60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

What I’m going to do is add 3mm to the 43.31 and 76mm. I’m using 16mm ply and I’m making it 386mm wide (external). I am planning on eliminating the 10mm space and routing a grove to allow for 10mm of cone travel.


Hi Peter, I took your adjustments and went to 47mm and 79mm... this gives a spot-on slope on 9 degrees for the baffle board, and for easier old school calculations
Pieces are cut and under glue , yea. (I'm using 18mm BB ply for both horn and 12" baffle boards, as well as MF horn walls. Everything else is 15mm ply.)
So outside dimensions are 380w by 430d by 932h, as I've tried to hold the MF horn dimensions right to 90x50 plan.

Those original plans for the 90x50 are laying out great for both horns...and with removable baffles, double yea.
The HF950 works of course works great as per plans (thank you too, Don) .... the XT1460 baffle board is comprised of a two thickness bafffle board...one spacer the same 18mm thickness as the HT950 baffle, and then 15mm pieces on top of that spacer cut to fit for the XT1464.

Still, a few questions please

Is there any reason other than creating clearance between the BMS 4594's terminals and the 12" RCF drivers, to recess the the 12" in the baffle boards?
IOW, does the volume between the driver and baffle board matter?

I've cut 12mm spacers, but have also tooled up to recess the RCF's into the baffle boards per your suggested tiering....doesn't matter construction-wise which way I go...... I think clearance will work either way although that's clearly more certain with recessing ...just want to optimize for sound quality

And what did you find center of gravity, front to back? IOW, pole mount position.

Any reason not to put handles in the center of the box vertically? I'm thinking the handle holes in the center will help making sure wires are OK given the tight clearances.

THANKS

No reason - its just to create more space. The volume between the driver is a little less but I ran a sim and the effect is very minimal. As you said it will work either way.

The centre of gravity is towards the back of the box. I just found the balance point and mounted the pole-mount accordingly.

I positioned the handles towards the bottom to make it easier to walk with the box and lift it onto a speaker stand.

I was to try and stop the bottom of the box from hitting your legs as you walked and reduce the additional lift need to place it on a stand .... not sure I got it 100% correct.

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

The centre of gravity is towards the back of the box. I just found the balance point and mounted the pole-mount accordingly.



Hello

I suppose being a pole-mounted speaker it should be tilted some 15-30 degrees most of the time - unless your audience is on "hillside" - so perhaps it would be fine to have one straight pole-adapter in the back and adjustable in the front...

Just my two €-cents - very interesting project indeed !!

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

No reason - its just to create more space. The volume between the driver is a little less but I ran a sim and the effect is very minimal. As you said it will work either way.

The centre of gravity is towards the back of the box. I just found the balance point and mounted the pole-mount accordingly.

I positioned the handles towards the bottom to make it easier to walk with the box and lift it onto a speaker stand.

I was to try and stop the bottom of the box from hitting your legs as you walked and reduce the additional lift need to place it on a stand .... not sure I got it 100% correct.

Thanks...
It appears the interchangeable horns are going to work aok...

 

[Don J Davis]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Thanks...
It appears the interchangeable horns are going to work aok...

View attachment 12483

Great progress Mark! I'm on hold for several reasons right now but hope to proceed soon. What was the final overall front to back outside dimension you settled on?

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Great progress Mark! I'm on hold for several reasons right now but hope to proceed soon. What was the final overall front to back outside dimension you settled on?

Thx Don ! My box is a very close clone of your HF950 drawing (and wouldn't exist w/o your drawing

Outside dims are 430 deep, by 380 wide, by 932 high. (using 18mm ply for baffle boards and MF fold, and 15 mm for exterior walls)

 

[Don J Davis]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

FYI for those of us in the US, the nice folks at Parts Express have been kind enough to add the HF950 to their website (after me being a pest to them). I ordered 2 today.
Their part number is 294-810. When you enter it on their site it may say No Longer Available but there was a link at the bottom of the page that allowed me to put them in the cart.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

FYI for those of us in the US, the nice folks at Parts Express have been kind enough to add the HF950 to their website (after me being a pest to them). I ordered 2 today.
Their part number is 294-810. When you enter it on their site it may say No Longer Available but there was a link at the bottom of the page that allowed me to put them in the cart.

That's fantastic ... well done.

Slowly get there with the 60 degree version. It also looks like I will also be able to stay with the original depth

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

That's fantastic ... well done.

Slowly get there with the 60 degree version. It also looks like I will also be able to stay with the original depth

Looking good Peter! It's going to be very interesting to hear how you compare them to the HF950 version.

Btw, I received the 3tx mentioned in the other diy mid-high thread. They sound great....and if they can be considered the " little brother " to your design, i'm even more stoked !! The bms 4593 driver in them has such good transient response imo....can't wait to hear the 4594 HE.

 

[Don J Davis]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Slowly get there with the 60 degree version. It also looks like I will also be able to stay with the original depth

Looks really good Peter. I'm slowly picking away at my 1st box. The second will be easier.
I see how much you rounded over that inside corner, will the radius on the outside corner make a big impact on the sound of the horn? I haven't installed that yet.

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Looks really good Peter. I'm slowly picking away at my 1st box. The second will be easier.
I see how much you rounded over that inside corner, will the radius on the outside corner make a big impact on the sound of the horn? I haven't installed that yet.

I suspect the extra rounding of the corner will not make any difference – I did it because it was easy to do and I could. I figured the smoother I could make the curve the better, especially for the higher frequencies, but I don’t know if it will make any noticeable improvement.

I have also rounded off the first bend where the speaker exit's into the horn and fill the space behind the corner curves with expanding foam to stop the thin ply from resonating.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Making progress.... inner shell in glue-up



Shell done, box ready for glue...
60 degree horn will get two grills w horn left exposed....it's a good looking horn


some box w 90 degree horn....it will get 1 piece grill whole front

 

[Don J Davis]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Nice workmanship Mark!

