Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear all,

I like to take the opportunity to re-post an article about Reliability, Planned Obsolesence and Economics.


Is Planned Obsolescence Good Business Practice?

I have answered before on the issue and the myth of "planned obsolescence" but it clearly bears repeating here. Even after 25 years of designing and building products I cannot conceive of any good reason to build products that have a limited life-span.

In fact, I don't know how one would do accomplish it, even if they were somehow convinced that it was a good idea (which it isn't).
What would one do? Buy sub-standard parts, purposely use poor design practices or apply some other means? What if the unit broke down during the warranty period? What would be the purpose if the customer decided that they would replace the product with that of another manufacturer?

This does not make any business sense and I flatly reject any such notion for our products. Nothing is more expensive for a Company than a defective product; both from a commercial as well as reputational point of view.

We Focus on Core Competencies

Just after we celebrated our 20th anniversary as a company in 2009, we set about to re-invigorate our organizationand set our sights on the next two decades.

As part of that process we determined that our core strengths (and interest) lay in product design, engineering and manufacturing.
We also discovered that historically we were not particularly good at several areas of our business which included service, support and distribution and so we set about to make fundamental changes across the business.
These changes include a massive investment in after-sale service through our newly-formed CARE group.

In fact, we renamed Service to CARE because it underlines what we believe is the central theme of the department - to Care for our customers. This investment has added some incredible people, the best tools available and new, fully-stocked repair and support facilities across the world.

We opened our own CARE centers in Las Vegas as well as Kidderminster UK where we increased the stock of repair parts nearly five-fold and implemented a new service manual process driven by our Agile PLM system.

MUSIC Group Opens Best-in-Class CARE Centers


The goal has been to ensure that we are there with the requisite support in the event that a product fails.

The Economics of Reliable Products

It is important that I also frame the discussion around the sheer number of products that we produce each year. With annual production volumes hovering around 5 million units, it is very likely that there is a much larger user base of BEHRINGER products in many product categories than other manufacturers' products.

And with that sort of volume, a runaway failure rate would quickly bankrupt our company in warranty claims. But it is precisely in this climate that we have taken the ultimate show of faith by offering a full 3-Year Warranty program in support of our products in users' hands.

Warm regards

Uli
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear Uli and all of MUSIC Group,
You guys are trying hard and my hat is off to all of you. If a product is going to fail we in this forum will accelerate the possibility. It is just the nature of the world we work in. Even the best gear has its failures but we tend to forgive and remain loyal to a brand if they handle the problems quickly and also make the changes needed for any known issues. Everything I have seen you guys handle in this forum has given me the confidence to buy several of the new products. I will be buying several of the NU6000's for our newest monitor rig. Hopefully any bugs will be worked out but at least I carry a back up in the rack if I have an issue (which I do for all amps and power supplys regardless of brand). Honestly folks, the price and a 3 year warranty from a company who is trying to make a name for itself in service won't really let me spend the money any where else in good conscience. Time will tell.
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier


We have since investigated the problem and found the root cause to be a defective diode in the power supply. We received a defective batch of MBRS1100 Schottky diodes made by International Rectifier (IR) which is one of the largest, US-listed semicon companies.

This particular diode was used in the first amp deliveries and we have since reworked all inventory to make sure new shipments are perfectly fine. We will certainly rework all products in the field to make sure you have a great customer experience.

Warm regards

Uli
Hi Uli,

How can I identify if my amps are affected by this bad batch. I'd like to be proactive and have it fixed before it may fail at some concert.

Regards,
/--robert
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear David,

this is indeed unfortunate and we apologize for the trouble.

We have since investigated the problem and found the root cause to be a defective diode in the power supply. We received a defective batch of MBRS1100 Schottky diodes made by International Rectifier (IR) which is one of the largest, US-listed semicon companies.

This particular diode was used in the first amp deliveries and we have since reworked all inventory to make sure new shipments are perfectly fine. We will certainly rework all products in the field to make sure you have a great customer experience.

