X32 Discussion

Re: Warranty

I shipped mine out on a Monday and they received it, repaired it and it was on its way to me Thursday that same week. I received it on Tuesday. They were really quick. Sorry to hear you might need some repair.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Dan Mortensen said:
Hi Jim,

Thanks for this good note, which is just what I wanted to hear.

I appreciate the PM and offer to discuss offline, but think that this is an issue of interest to the group and would prefer to discuss it here. If there is a reason you would prefer not to, I'd be happy to discuss offline with the understanding that I can report back to the group what we find.

To partially answer your questions about my application, note that this has only happened once to me so far, and that I could try to replicate it in my shop and will, but am trying to do a year's worth of bookkeeping in a few days so my accountant will have some way to tell me how much to pay the government next month. Posting in this thread has been almost my only relaxation the past few days.

That said, here is a pic of the location where it happened, and some closeups of a snake with the same components of the snake on which it occurred, and I'll highlight the differences:

View attachment 6267

The first one shows the mix position, with the flown snake coming down from the ceiling and then going under the line of tables to get to the console. The guy on the left at the console is "my" awesome FOH engineer, Allan; not sure who is on the right or on stage.

As mentioned earlier in a post, the table legs are kind of a ] on its side, so there is a low space underneath through which I ran the snake. The gap is maybe 2 or 3 inches tall.

The snake has three components: a yellow 12/5 SOOW carrying UPS'd power for the console, and a separate circuit of AC for incidental usage; a four-pair XLR analog cable for Clearcom or whatever; and in this case two Belden Data Tuff Ethercon cables.

Here is a recap of what I wrote in reply to Michael Roper, who actually brought up the issue and reminded me of this incident:

=====================================
TecNec Neutrik Ethercon / Belden Data Tuff CAT5e Cable Assemblies by TecNec CAT-5 Cables at Markertek.com

The mess* was running under some tables that had legs that looked like ] laying on its side, making a low space below the crossbar. The cable mess was kind of coiled but not kinked, and I pulled on it to pull it through the space under the leg assembly to straighten it out.

The PA which was on, emitted a burst of pink noise sounding stuff, and stopped when I stopped pulling. I pulled again, and it did it again.

My FOH engineer, who is one of the most experienced PA techs in the NW if not the world, and I looked at each other, and he was as baffled as I. He said maybe the dynamic kinking of the cable was enough to interrupt the sync? But neither of us had a better explanation, and the cable had tested out OK earlier with a Greenlee tester. I bought this cable because it purports to be one of the toughest CAT 5 cables available.

The cable assembly/mess was where it needed to be by that time, and we left it alone, and it performed perfectly for the rest of the 5 days with no more bursts of anything.

=======================================

*For this post, I'll clarify that the "mess" was a group of separate cables running together rather than the taped or coiled mass that I prefer to create. The next couple of pics show the same components, plus one more Data Tuff cable, assembled into a single unit:



View attachment 6268View attachment 6269

This is a different cable in a different location on an equally interesting gig that also deserves a post, but you can see the components perhaps more clearly. The three data cables are twisted into a rope-like thing, and then the two smaller are wrapped around the larger to create a highly visible yet easily manipulate-able object, rather than a collection of separate things. The loose cables of the first snake can get tangled big-time, especially if you add a lighting DMX cable that has to be removed on loadout, as happened to us.

The first snake was like it was because the Gepco Tactical that I'd ordered was out of stock, and the gig had to have snakes, so I got the Belden loose cables for one stage, and some much cheaper Cat 5 without Ethercons from B&H for the other. The snake in these two pictures was at a third stage. No incidents occurred with either the B&H cable or this snake, but I didn't try to pull them under a table and neither was getting stomped on.

The process of coming up with this snake system was interesting to me, and I thought perhaps it would be worth a post, too, as it might be useful to other people. People should let me know if you want to know more, otherwise I won't waste my time on it.

Hope this helped, let me know if you have more questions.
Dan
Click to expand...

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your reply. Whilst I agree 100% with you that we should share our findings here on the face of the forum. I feel discussing the matter via PM first will ensure that we not only post details that hold value for and are useful to the wider forum community but that we don't clog up threads with our Q & A's. As soon as we draw any conclusions you are more than welcome to share them here and we will publish them via our knowledge base.

