Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Looks great Mark! Can't wait to hear your report on testing and using them.
Looks great Mark! Can't wait to hear your report on testing and using them.
60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60
- Thread starter Peter Morris
- Start date
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
The HF950 is $122 from Parts Express and the 12nld76 is $187 plus shipping from USSpeaker. I am going to be right around $1300 with Duratex, grills, handles, etc...
The HF950 is $122 from Parts Express and the 12nld76 is $187 plus shipping from USSpeaker. I am going to be right around $1300 with Duratex, grills, handles, etc...
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Thanks all.
I just think its a good idea to give the approximate price to would-be builders out there. Since it sounds like this box would compete with the KF650 market, it's nice to know what you are getting into if you want to invest.
Many people are using 212's or 15" 3-ways right now and want to step up their game. It sounds like this would do it for pretty much even money. Its also nice to have the choice of pattern. I could see building 4 60* and 2 90* boxes and that would get you through a lot of gigs!
Thanks all.
I just think its a good idea to give the approximate price to would-be builders out there. Since it sounds like this box would compete with the KF650 market, it's nice to know what you are getting into if you want to invest.
Many people are using 212's or 15" 3-ways right now and want to step up their game. It sounds like this would do it for pretty much even money. Its also nice to have the choice of pattern. I could see building 4 60* and 2 90* boxes and that would get you through a lot of gigs!
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
I also wonder how good these could sound using the new QSC 4 channel DSP amps. Channels 1+2 for the 12"s and 3 and 4 biamp the 4594. That could be a potent combination I think for a lounge-level provider.
I also wonder how good these could sound using the new QSC 4 channel DSP amps. Channels 1+2 for the 12"s and 3 and 4 biamp the 4594. That could be a potent combination I think for a lounge-level provider.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
I have a pld 4.5 on order for just that purpose/ configuration. Supposedly comes in end of month...
I have a pld 4.5 on order for just that purpose/ configuration. Supposedly comes in end of month...
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
so, which one is the preferred 12" for the 90 degree version: B&C or RCF (I need to buy both...:blush
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Both work fine for either box - the RCF sims a little better, the B&C is cheaper.
so, which one is the preferred 12" for the 90 degree version: B&C or RCF (I need to buy both...:blush
Both work fine for either box - the RCF sims a little better, the B&C is cheaper.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Peter...WOW!!!!
OK, don't have the 4594HE's yet, but decided to see if the weathered 4594 loaner I've been using to make sure things fit, would by any chance still run.
So, my processing for this 'what the heck trial' consisted of a slider and amp for the passive fed coax, a slider and amp for the 12" mids, and of course a slider and amp for a sub. (X'ed-over @ 100 and 700 via X-32.)
Move sliders to taste hahaha....no eq....
Amazing just at that....YIKES what clarity and power!
In the living room, the box ran past the first Orbit Shifter as I got more confident with increasing level....
....powered up second orbit shifter. Risky indoors....kitchen counter emptied...bottle of wine, pots and pans, all hit the floor without me hearing them :blush:
And lord did the DIY just keep singing !
And it just gets better from here? with the HE and tuning ?!?
Clarity is already stunning...
I'm thinking I'm gonna need some more Labhorns outdoors :lol:
WOW Peter....
3TX on right of DIY..
Peter...WOW!!!!
OK, don't have the 4594HE's yet, but decided to see if the weathered 4594 loaner I've been using to make sure things fit, would by any chance still run.
So, my processing for this 'what the heck trial' consisted of a slider and amp for the passive fed coax, a slider and amp for the 12" mids, and of course a slider and amp for a sub. (X'ed-over @ 100 and 700 via X-32.)
Move sliders to taste hahaha....no eq....
Amazing just at that....YIKES what clarity and power!
In the living room, the box ran past the first Orbit Shifter as I got more confident with increasing level....
....powered up second orbit shifter. Risky indoors....kitchen counter emptied...bottle of wine, pots and pans, all hit the floor without me hearing them :blush:
And lord did the DIY just keep singing !
And it just gets better from here? with the HE and tuning ?!?
Clarity is already stunning...
I'm thinking I'm gonna need some more Labhorns outdoors :lol:
WOW Peter....
3TX on right of DIY..
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Mark,
I must confess I have quietly been hoping you would have that reaction when you fired them up J
Last night we did a show for an Italian Club for about 600 –700 people … very different from last week’s EDM show !
After the show there was a bunch of sound guys and musicians (including David below) trying to work out what brand the DIYs were. This happens every time we take them out … and once again more or less no front house EQ.
