60 Degree DIY Mid Hi - AKA PM60
- Thread starter Peter Morris
- Start date
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Sounds like excellent results Peter! I'm finishing up the construction and will be painting next week. I'm starting to consider how I'll be processing and powering the cabs. I plan on using a Driverack 480 and start with the IIR settings you posted earlier. As always, any suggestions are always appreciated.
I plan to use two amps per cab, once channel for VHF, one for HF and one each for the 12's. I have a large quantity of old Crest 7001's laying around unused so I thought I'd start with those and upgrade later when possible. I have ordered some 13/8 cable and all the needed NL8 ends and such. I'm really looking forward to putting these into use.
Keep the updates coming!
Sounds like excellent results Peter! I'm finishing up the construction and will be painting next week. I'm starting to consider how I'll be processing and powering the cabs. I plan on using a Driverack 480 and start with the IIR settings you posted earlier. As always, any suggestions are always appreciated.
I plan to use two amps per cab, once channel for VHF, one for HF and one each for the 12's. I have a large quantity of old Crest 7001's laying around unused so I thought I'd start with those and upgrade later when possible. I have ordered some 13/8 cable and all the needed NL8 ends and such. I'm really looking forward to putting these into use.
Keep the updates coming!
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Don,
As soon as I have completed the 60 degree version I will do some DSP settings for it.
It took me a while to work out the best way to do this. You need to hang the box about 4 metres in the air and measure about 2 metres in front of it.
If you measure it too close to a boundary (the ground) you will get LF boost, phase cancellation and flat will sound wrong.
Everyone's mids may be slightly different - slightly different horn length or driver, so depending on what combination you have the mid PEQ's will need to be slightly different and the time delay on the HF will need to change to suit the mid horn length and HF horn type ( the 1464 is deeper than the 950)
Hi Don,
As soon as I have completed the 60 degree version I will do some DSP settings for it.
It took me a while to work out the best way to do this. You need to hang the box about 4 metres in the air and measure about 2 metres in front of it.
If you measure it too close to a boundary (the ground) you will get LF boost, phase cancellation and flat will sound wrong.
Everyone's mids may be slightly different - slightly different horn length or driver, so depending on what combination you have the mid PEQ's will need to be slightly different and the time delay on the HF will need to change to suit the mid horn length and HF horn type ( the 1464 is deeper than the 950)
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
First test
~~:smile:
The 60 degree version is exactly that - it drops of rapidly outside of the pattern.
First test
~~:smile:The 60 degree version is exactly that - it drops of rapidly outside of the pattern.
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Wow is right! I might have to change my mind about building some! Nice work Peter!
Jeff
First test
The 60 degree version is exactly that - it drops of rapidly outside of the pattern.
Wow is right! I might have to change my mind about building some! Nice work Peter!
Jeff
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
I didn't have time yesterday - it started to rain and that was the end testing. When I have a moment I will see what I can do.
The 90 degree version is quite good especially on the horizontal axis (with Lake processing). It will make a good looking square wave on and off both the vertical and horizontal axis.
I didn't have time yesterday - it started to rain and that was the end testing. When I have a moment I will see what I can do.
The 90 degree version is quite good especially on the horizontal axis (with Lake processing). It will make a good looking square wave on and off both the vertical and horizontal axis.
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Here are some preliminary off axis plots with a 700Hz crossover. I went well beyond the nominal pattern of the box to see where things would fall apart - it was a bit windy and it made getting a good coherence a little difficult.
1) - 0 degrees to about 50 degree off axis in roughly equal increments
2) - 0 degrees to about 40 degree off axis in roughly equal increments
3) - 700Hz Vs 500Hz crossover - magenta line 500Hz, green 700Hz, the orange plot is zero degrees reference.
There is an issue around 1K2 where the vertical response gets a bit wide, but there is nothing I can do about it unless a much taller HF horn flare is used. The area between 500 to 900Hz can be improved by lowering the crossover to around 500Hz. The HF driver will happily operate there but I'm not sure how hard it will be able to be driven ... still work in progress ... maybe 600Hz with the 60 degree version will be the optimum ????
Here are some preliminary off axis plots with a 700Hz crossover. I went well beyond the nominal pattern of the box to see where things would fall apart - it was a bit windy and it made getting a good coherence a little difficult.
1) - 0 degrees to about 50 degree off axis in roughly equal increments
2) - 0 degrees to about 40 degree off axis in roughly equal increments
3) - 700Hz Vs 500Hz crossover - magenta line 500Hz, green 700Hz, the orange plot is zero degrees reference.