Kind Regards
Jim Knowles
CARE EMEA / Tech Support
MUSIC Group / BEHRINGER
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Chris Mittlesteadt said:
I have an interesting problem. It could simply be that I'm missing something somewhere too. I have a performing arts center installation with an X32 and 3 S16 units. I'm using 2 S16 boxes run from the console's AES50A port then into the first S16's AES50A port then out of the same unit's AES50B port into the second S16's AES50A port for stage inputs and outputs. In other words, all daisy-chained from the X32 AES50A. The third S16 serves as system outputs to processing/amp rack and is connected to the console's AES50B port via the S16's AES50A port. Here's the rub - I've got a line run to an alternate mix position in the house that is connected to the third (last mentioned) S16's AES50B port. For some reason, I cannot obtain sync between the console and #3 S16 when connected from the AES50B port on the console to the AES50B port on #3 S16. Does anyone know why? It's not cabling, because I can connect just fine with this alternate cable run if I connect to S16 #3's AES50A port. What am I doing wrong?

BTW, I'm really enjoying the flexibility of the system vs. the cost!



Thanks!
Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

The issue here is simply how you have it connected. You can either connect the 3rd S16 directly to the X32,

X32 AES50 B > 3rd Unit AES50 A Configure 3rd S16 17-24 / Out + 16 Led Lit / Splitter LED lit if you want the audio split to ADAT outs

...or you can daisy chain all three S16's,

X32 > 1st S16 AES50A
1st S16 AES50 B > 2nd S16 AES50A
2nd S16 AES50B > 3rd S16 AES50A

Configure 1st S16 to 1-8 / Splitter LED lit if you want the audio split to ADAT outs
Configure 2nd S16 to 1-16 / Out + 8 Led Lit / Splitter LED lit if you want the audio split to ADAT outs
Configure 3rd S16 to 17-24 / Out + 16 Led Lit / Splitter LED lit if you want the audio split to ADAT outs

Myself and my colleague have just hooked up 3 daisy chained S16's with an X32, with a little creative routing everything works just as we wanted it to. Hope this helps.

Kind Regards
Jim Knowles
CARE EMEA / Tech Support
MUSIC Group / BEHRINGER
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Hi Jim,

when I understand it right the only problem Chris had is the labeling of the S16. It would be much clearer, if Behringer had labeled the AES A as an input an the AES B as an thru at the S16. Am I right Chris, or did I miss something?

Regards
Thomas
 
First gig with a complete X32/S16/P16 system

Just a quick to post to mention that after a couple of weeks of rehearsals with my band, we finally gigged with our complete X32 system at the weekend.

X32
S16 x 2
P16-M x 5
P16-D

stagebox.jpg desk.jpg
The S16's and P16-D are in the rack case somewhere!
There's even room at the front for some wireless bits.
The ABS rack is MIDI stuff for the bass player.

This is the way that gigs should be.
I set up the desk at FOH, plugged in the mains power (I have a block inside the case that also feeds a wireless router, also fixed into the case) and the CAT5 snake and that was it. In only a couple of mins, FOH was ready to go.
It was pleasantly strange to only make one connection to the desk, rather than having to hookup 32 XLRs and then the inserts.
It looked a lot tidier as well. Only two cables poking out from the dogbox (mains and CAT5).
The CAT5 snake was easily deployed to the stage and packed away afterwards (in fact, one of the female venue techs did that, on her own; it used to take two men to wrestle with the analog snakes we carried!).
Btw, it's the Thomann 50m blue snake. In rehearsal, I hooked it up to our spare and ran the full 100m with no issues.
OK, so all the cable stayed on the reels. I don't know how that would play out in a real world situation.

At the stage end, it was just a matter of plugging the instruments into their channels and we were away.
I'm glad I put the time in with the rehearsals, as the S16's needed to be set up, as well as getting the desk to talk to them.
But that only had to be done the once.
It's all plug and play now.

The guys have used the P16-M's for a while now, and they love them. Send them everything pre-fade and they can only blame themselves for a bad IEM mix! Mind you, they've now all turned on the guitar player and told him to sort his levels out!

The one big thing I noticed was how much quiter the PA system self noise was when connecting the PA amps to the S16's.
The analog run from the S16's to the amps was only about 3m, which I suppose was the reason for this.
Before the S16's the amps were fed from the outputs on the desk, down 35m of analog snake.
There aren't enough superlatives to describe how good this system is for the application I bought it for.
It does everything I've ever wanted from a desk, snake and personal monitoring system and at an amazing price.
Bring on the v2 software, et al...