This was one of the singers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WenXrVDXcLw
Here is a clip the club posted on their face book page this morning. I saw someone with a video camera but we did not give them a line out so the clip is just off the camera mic in a quite reverberant hall.
https://www.facebook.com/campania.clubsa/videos/899630123436938/?video_source=pages_finch_main_video
Hi Mark,
I must confess I have quietly been hoping you would have that reaction when you fired them up J
Last night we did a show for an Italian Club for about 600 –700 people … very different from last week’s EDM show !
After the show there was a bunch of sound guys and musicians (including David below) trying to work out what brand the DIYs were. This happens every time we take them out … and once again more or less no front house EQ.
This was one of the singers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WenXrVDXcLw
Here is a clip the club posted on their face book page this morning. I saw someone with a video camera but we did not give them a line out so the clip is just off the camera mic in a quite reverberant hall.
https://www.facebook.com/campania.clubsa/videos/899630123436938/?video_source=pages_finch_main_video
Attachments
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Peter, I was able to get the 60 degs out for testing and tuning Saturday. I too was a little anxious on what the results would be.
Per your suggestion the box being tested was 4 meters up with the mic 2 meters out using pink noise and Smaart7 and a driverack 480.
I used your basic x-over points plus 4 filters on the mids, 2 on the HF and 1 on the VHF.
Attached is the TF and phase trace after tuning. I wasn't able to spend as much time as I would like fine tuning but was pretty happy with the results.
There is a dip at about 500hz that is either a box anomaly or ground reflection since it was present in both boxes and unaffected by any processing. I noticed the corresponding dip in the phase trace but I'm not that good at Smaart to interpret what it means. I'd love to hear feedback on the plots, I know they can be better.
My initial observations are this box gets loud and sounds good doing so. I was please with how well the highs held up even a long way from the speaker. I'll post a quick phone video I did in another post.
I was hearing details in mp4s I hadn't heard before. The 60 deg horn falls off very quickly off axis so for one a side I will use the HF950's once I get them. I later added 2 SRX718 subs and they couldn't keep up with one box. Two double 18's per your previous post would be about right.
With your excellent design, a lounge level guy like me was able to get what I feel are really good results and a great sounding box. The next big test will be at a live gig.
Peter, I was able to get the 60 degs out for testing and tuning Saturday. I too was a little anxious on what the results would be.
Per your suggestion the box being tested was 4 meters up with the mic 2 meters out using pink noise and Smaart7 and a driverack 480.
I used your basic x-over points plus 4 filters on the mids, 2 on the HF and 1 on the VHF.
Attached is the TF and phase trace after tuning. I wasn't able to spend as much time as I would like fine tuning but was pretty happy with the results.
There is a dip at about 500hz that is either a box anomaly or ground reflection since it was present in both boxes and unaffected by any processing. I noticed the corresponding dip in the phase trace but I'm not that good at Smaart to interpret what it means. I'd love to hear feedback on the plots, I know they can be better.
My initial observations are this box gets loud and sounds good doing so. I was please with how well the highs held up even a long way from the speaker. I'll post a quick phone video I did in another post.
I was hearing details in mp4s I hadn't heard before. The 60 deg horn falls off very quickly off axis so for one a side I will use the HF950's once I get them. I later added 2 SRX718 subs and they couldn't keep up with one box. Two double 18's per your previous post would be about right.
With your excellent design, a lounge level guy like me was able to get what I feel are really good results and a great sounding box. The next big test will be at a live gig.
Attachments
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Here is the link to the video from my phone, you can see the speaker back by the trees just above the bed of the pick up truck. The clarity out at this distance was pretty impressive.
Nothing scientific.
http://youtu.be/j5oe1CGkwRI
Here is the link to the video from my phone, you can see the speaker back by the trees just above the bed of the pick up truck. The clarity out at this distance was pretty impressive.
Nothing scientific.
http://youtu.be/j5oe1CGkwRI
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Looking really good .... +/- 2 dB 80Hz - 20KHz except for that bit around 500Hz that we will fix.~~:smile:
I suspect after a bit of tweaking you will get +/- 1.5 dB 100Hz to 20KHz, exactly as my original specification in my first post.
I think the delay between the 12s and horn is not quite correct - you need to add some more delay to the HF and the same amount to the VHF. There should be no dip in the SPL or phase trace.
There are two things that determine the delay you need -
· the different path lengths between the HF driver and the 12” horn
· and the different phase response of the LF and HF horns
I have not done any IIR settings for the 60 degree horn, but I suspect it will have quite a different phase response to the 90 degree HF950. I'm painting my boxes at the moment and as soon as I have a chance I will do some IIR settings for the 60 degree version.