Unfortunately, these things happen - even with parts from most reputable suppliers such as IR.

No matter what, we will get this right.

The iNuke amps are some of our most successful products and have proven to be very reliable. We have heavily invested in the design of this technology and are about to release a new 12,000 Watt version.

Like all our products, they are covered by our 3-Year Warranty program.

Warm regards

Uli

To back up what Uli is saying here , I'm a Snr electronics engineer with a major multinational manufacturing company who's number one priority is quality due to the market we produce for.

We only use components from the worlds top manufacturers , we sample inspect the parts before we fit them, our equipment tests the components as they are being fitted, we X-ray the finished product, we optically inspect the product (manually and automatically), we in circuit test the product, we functionally test the product , we HASS the product (highly accelerated stress screening) etc etc etc etc.

Do we have field failures , yes !

Every manufacturer has defects, its how hard the company tries to catch them at the factory and how it deals with them if they fail in the field that make one manufacturer stand out from the others.

Reworking WIP and inventory is one good step, another would be to publish product alerts , you will no doubt know the serial number or date range of the product effected , so you could be proactive and publish this info so that users can have these parts replaced before they fail at the worst possible time .

Kev
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Sorry to here this, but at the price they go for did you think they would really last? They still under warrenty?

Did you read this? Start on page 1 though.

Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 3


Yes, still under warranty, and yes I still expect them to last irrespective of price, I have other old, low cost amps which have done a great job for many years including a couple from Behringer.

Thanks for the link, too technical for me, this is how I see it.
1) The Inuke 6000 has sufficient power for the work we are using them for.
2) It is the coolest running amp I have ever known, even driven hard it does not get hot.
3) They are the lightest amps I have owned given the power.
4) So for me the missing (and most important) RELIABILITY.

If reliability is sorted then this amp we be hard to beat in an awful lot of applications and will win the price/performance war until some one betters it.

Do I believe Behringer will sort it out? YES.
In my case I just hope it is done quickly.
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear David,

this is indeed unfortunate and we apologize for the trouble.

We have since investigated the problem and found the root cause to be a defective diode in the power supply. We received a defective batch of MBRS1100 Schottky diodes made by International Rectifier (IR) which is one of the largest, US-listed semicon companies.

This particular diode was used in the first amp deliveries and we have since reworked all inventory to make sure new shipments are perfectly fine. We will certainly rework all products in the field to make sure you have a great customer experience.

Unfortunately, these things happen - even with parts from most reputable suppliers such as IR.

No matter what, we will get this right.

The iNuke amps are some of our most successful products and have proven to be very reliable. We have heavily invested in the design of this technology and are about to release a new 12,000 Watt version.

Like all our products, they are covered by our 3-Year Warranty program.

Warm regards

Uli

Hello Uli, many thanks for the personal response, and also thanks for being honest about the issue.

I am impressed with the proactive approach you and you staff are taking, Our other newish Behringer products have been fine, X32, S16's. etc.


I will be happy if these amps are repaired promptly and then become reliable, Will this effect our 15" neo cabs too as we have several pairs, and also could the first failed amp repaired with a device from the bad batch of diodes?

Thanks.
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear David,

this is indeed unfortunate and we apologize for the trouble.

We have since investigated the problem and found the root cause to be a defective diode in the power supply. We received a defective batch of MBRS1100 Schottky diodes made by International Rectifier (IR) which is one of the largest, US-listed semicon companies.

This particular diode was used in the first amp deliveries and we have since reworked all inventory to make sure new shipments are perfectly fine. We will certainly rework all products in the field to make sure you have a great customer experience.

Unfortunately, these things happen - even with parts from most reputable suppliers such as IR.

No matter what, we will get this right.

The iNuke amps are some of our most successful products and have proven to be very reliable. We have heavily invested in the design of this technology and are about to release a new 12,000 Watt version.

Like all our products, they are covered by our 3-Year Warranty program.