There is an issue around 1K2 where the vertical response gets a bit wide, but there is nothing I can do about it unless a much taller HF horn flare is used. The area between 500 to 900Hz can be improved by lowering the crossover to around 500Hz. The HF driver will happily operate there but I'm not sure how hard it will be able to be driven ... still work in progress ... maybe 600Hz with the 60 degree version will be the optimum ????
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Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Alright Peter, with results like you're showing, you sure know how to make a guy feel good about building these!!!
Very nice.
4594HE's are due in late this week. Thanks Jack !
Ready for them!
I put a switch in to use the passive x-over or biamp the coaxial..
The two versions....
Many thanks as always ....Mark
Alright Peter, with results like you're showing, you sure know how to make a guy feel good about building these!!!
Very nice.
4594HE's are due in late this week. Thanks Jack !
Ready for them!
I put a switch in to use the passive x-over or biamp the coaxial..
The two versions....
Many thanks as always ....Mark
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Maybe its been said and I missed it, but whats the approximate cost for these? In USD?
Maybe its been said and I missed it, but whats the approximate cost for these? In USD?
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Mark,
They look great~~:smile:
Since my last post I have done a bit more work on the settings and flatten the phase response a little more. I have also loaded up another box with drivers and had a listen to the 60 degree version.
First impressions - I think it sounds better than the 90 degree version as expected. They both sound stunning but the depth and detail in the stereo image of the 60 degree box is better. They sound quite amazing - I have never heard a PA speaker sound that good, only high end stereo and studio monitors. Its also a little louder than the 90 degree version because of the greater efficiency of the HF horn.
.... and also a +1 for Jack.
Hi Mark,
They look great
~~:smile:Since my last post I have done a bit more work on the settings and flatten the phase response a little more. I have also loaded up another box with drivers and had a listen to the 60 degree version.
First impressions - I think it sounds better than the 90 degree version as expected. They both sound stunning but the depth and detail in the stereo image of the 60 degree box is better. They sound quite amazing - I have never heard a PA speaker sound that good, only high end stereo and studio monitors. Its also a little louder than the 90 degree version because of the greater efficiency of the HF horn.
.... and also a +1 for Jack.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Doesn't really help. All I know is that the discount price is somewhere between 550 and 650 per 4594.
I'm looking for a ballpark here on what it takes to build a set. Minus labor.
1200ish a box? Thats what I'm feeling, but I have no idea what the parts cost.
Doesn't really help. All I know is that the discount price is somewhere between 550 and 650 per 4594.
I'm looking for a ballpark here on what it takes to build a set. Minus labor.
1200ish a box? Thats what I'm feeling, but I have no idea what the parts cost.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Find your best price you can on the drivers and then add in the cost of the CD. So 1200ish could be one cost while 1000 or less could be another. 300 per 12 x 2 and the CD. 1150-1250. Or use a lesser expensive 12 and the cost is less.
Find your best price you can on the drivers and then add in the cost of the CD. So 1200ish could be one cost while 1000 or less could be another. 300 per 12 x 2 and the CD. 1150-1250. Or use a lesser expensive 12 and the cost is less.
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
I figured about that much. I don't know why we need to be secretive about the actual build cost of one of these cabs.
Its diy, but its not cheap. We all know that. I honestly don't think anyone interested in this design is expecting fitzmaurice type prices.
I figured about that much. I don't know why we need to be secretive about the actual build cost of one of these cabs.
Its diy, but its not cheap. We all know that. I honestly don't think anyone interested in this design is expecting fitzmaurice type prices.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Sorry Tim, I thought you were asking about the BMS 4594HE's .... I'm in Australia so I'm not sure what your prices are like in the US. I have tried the B&C 12NDL76 in the latest box, its much cheaper than the RCF and so is the standard 4594. The RCF and 18sound horns are quit cheap - I believe most of these components are available from Parts Express or US Speaker Parts. The HF950 is special order I think.
Sorry Tim, I thought you were asking about the BMS 4594HE's .... I'm in Australia so I'm not sure what your prices are like in the US. I have tried the B&C 12NDL76 in the latest box, its much cheaper than the RCF and so is the standard 4594. The RCF and 18sound horns are quit cheap - I believe most of these components are available from Parts Express or US Speaker Parts. The HF950 is special order I think.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Tim, I don't consider myself 'in the know' or on the right side of the price equation, because I'm not in the sound biz. So you may be able to find better prices than me. Having said that, here's what I found.....