One trick is to lower the crossover frequency to say 300Hz and look at the HF section only. If there are any peaks even below the normal crossover frequency (700Hz) you need to EQ them out. Then put the crossover back to 700Hz.
You can also do the same with the 12 by increasing the crossover to around 2KHz and EQ the peaks out and go back to 700Hz.
Then you just need to get the time alignment correct so the phase traces of the LF section and the HF section overlay each other. You should use the exact same mic position and time offset in Smaart.
What you will find with this box because it behaves so well, any small changes will make avery noticeable difference.
Also looking at the plot you may need a little more gain on the 12"drivers or boost in the low end ... 80Hz. It’s tricky to get the gain of the 12” and horn correct when you are measuring close to the box. I tend to look at what Smaart / Systune is telling me as well as having a good listen and adjust to taste.
Yes the pattern of the 60 degree box is very tight. I think it will be excellent where you need a tight defined pattern or you want to use a pair of boxes each side for 100 to 120 degrees of coverage. In comparison the RCF HF950 has a very wide pattern.
Looking really good .... +/- 2 dB 80Hz - 20KHz except for that bit around 500Hz that we will fix.
~~:smile:I suspect after a bit of tweaking you will get +/- 1.5 dB 100Hz to 20KHz, exactly as my original specification in my first post.
I think the delay between the 12s and horn is not quite correct - you need to add some more delay to the HF and the same amount to the VHF. There should be no dip in the SPL or phase trace.
There are two things that determine the delay you need -
· the different path lengths between the HF driver and the 12” horn
· and the different phase response of the LF and HF horns
I have not done any IIR settings for the 60 degree horn, but I suspect it will have quite a different phase response to the 90 degree HF950. I'm painting my boxes at the moment and as soon as I have a chance I will do some IIR settings for the 60 degree version.
One trick is to lower the crossover frequency to say 300Hz and look at the HF section only. If there are any peaks even below the normal crossover frequency (700Hz) you need to EQ them out. Then put the crossover back to 700Hz.
You can also do the same with the 12 by increasing the crossover to around 2KHz and EQ the peaks out and go back to 700Hz.
Then you just need to get the time alignment correct so the phase traces of the LF section and the HF section overlay each other. You should use the exact same mic position and time offset in Smaart.
What you will find with this box because it behaves so well, any small changes will make avery noticeable difference.
Also looking at the plot you may need a little more gain on the 12"drivers or boost in the low end ... 80Hz. It’s tricky to get the gain of the 12” and horn correct when you are measuring close to the box. I tend to look at what Smaart / Systune is telling me as well as having a good listen and adjust to taste.
Yes the pattern of the 60 degree box is very tight. I think it will be excellent where you need a tight defined pattern or you want to use a pair of boxes each side for 100 to 120 degrees of coverage. In comparison the RCF HF950 has a very wide pattern.
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Nice work guys. I'm excited to get started on this, all of my drivers showed up today.
I have a question though that I think I already know the answer to, but I will ask anyway. I will be using 18mm Baltic ply for my build, and I'm curious what adjustments those of you have made for the increase in thickness? If I try to maintain the internal volume of the inner box, then the mid horn volume will be reduced. If I keep the external volume of the inner box, then the volume of the mid chamber will be reduced. I'm sure either way 1-1.5 mm will make little difference, and the answer is it doesn't matter, but what have you guys done?
Thanks,
Brandon
Nice work guys. I'm excited to get started on this, all of my drivers showed up today.
I have a question though that I think I already know the answer to, but I will ask anyway. I will be using 18mm Baltic ply for my build, and I'm curious what adjustments those of you have made for the increase in thickness? If I try to maintain the internal volume of the inner box, then the mid horn volume will be reduced. If I keep the external volume of the inner box, then the volume of the mid chamber will be reduced. I'm sure either way 1-1.5 mm will make little difference, and the answer is it doesn't matter, but what have you guys done?
Thanks,
Brandon
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Brandon - The problem is getting the clearance between the compression driver and the speaker frames - its very close. I don't think it will make much difference either way provided you can still get the internal clearance for the drivers.
Hi Brandon - The problem is getting the clearance between the compression driver and the speaker frames - its very close. I don't think it will make much difference either way provided you can still get the internal clearance for the drivers.
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Don, really glad to see things have come together for you and you are already testing ! I have 3 days of Smaart training early next month and hope to learn enough to join the testing/tuning party.
Peter, thx for ongoing tuning/alignment comments..!