Warm regards

Uli

This falls under the category of "stuff happens".. I recall one issue with a new power amp roll-out, where a temperature sensing diode on the heat-sink was flaky. The difficult thing was that the part was a not a new part in the system, but had been used for years with zero problems. Coincidentally the vendor had recently transferred their manufacturing of the component to China. Purchasing and engineering had tested and approved a sample quantity of the new build parts, but full production revealed that they were problematic.

I have seen similar such component failures from a number of big name vendors, some that the readers here will recognize by name, but I see no point in embarrassing them years after the fact. It is the nature of manufacturing that the product using these faulty parts will get the bad reputation for the failures, even though the engineering of these components is typically beyond the purview of the manufacturing company that uses the parts.

I have had some good (lucky?) experiences with catching potential component problems by having quality assurance personnel perform random inspection of incoming raw components. Using statistical methods it doesn't take a very large test sample to identify a bad lot of parts (of course the vendor should be doing this too). With a little good fortune we discovered a problem from a major capacitor company, with all kinds of quality plaques on their wall. The tooling on their swaging machine failed and the foil connection to the capacitor lead was only weakly attached (the majority of parts measured good but the swage was insufficient to be reliable). I discovered the problem when a very small fraction of the small test sample measured near open circuit, and I took them apart to determine why. We had to recall a container of finished goods about to ship overseas but was able to nip this one in the bud, before any product got out into the field. Of course most such problems are not so easy to catch and correct. I recall a different problem with an XLR connector, when the design turned out to be the problem, and it took months for the (very well known major connector company) to get their design corrected and production volume back up to speed. Some of these simple components like a connector can be maddening to get to work flawlessly with the universe of slightly different mating parts.

FWIW quality conscious component vendors will generally bend over backwards to correct such problems, when discovered. While the remedies available are limited. Be thankful that the problem is in a light weight amplifier. The old school heavy iron power amps cost a lot more to ship back and forth to rework.

JR
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Uri, thanks for letting us know the details of this issue! So, would all NU3000's made before the NU6000's were available have the suspect part(s)? Will yous guys be publishing a serial number range of those units that should be "fixed"? I have one of the early NU3000's that's worked fine so far. Anyways here's another chance for yous guys to convince us that there really is a new-and-improved Behringer :) .
 
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Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear all,

we have found no indications that this incident is related to other models than the NU6000.

We are currently looking into tying the defective batch to particular serial numbers. However this will take some time as the vendor is performing an internal investigation and so far cannot tell us yet what exact batch of problematic diodes is affected.

Our Care department has since issued a Service Notice which has been sent to our internal and external service centers together with spare parts.

To Kevin's point, all our products are stress-tested for 100 hours at 1/3 and also full power. These tests are not only part of the standard stress test during the design phase but also built into the production process where random stress tests are performed aside from the 100% Audio Precision performance tests.
We also employ in-circuit tester, automatic optical inspection systems and x-ray screening tests.


However in this case, the diodes in question do not show any obvious defects, but they don't meet vendor specifications. In fact we didn't find any of these problems in production and as customers here can confirm, all amps were fully functional when delivered.

However under certain circumstances, which we now believe relate to spikes in the mains power supply, the diodes are pushed to the upper limits of their specs and break. It is interesting, that we seem to have higher failure rates in Europe and in particular the UK as well as in Australia where mains voltages can reach up to 260 Volts.


Once the problematic diodes are replaced, the amp will perform as expected and our Care Division will now reach out to David to get the other three amps serviced.

Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to perform IQC (Incoming Quality Control) on semiconductors unless you are a semicon manufacturer yourself as you will require extremely complex and expensive testing equipment.
How would you test integrated SMT circuits off-line?

A manufacturer's best bet is always to use first-class semicon brands and this is exactly what the MUSIC Group’s practice has always been. Anything else is a huge risk which we would not take.


If you inspect our products, you will only find components from Analog Devices, TI, NJR, Rohm, Freescale, STM, Samsung, On Semi, IR etc. which are all considered tier-one brands.

