioLive market as that's a "somewhat" different user but I'm sure Presonus are scrambling to make a 32ch board which can only be a positive for users!!


I would like to thank "John Dinicola" again for letting us tool around with his baby for a whil &being an all round decent bloke!!
Cheers!


PS- Take a look at the Sonicstate video review, it goes over most of the features & they are doing another more extensive later!
 
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