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

That looks fantastic Mark.

I have been getting some great results with the proto types; I think you guys once you have some good DSP settings will be amazed at how good these things sound.

Here is a side view ... it all just fits.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Thanks guys ! Anticipation is beginning to build

Peter, your build is really rolling nicely. And very encouraging to hear about great proto results.
DSP settings will be very helpful, just as in the HF950 case. Many Thanks!

I hate to lean on you so much, but I used the Q to bandwidth converter that you posted for helping us with your 950 settings.
It seemed straightforward, I'm not entirely sure I used it correctly.
May I post a snapshot of what I got for you to take a quick look at, in the original 90 degree thread ?....don't want to make any confusion on this thread about appropriate settings

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Thanks guys ! Anticipation is beginning to build

Peter, your build is really rolling nicely. And very encouraging to hear about great proto results.
DSP settings will be very helpful, just as in the HF950 case. Many Thanks!

I hate to lean on you so much, but I used the Q to bandwidth converter that you posted for helping us with your 950 settings.
It seemed straightforward, I'm not entirely sure I used it correctly.
May I post a snapshot of what I got for you to take a quick look at, in the original 90 degree thread ?....don't want to make any confusion on this thread about appropriate settings

The tricky bit will be the settings - If you tell me what sort of processor you want to use I will see if I can borrow one and do some suggested settings as a starting point.

To use the calculator you have to work backwards. Its designed to convert Q to BW for the Lake, ... so you take a few guess until the Q you have selected produces the BW for the given gain - see below.

Note: the first filter is a shelving filter - you probably cant adjust the Q on your processor and shelving filters can be defined a couple of different ways - the starting point of the boost or the end point. Provided you get close with this filter I don't think you will have an issue.

I will also do a screen shot of what the EQs look like.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

The tricky bit will be the settings - If you tell me what sort of processor you want to use I will see if I can borrow one and do some suggested settings as a starting point.

To use the calculator you have to work backwards. Its designed to convert Q to BW for the Lake, ... so you take a few guess until the Q you have selected produces the BW for the given gain - see below.

Note: the first filter is a shelving filter - you probably cant adjust the Q on your processor and shelving filters can be defined a couple of different ways - the starting point of the boost or the end point. Provided you get close with this filter I don't think you will have an issue.

I will also do a screen shot of what the EQs look like.

it looks like i was using the converter right...seeding a guess then iterating backwards to match...
Here's what I got ...


And glad you mentioned the shelving filter...you're right, no variable Q with my current gear.... so far the only choice for shelving i see is either 6db/oct or 12db/oct on a dcx2496.

I have two dcx2496, and tried loading the x-overs and filters as per snapshot above.
I couldn't get exact freq, gain, or Q in every case....but pretty dang close always.
Well, at least until I ran out of filters trying to put it all into one dcx for both speakers. I think I can link them and solve that, including making room for subs, so no prob there .....i think.

But I'm trying to figure out something else too.... I have a X-32 compact and just ordered a 4 channel processing amp, qsc pld4.5.
I'm hoping to use the x-32's 6 matrix outs (which allow x-over) to x-over out to a stereo amp for the DIY mids, out to the 4-channel amp for the 4594s, and of course out to subs.
This way, 3 way x-over duty would be handled by the x-32, along with eq filtering for the mids. And the final 4th way crossover (and eq) for the HF and VHF coaxial drivers would be handled by the 4-channel amp.
Eliminates the dcx2496s....... may be too complicated but I'd love to have as few pieces of gear involved as possible.

The only real issue with the setup I know so far, is the matrix outs on the x-32 allow 6 filters, but a x-over at either end eats up 2 filters. So I have to figure out if a matrix out can be looped back through a mix bus to gain filters, before finally exiting an output. Not sure here...don't really know the desk very well...

Thanks for your offer to help set up...if you think I should just go with a pair of linked dcx2496, pls let me know

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

FWIW I found a short video someone made of one of the shows using the DIYs - It was made with a couple of digital cameras and a mic. I think we gave the camera / video guy L+R from the desk from the desk, but it looks he just used the mic recording.

EDIT - its the mic recording + plus some of the L+R mixed together.

https://vimeo.com/124487055

 

[Don J Davis]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Peter, sounds really good even on my crummy PC speakers. Looks like it was a pretty good event as well. Can't wait to get mine up and running.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Very nice, very clean sound, Peter.
About to start painting...inching closer....
Your box measurements you passed on to Don have proven good and true....thank you very much for sharing your design.....

 

[Peter Morris]

Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi

Very nice, very clean sound, Peter.
About to start painting...inching closer....
Your box measurements you passed on to Don have proven good and true....thank you very much for sharing your design.....

I did my first a mix on the DIY’s this Saturday. I was told it was a corporate gig, but it turned out to be about 1000 – 1500 Uni law students trying to get drunk by 9:30pm, after which it went downhill rapidly.

I must say I was grateful I took the DIYs, what I normally take to these “corporate gigs” would not have had any chance at providing the SPL needed.

One of the first things you notice is, how clear and clean the sound is. Even if the vocals are soft you can still hear them easily in the mix. There is perfect separation between every instrument. The sound has huge impact and is very “tight” but still goes low.

The next night we used them on an EDM show. As suspected 1 xDIY will keep up with 2 x high powered double 18’s.

I have posed a couple of pictures – Saturday night, the iPhone (overloaded) trying to measure the SPL at the back of the dance floor; and the double 18 stack for Sunday. (Note: the speaker pole extends into the sub but also has 3 legs to make it more stable)

… and slowly getting there with the 60 degree box.