I hope this explains the background around this incident.

Warm regards

Uli

 
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Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

I can independantly confirm what Uli is saying is correct . In the very few occassions Ive had to repair behringer equipment the components have indeed been tier one components, the standard of soldering has also been excellent.

I have never had any problems or second thoughts buying behringer products and having recently purchased the X32, S16's , P16D and P16s I will continue to do so.

The fact that you are even discussing this on a forum like this only reinforces your commitment to the customer , and for that I applaud you.

All companies have problems , but not many will discuss them.

This level of commitment is not normal even with some of the worlds tier one manufacturers , an example :

One of the products Im in charge of uses a component manufactured by a company that is considered the best in the world, these components cost $8000 ea !!

During stress testing at my factory I discovered an issue with this component, I contacted the company and they denied that there was a problem.

I then had to spend two months of engineering time and approx £30K proving there was an issue before the company put there hands up. This shut my production line down for 6 months and the supplier had to spend millions rectifying the issue.

The way in which Uli openly discusses these issues to me is first class and goes along way in my books.

So, keep up the good work. You have my support .

Kev
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Here's the problem I still have with Behringer, as far as quality and being dependable goes.

inuke 6000, 8 ohms 1100w, 4 ohms 2100w $400
Crest 9200, 8 ohms 1300w, 4 ohms 2200 w $2000 ish
Crown xti 6002 8 ohms 1200w, 4 ohms 2100w $2000ish
qsc pl 340 , 8 ohm 800w, 4 ohm 1250w, $1500 ish
I won't mention Lab or powersoft.

Uli, my question is how can this be possible that you can build a amp equal in power to all the others listed, for so much less money, yet still be reliable?
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

The main reason for the low price of the NU6000 is that it is actually two bridged NU3000's in one case. Above the 1500w/ch power point cost of a ground-referenced-output amp go up DRAMATICALLY because of the higher rail voltages involved. I'm looking forward to the the NU4-6000 which is the same basic amp but with the option to run the four amp channels independently - awesome for monitors :) .
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

The main reason for the low price of the NU6000 is that it is actually two bridged NU3000's in one case. Above the 1500w/ch power point cost of a ground-referenced-output amp go up DRAMATICALLY because of the higher rail voltages involved. I'm looking forward to the the NU4-6000 which is the same basic amp but with the option to run the four amp channels independently - awesome for monitors :) .

$300 dollar amp versus $1000+ amps that do the same output from crest, crown, qsc. So how did a 3000 Inuke keep the price so low with same output as the others?
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Here's the problem I still have with Behringer, as far as quality and being dependable goes.

inuke 6000, 8 ohms 1100w, 4 ohms 2100w $400
Crest 9200, 8 ohms 1300w, 4 ohms 2200 w $2000 ish
Crown xti 6002 8 ohms 1200w, 4 ohms 2100w $2000ish
qsc pl 340 , 8 ohm 800w, 4 ohm 1250w, $1500 ish
I won't mention Lab or powersoft.

Uli, my question is how can this be possible that you can build a amp equal in power to all the others listed, for so much less money, yet still be reliable?

For your question to make sense, namely that there is a simple linear relationship between reliability, power, and cost, all other factors would need to be constants. All the amplifiers would need to use the same technology, and be manufactured by companies with the exact same overhead/cost structure.

While I have no specific knowledge of design details the Behringer amp is newer so most likely using newer technology than the other amp designs. We have enjoyed huge cost reductions in power amp technology over recent decades, with commensurate improvements in reliability. I see no reason to expect we have seen the end of this progress. One additional benefit of the lower operating temperature from higher efficiency designs is the rough doubling of MTBF for every 10'C reduction in operating temperature.

I have no idea what the reliability of these new Behringer amps will be, that's why we need to wait for reports from users flogging these in the real world. I do know that I can't predict reliability from the price with so many other variables.

If it makes you feel better to pay more, and you need an amp right now you have a nice short list of respected amps with a good track record. Me, I don't need to buy an amp any time soon.. so I think I'll wait until more user reports are in.