I got the HE's into both boxes and was able to do a fair amount of listening over the weekend. But mostly indoors due to alot of rain.....
I have been listening to uncompressed music, and also hearing things I haven't heard before.
The things I'm hearing seem to be beyond simple differences in freq response between speakers. Things like warbling or tonal modulation, that I have not heard in songs before. Really cool.
The other thing I'm liking is the low mid guts the boxes have. I'm feeling vibrations, and hearing household resonances, that are above subwoofer range, MUCH stronger than I'm used to experiencing.
During the one brief spurt I did get them outdoors, there was excessive wind and boat noise to overcome, for any real evaluation.
A 20 amp breaker that was dedicated solely to 2 bridged plx3402's powering a pair of orbit shifters, popped trying to keep up with DIYs.
I think a pair of DIYs will make a pretty good match for 4 labhorns...looking forward to trying that.....
Brandon, I used 18mm BB for what I call the inner shell (the MF baffle boards, MF horn fold, and 4594 baffle), and 15mm BB for the exterior box and braces.
I kept the inside shell width per Don's 90 degree drawing for the important reason Peter said, and then kept the MF horn path dimensions the same as the 90 deg drawings.
So as you mentioned, just a mm or two here or there...more a matter of PIA adjustments than anything...
So this box measures very close to the original HF950 plans. It came in at 77lbs without grill or pole mount.....this is about the only thing I don't like so far.
FWIW, I would not use 18mm BB again for any part. I would use 15mm for the entire box, or probably even try using 15mm for the inner shell, and 12mm for the box. I get the latter would cut almost 10lbs off.
Don, really glad to see things have come together for you and you are already testing ! I have 3 days of Smaart training early next month and hope to learn enough to join the testing/tuning party.
Peter, thx for ongoing tuning/alignment comments..!
I got the HE's into both boxes and was able to do a fair amount of listening over the weekend. But mostly indoors due to alot of rain.....
I have been listening to uncompressed music, and also hearing things I haven't heard before.
The things I'm hearing seem to be beyond simple differences in freq response between speakers. Things like warbling or tonal modulation, that I have not heard in songs before. Really cool.
The other thing I'm liking is the low mid guts the boxes have. I'm feeling vibrations, and hearing household resonances, that are above subwoofer range, MUCH stronger than I'm used to experiencing.
During the one brief spurt I did get them outdoors, there was excessive wind and boat noise to overcome, for any real evaluation.
A 20 amp breaker that was dedicated solely to 2 bridged plx3402's powering a pair of orbit shifters, popped trying to keep up with DIYs.
I think a pair of DIYs will make a pretty good match for 4 labhorns...looking forward to trying that.....
Brandon, I used 18mm BB for what I call the inner shell (the MF baffle boards, MF horn fold, and 4594 baffle), and 15mm BB for the exterior box and braces.
I kept the inside shell width per Don's 90 degree drawing for the important reason Peter said, and then kept the MF horn path dimensions the same as the 90 deg drawings.
So as you mentioned, just a mm or two here or there...more a matter of PIA adjustments than anything...
So this box measures very close to the original HF950 plans. It came in at 77lbs without grill or pole mount.....this is about the only thing I don't like so far.
FWIW, I would not use 18mm BB again for any part. I would use 15mm for the entire box, or probably even try using 15mm for the inner shell, and 12mm for the box. I get the latter would cut almost 10lbs off.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
sorry for double post - I have huge problems posting on this board, there are some strange issues in cyber space between the US and OZ :?~:-?~:???:.
sorry for double post - I have huge problems posting on this board, there are some strange issues in cyber space between the US and OZ :?~:-?~:???:.
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Mark,
Sorry about the weight :?~:-?~:???:– Using 16mm ply my new boxes came in at 34 Kgs or 75lbs with fly track and a pole mount.:razz:
Despite that there is nothing on the market that I’m aware, irrespective of price, that can make that much SPL, sound that good and weigh so little. The idea was to push the boundaries of a pole mountable speaker to the limit, to provide the SPL you would get out of something like an EAW KF850 but on a stick. Accordingly the DIY is about as big and as heavy as I think youcan reasonably get away with for a pole mount.
FWIW I think I saved a little weight cutting the back corner of the box at 40 degrees and replacing the angled section with some 12mm ply.
This is what I said earlier somewhere …
“The things I don’t like about thedesign;
· At 34 Kgs it’s a little difficult to lift onto the“stick”
· Having the horn located in the middle of the box solves a lot of acoustic problems but you need to lift the box a little higher.”