Speaking of things to come, has anyone got hold of the IQ speakers yet?
I'd very much like to take some for a test drive.....

Karl.
 
Firewire

I've searched the Forum but can't see any guide for setting up the Firewire connection.

I have the FW selected on the X32. It show up in Live 9 and in Sonar X2

However Live 9 does not respond well at all.

Sonar seems to run OK but there is no audio output.

I can run the USB connection fine. No problem there.

I'd just like to use the Firewire option as there is a slightly better latency.
 
Re: Firewire

Liam:

Does your FW adapter have a "TI" (Texas Instruments) chipset? Often times, this can be the deciding factor in "does it work" or "does it not work".

Typically, a non-TI interface won't result in "missing" audio, but can contribute to massive amounts of clicks/pops...

I hope this helps, at least a little....

Don

Liam Donaldson said:
I've searched the Forum but can't see any guide for setting up the Firewire connection.

I have the FW selected on the X32. It show up in Live 9 and in Sonar X2

However Live 9 does not respond well at all.

Sonar seems to run OK but there is no audio output.

I can run the USB connection fine. No problem there.

I'd just like to use the Firewire option as there is a slightly better latency.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Firewire

I'm not sure about the make of this firewire - Its on an Asus mobo running Windows 8 64bit

Will check it out. Thanks.

Its a VIA VT6315N controller.




Donald P Leaman said:
Liam:

Does your FW adapter have a "TI" (Texas Instruments) chipset? Often times, this can be the deciding factor in "does it work" or "does it not work".

Typically, a non-TI interface won't result in "missing" audio, but can contribute to massive amounts of clicks/pops...

I hope this helps, at least a little....

Don
Click to expand...
 
Re: Warranty

Nic Morris said:
The official reply I received to that question was 10-14 days unless spare parts are required which may then take longer. In the two occasions I have returned a unit to Kidderminster it has been returned within 14 days.
Click to expand...
thanks for reply, its been at kidderminster for 8 days so might get it back next week . gonna have to dust off the mixwizard for this weekend then ( good job i've not sold it yet )
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Thanks, Jim, this totally works for me.

Let me know if you need more info than I've posted here.

Thanks,
Dan

Jim Knowles said:
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your reply. Whilst I agree 100% with you that we should share our findings here on the face of the forum. I feel discussing the matter via PM first will ensure that we not only post details that hold value for and are useful to the wider forum community but that we don't clog up threads with our Q & A's. As soon as we draw any conclusions you are more than welcome to share them here and we will publish them via our knowledge base.

Kind Regards
Jim Knowles
CARE EMEA / Tech Support
MUSIC Group / BEHRINGER
Click to expand...
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Motivated by the info below, I spent a little while this afternoon trying to see what happens when a CAT5e cable is bent, kinked, stomped on, and otherwise messed with while connected between the X32 and an S16. There were two cables, first one of the Belden Data Tuff described earlier in the thread (but not the same one, this one was only 10' long), and then a generic chunk of cable that probably came from Monoprice or someplace similar.

Despite my best efforts, nothing affected either one.

Then I took a piece of black iron water pipe and wrapped the generic cable around it as tight and as much as possible, which turned out to be exactly 40 turns.

IMG_0619.jpg

Despite this apparent violation of the admonition to avoid wrapping the cable around a ferrous object, the connection between console and snake head continued just fine. Talking over a microphone connected to the snake didn't sound any different than did the 10' Belden cable when going back and forth between cables.

Using the only CAT5 measuring tool at my disposal, the Greenlee NETcat Pro 2, resulted in the following indications of length and continuity:

IMG_0620.jpg

It was set up for 20 minutes or so in case the negative effects took a little while, but there was no detectible difference upon returning and redoing the listening and measuring.

Removing the iron pipe gave the following readings

IMG_0621.jpg

which show that SOMETHING changed, but it wasn't enough to affect the sound of one mic and one drive signal traveling through the snake.

The horrible aftermath of removing the pipe:

IMG_0622.jpg

which was actually easily fixed with some straightening.

This is at best anecdotal evidence, but it is encouraging that the connection and transmission were so secure, at least with the minimum amount of data possible. It would be a bigger project than I had time for to generate maximum data going and coming, but maybe the factory can do that?