JR
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

$300 dollar amp versus $1000+ amps that do the same output from crest, crown, qsc. So how did a 3000 Inuke keep the price so low with same output as the others?
The Peavey and Crest 3000 amps are only a few dollars more than the NU3000 and actually have more power as they are rated RMS vs the NU3000 which is rated Peak (it's more equal to an RMX2450) . I also own an IPR3000 but it isn't (officially) bridgeable and I need the power for my pair of Danley TH-Mini's. Actually my main bitch on the IPR's is that they don't have a 4 wire two channel SpeakOn like the NU's. And on the NU's, they don't have separate crossover selections for the two channels - for subs I need both to be LPF'd and for monitors I need both HPF'd. Of course I could solve that by buying the DSP versions - or the way I did by buying two IPR1600's instead :razz: .

Oh, and that nobody at Behringer knows what happens when you switch the crossover on when the amp is in bridged mode :?~:-?~:???:. It'd be cool if one input was HPF'd and the other LPF'd and then summed together 8)~:cool:~:cool:. If it wasn't winter I'd set up outside and test it out :D~:-D~:grin: .
 
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Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

Dear all,

we have found no indications that this incident is related to other models than the NU6000.

We are currently looking into tying the defective batch to particular serial numbers. However this will take some time as the vendor is performing an internal investigation and so far cannot tell us yet what exact batch of problematic diodes is affected.

Our Care department has since issued a Service Notice which has been sent to our internal and external service centers together with spare parts.

To Kevin's point, all our products are stress-tested for 100 hours at 1/3 and also full power. These tests are not only part of the standard stress test during the design phase but also built into the production process where random stress tests are performed aside from the 100% Audio Precision performance tests.
We also employ in-circuit tester, automatic optical inspection systems and x-ray screening tests.


However in this case, the diodes in question do not show any obvious defects, but they don't meet vendor specifications. In fact we didn't find any of these problems in production and as customers here can confirm, all amps were fully functional when delivered.

However under certain circumstances, which we now believe relate to spikes in the mains power supply, the diodes are pushed to the upper limits of their specs and break. It is interesting, that we seem to have higher failure rates in Europe and in particular the UK as well as in Australia where mains voltages can reach up to 260 Volts.


Once the problematic diodes are replaced, the amp will perform as expected and our Care Division will now reach out to David to get the other three amps serviced.

Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to perform IQC (Incoming Quality Control) on semiconductors unless you are a semicon manufacturer yourself as you will require extremely complex and expensive testing equipment.
How would you test integrated SMT circuits off-line?

A manufacturer's best bet is always to use first-class semicon brands and this is exactly what the MUSIC Group’s practice has always been. Anything else is a huge risk which we would not take.


If you inspect our products, you will only find components from Analog Devices, TI, NJR, Rohm, Freescale, STM, Samsung, On Semi, IR etc. which are all considered tier-one brands.

I hope this explains the background around this incident.

Warm regards

Uli


Dear Uli, I think it's amazing that you follow these forums and continue to respond. Thanks!

I have been researching the NU6000 for some time now and it looks like there is a somewhat limited supply. Several of the largest online vendors in USA seem to routinely run out of them within days each time they list them as in stock. Is this a case of Behringer not keeping up with demand, and if so why, or is it a vendor issue?

FWIW the 3 reasons I do not yet own one: fan noise (minor issue), reliability question (which you have addressed more than ever before), and the 2 times I was ready to do it - they were out of stock.

Also, when for NU4-6000 and NU12000 ?
 
Re: Behringer iNUKE NU6000 amplifier

You've obviously never fired up a rack of Crown MacroTech. :lol:

Well...hmmm.....actually I have. A 3600 and 2 2400s IIRC. It's been a long time. But I don't remember finding them too objectionable. Different pitch maybe? I guess my bad for taking the forum reports about iNuke being "hair dryer" loud as literal. Note to self: verify before commenting.