Jack is great at trying to get you a price as low in the range as possible....it all seems to come down to do you have the time to let an order build up.
The rcf 12s are hard to find in US. Best was about $280 shipped. I found them in Germany from the place Peter gave a while back.. Thomann. Got 4 for $900 shipped...but you have to checkout with Amazon or shipping costs more for some unknown reason..
The XT1464 horn is easy to get here for $60.
The HF950 90degree horn is nearly unobtainable in US and hard to find overseas. It's not even on US dealer's price lists.
Don somehow wrangled Parts Express into special ordering it...but I don't know the details.
Hope this helped...
Tim, I don't consider myself 'in the know' or on the right side of the price equation, because I'm not in the sound biz. So you may be able to find better prices than me. Having said that, here's what I found.....
Jack is great at trying to get you a price as low in the range as possible....it all seems to come down to do you have the time to let an order build up.
The rcf 12s are hard to find in US. Best was about $280 shipped. I found them in Germany from the place Peter gave a while back.. Thomann. Got 4 for $900 shipped...but you have to checkout with Amazon or shipping costs more for some unknown reason..
The XT1464 horn is easy to get here for $60.
The HF950 90degree horn is nearly unobtainable in US and hard to find overseas. It's not even on US dealer's price lists.
Don somehow wrangled Parts Express into special ordering it...but I don't know the details.
Hope this helped...
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Peter, thx! I may just make them both 60 degree based on what you're saying.
I'm thinking to use the MF dsp settings you gave for the 90 degree version, and wing it from there since I'm starting out with the passive x-over.
What do u think?
Oh, are your new boxes, the one you measured, using the rcf 12s or the b&c ?
Hi Mark,
They look great
Since my last post I have done a bit more work on the settings and flatten the phase response a little more. I have also loaded up another box with drivers and had a listen to the 60 degree version.
First impressions - I think it sounds better than the 90 degree version as expected. They both sound stunning but the depth and detail in the stereo image of the 60 degree box is better. They sound quite amazing - I have never heard a PA speaker sound that good, only high end stereo and studio monitors. Its also a little louder than the 90 degree version because of the greater efficiency of the HF horn.
.... and also a +1 for Jack.
Hi Peter, thx! I may just make them both 60 degree based on what you're saying.
I'm thinking to use the MF dsp settings you gave for the 90 degree version, and wing it from there since I'm starting out with the passive x-over.
What do u think?
Oh, are your new boxes, the one you measured, using the rcf 12s or the b&c ?
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
The new boxes are using the B&C - the improvement is the horn. In simple terms to get a 90 degree pattern you need reduce the 35mm throat down to a 20mm slot and then let it expand out - that's not as nice as the smooth gently expanding throat of the 60 degree horn.
For many applications however, the 90 degree version is more useful.
I have ordered a couple more 4594HE's and some crossovers. I will do some IIR settings for both the 90 and 60 degree box with the crossover.
The new boxes are using the B&C - the improvement is the horn. In simple terms to get a 90 degree pattern you need reduce the 35mm throat down to a 20mm slot and then let it expand out - that's not as nice as the smooth gently expanding throat of the 60 degree horn.
For many applications however, the 90 degree version is more useful.
I have ordered a couple more 4594HE's and some crossovers. I will do some IIR settings for both the 90 and 60 degree box with the crossover.
Re: 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi
Hi Tim,
I went back through all my invoices this morning.
The components for the 60deg version less plywood, screws, glue, paint and grills is just as you guessed right at about $1200.
I got most everything through Parts Express except the 4594HEs. I got those through Jack. Not trying to be secretive but I didn't want to post his prices without his OK.
I can give you a detailed breakdown if you like just shoot me a PM.
The HF950 will add about $50 and the crossover will add another $25 if you go that route.
Currently I use 2 SRX712's per side as tops on a lot of my gigs. I'm hoping to use this box one a side.
Hope that helps.
Hi Tim,
I went back through all my invoices this morning.
The components for the 60deg version less plywood, screws, glue, paint and grills is just as you guessed right at about $1200.
I got most everything through Parts Express except the 4594HEs. I got those through Jack. Not trying to be secretive but I didn't want to post his prices without his OK.
I can give you a detailed breakdown if you like just shoot me a PM.
The HF950 will add about $50 and the crossover will add another $25 if you go that route.
Currently I use 2 SRX712's per side as tops on a lot of my gigs. I'm hoping to use this box one a side.
Hope that helps.