In conclusion, more testing will need to be done to declare that we are unlikely to have a problem with bending/kinking/stomping etc., but it is encouraging so far. While I was sure that I heard what I heard the way it was described in an earlier post, there is a chance that this incident could be a simple confirmation of Mortensen's Second Law, which can be found at

Laws For Audio Engineers

and is down about 3/4 through (it's not alphabetical for some reason), and the whole list is an enjoyable way to while away some time.



Dan Mortensen said:
Aaron's post frankly gobsmacked me, and in addition to replying here, I asked our local AES Committee the question "The console uses AES50 on Cat5e cables; is there an issue with running those cables next to twisted pair AC cables for a couple hundred feet?" as well as providing a link to this thread and a little background info.

There are some pretty heavy theoretical hitters on our Committee, and Rick Chinn was the first to reply. His response in its entirety:

"the cat5 business is pretty well defined at the hardware level, so it shouldn't be influenced by stray fields from AC cabling. you should be careful, however, to not wrap the cat5 around something ferrous, or subject it to sharp bends.

"Microphone cables, can be affected, but I think there is a greater risk from current induced into the shield conductor that flows into a piece that has a pin 1 problem.

"At the WAMU theater, I assisted Bill Whitlock in solving a hum problem they had. The AC cables (three-phase, Y) were tossed into a trough, and the mike snake went into a separate trough. There was a significant amount of ground current flowing in the neutral of the power system.

"My recall is that this turned into a loop area problem, and we solved it by putting the mike snake in with the AC.

"The same loop area problem makes a good case for running your console's AC line alongside the mike snake. the caveat about mike cables and AC cables comes from following the lighting company's feeder lines, which likely have spikey nasty stuff from thyristor dimmers all over it. That stuff is not good for your audio. as usual someone simplified it to include ALL ac wiring, which just isn't so."

And there you have it. Knowing Rick and his background and experience, and barring new evidence to the contrary, I consider this issue closed and will continue doing what you saw in the earlier post.

And as a related aside, if you ever have an opportunity to hear Bill Whitlock speak about grounding, loop area, etc., you should take advantage of it.

Edit: A couple people wrote about what happens when 1) you kink a Cat 5 or other digital cable, and 2) wrap an AC cable with data cable:

1) "it can change the impedance characteristic and cause reflections which turn into data errors. Same for wrapping it around something ferrous (like a stage leg)"

2) "Wrapping the entire cable with all conductors should not affect data, audio or bandwidth since that would be common mode filtering. Like a common mode toroid.

"If there are other paths external to the cable, things may be different."

Each twisted pair of Cat 5 is balanced, too.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Mortensen's Second Law

Hello


This is a little sidestep.

Some forty years ago I was at friends who had a nonfunctional cassette player. They asked me to take a look. They had some tools - so I opened it, while there was no sign of life and I suspected to find blown fuse inside. I found a dead fuse inside mounted on pc-board with double spring holder. Since there were no spare parts available in their house, I decided to replace it with screwdriver.

Someone had sneaked behind me with a camera and flash - and he/she took a picture right on the second my screwdriver touched the fuseholder.....

After finding the screwdriver from other end of the room and some yelling I verified the cassette player was o.k. when new fuse arrives....





P.S. CAT-cable plus FOH-power tightly wrapped around each other wit no problems at all.
 
Re: Warranty

Dan Towell said:
thanks for reply, its been at kidderminster for 8 days so might get it back next week . gonna have to dust off the mixwizard for this weekend then ( good job i've not sold it yet )
Click to expand...


Hi Dan,

I have checked with our dispatch team I can confirm that your X32 will be dispatched today and should arrive with you before 5pm on Monday ( 18/03/13). Should you have any questions or concerns or require any further assistance then please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind Regards
Jim Knowles
CARE EMEA / Tech Support
MUSIC Group / BEHRINGER
 
Re: AC and signal cable of whatever type

Chris Wadden said:
I'm curious if anyone knows the reason why it's reading 2 feet longer on a couple pins?
Click to expand...

Possibly impedance change due to being wrapped around an iron pipe? However, I've also noticed that difference in pair length on other cables sitting in midair.

As I tried to imply, though, that was the only obvious difference between wrapped and unwrapped.
 
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