Hi Mark,
Sorry about the weight :?~:-?~:???:– Using 16mm ply my new boxes came in at 34 Kgs or 75lbs with fly track and a pole mount.:razz:
Despite that there is nothing on the market that I’m aware, irrespective of price, that can make that much SPL, sound that good and weigh so little. The idea was to push the boundaries of a pole mountable speaker to the limit, to provide the SPL you would get out of something like an EAW KF850 but on a stick. Accordingly the DIY is about as big and as heavy as I think youcan reasonably get away with for a pole mount.
FWIW I think I saved a little weight cutting the back corner of the box at 40 degrees and replacing the angled section with some 12mm ply.
This is what I said earlier somewhere …
“The things I don’t like about thedesign;
· At 34 Kgs it’s a little difficult to lift onto the“stick”
· Having the horn located in the middle of the box solves a lot of acoustic problems but you need to lift the box a little higher.”
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Peter, Yes, you provided great disclosure about the design goal and weight from the gitgo. And I share your thoughts that the DIY is optimized for such, and succeeds!
Please don't think I was bitching about the weight.... I've known very closely where it would end up.
I was really just saying I don't like my decision to use 18mm BB for the inner shell....I knew it added 3-4 lbs vs 15mm, but did it anyway thinking I'd come in at 73lbs.
But I never added in the weight of corner rounding fills and waay too many inserts, t-nuts, and bolts making the interchangeable horn thing work...living in denial that all these little pieces of weight wouldn't add up ...hahaha.
If I build some more...good chance~~:smile:...I think I'll go the 15mm shell, 12mm box, baltic birch route. I get that will shave almost a full 10lbs...
Hi Peter, Yes, you provided great disclosure about the design goal and weight from the gitgo. And I share your thoughts that the DIY is optimized for such, and succeeds!
Please don't think I was bitching about the weight.... I've known very closely where it would end up.
I was really just saying I don't like my decision to use 18mm BB for the inner shell....I knew it added 3-4 lbs vs 15mm, but did it anyway thinking I'd come in at 73lbs.
But I never added in the weight of corner rounding fills and waay too many inserts, t-nuts, and bolts making the interchangeable horn thing work...living in denial that all these little pieces of weight wouldn't add up ...hahaha.
If I build some more...good chance
~~:smile:...I think I'll go the 15mm shell, 12mm box, baltic birch route. I get that will shave almost a full 10lbs...Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Peter,
Thanks for all your input. I was amazed at exactly this, a slight change in EQ, etc made a big difference in the sound, much more so than other boxes I have worked with. I can only imagine how good they must sound with the FIR processing.
Next opportunity I have to get them out I will make the changes and dial in the mid-HF section plus spend a little more time in the details.
I believe 2 a side with the 60 deg horns will make an amazing system from what I experienced with mine. Bring lots of subs!
Peter,
Thanks for all your input. I was amazed at exactly this, a slight change in EQ, etc made a big difference in the sound, much more so than other boxes I have worked with. I can only imagine how good they must sound with the FIR processing.
Next opportunity I have to get them out I will make the changes and dial in the mid-HF section plus spend a little more time in the details.
I believe 2 a side with the 60 deg horns will make an amazing system from what I experienced with mine. Bring lots of subs!
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Mark,
You'll get a lot out of the Smaart class. I took it last year. Jamie Anderson was great.
Here is an older post I found that is a really good lesson on understanding traces. https://soundforums.net/threads/2474-Virtual-SMAART-training-Tell-the-crossover-frequency-and-type
I really have a lot to learn.
For the weight, yes it would be great to lose about 10 lbs. With a step ladder I am able to get the box on the crank stand myself but I'm at the limit of what I'm comfortable with. With 2 people its not too bad. I'm adding the grills and paint this week and will weigh them. I'm guessing they'll come at 77# plus. For comparison, a JBL SRX722 weighs 76#. Down the road I may try and build a lighter pair.
Mark,
You'll get a lot out of the Smaart class. I took it last year. Jamie Anderson was great.
Here is an older post I found that is a really good lesson on understanding traces. https://soundforums.net/threads/2474-Virtual-SMAART-training-Tell-the-crossover-frequency-and-type
I really have a lot to learn.
For the weight, yes it would be great to lose about 10 lbs. With a step ladder I am able to get the box on the crank stand myself but I'm at the limit of what I'm comfortable with. With 2 people its not too bad. I'm adding the grills and paint this week and will weigh them. I'm guessing they'll come at 77# plus. For comparison, a JBL SRX722 weighs 76#. Down the road I may try and build a lighter pair.