Listening Get Together

Re: Listening Get Together

Dick Rees said:
Doug....
When you dispute with Ivan, you're arguing with one of the acknowledged top industry professionals in speaker design and knowledge.
When you dispute with Art, you're going up against someone who's been successfully building his own speakers of various designs for possibly longer than you've been drawing breath.
Both Ivan and Art have freely shared their expertise and measurements on this and other professional forums.
You, on the other hand, respond to their statements not with facts, information or measurements, but with personal slights. Shame on you.
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Wrong... I do not and have not questioned their knowledge and expertise.
My responses to them have not been based on the statements they have made, but rather, the rude manner in which they were made.
As I have said several times so far, doubt is to be expected, but there is no need to be rude or disrespectful. If you are, then don't expect a "nice" response from me.

As to the following statement in your post above ("The BigE inventors, Leland, and myself have decided...."), it should be "and I", not "and myself". Thanks for the offer, but if the coffee mug has as many holes in it as the theories you're expounding I'd be concerned about scalding liquids landing in my lap. Neither of them "hold water".
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Thanks for the English lesson. Your loss.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Shane Presley said:
Ha, you bothered to research all this and type it out , yet you can't get some measurements or info from the attendees at your listening party you held 2 days ago.... Too much
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The simple difference is that the list of quotes was just copy and paste, whereas taking measurements would require time, equipment and knowledge.....none of which can be accomplished by copy and paste.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Art Welter said:
Doug,
It is obvious that everybody reading this thread has been "reaching" for simple specifications- frequency response charts, some idea of polar response, sensitivity, power handling, the basic stuff that is totally lacking from BigE loudspeakers.
Art
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and it's also obvious to everyone reading this thread that we are preparing to get those measurements
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Shane Presley said:
Ha, you bothered to research all this and type it out , yet you can't get some measurements or info from the attendees at your listening party you held 2 days ago.... Too much
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I don't know the people who did the measurements.
I have e-mailed and asked for them.
Aside from tracking them down and physically taking it from them, what else do you suggest?
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Leland Crooks said:
GC46 uses 4 proprietary drivers, and a pair of faital HF102's through a horn firing through the center of the cab out the front. MinE25 for home audio uses peerless drivers and a vifa tweeter. The MinE25 for pro audio uses Faital 5FE120's and will probably be upgraded in the models I send out for testing to a pair of the Vifa's. Just for power handling if no other reason.
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Thank you for the clear answer! It helps us all understand your product a lot more as should be the aim of this sort of conversation.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
and see you will
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Doug,

Leland Crooks wrote 9/13/12:
"You will see data in about 6 weeks."

That didn't happen, except for the frequency response of his speaker with the improperly designed crossover.

When are you planning to show some measurements?

You may want to tell whomever is responsible for the "War Ad Slick" that a speaker requiring a 35Hz HP is not an "infrasound device", and 36 volts at one meter is not exactly an industry standard for measurement..

Art
 

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Re: Listening Get Together

Art Welter said:
Doug,
Leland Crooks wrote 9/13/12:
"You will see data in about 6 weeks."
That didn't happen, except for the frequency response of his speaker with the improperly designed crossover.
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Things happen, you know that Art. Delays were certainly not intentional.

When are you planning to show some measurements?
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That is not up to me. Maybe Leland can give an idea of the plans for that.

You may want to tell whomever is responsible for the "War Ad Slick" that a speaker requiring a 35Hz HP is not an "infrasound device", and 36 volts at one meter is not exactly an industry standard for measurement..
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The speaker does not require a high pass at all. It is just recommended.
I don't know about the 36v @ 1 meter that you refer to.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
I don't know the people who did the measurements.
I have e-mailed and asked for them.
Aside from tracking them down and physically taking it from them, what else do you suggest?
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Huh? The only folks who made measurements at the listening event designed to showcase your speakers are folks that you don't know, and with whom you did not make prior arrangements to get their measurement data? You're asking strangers for whatever measurement data they might have acquired when they happened to show up at the event?

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Are you planning on getting measurement data from those strangers (if they are willing to give it to you)? Are you planning on collecting data yourself, at some future date? Enquiring minds want to know.

Mark C.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Mark Cadwallader said:
Huh? The only folks who made measurements at the listening event designed to showcase your speakers are folks that you don't know, and with whom you did not make prior arrangements to get their measurement data? You're asking strangers for whatever measurement data they might have acquired when they happened to show up at the event?
Perhaps I'm missing something here. Are you planning on getting measurement data from those strangers (if they are willing to give it to you)? Are you planning on collecting data yourself, at some future date? Enquiring minds want to know.
Mark C.
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They came with someone that I invited.
They left before I was able to ask for the data.
I contacted them through the person I invited to request the results of their testing.

Leland is currently building the cabs to be sent out for testing.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

The testing did not occur for several reasons. The primary one being that a change in the cabinet design started just after I posted that. A single driver solution for a cab that previously required 2 drivers to create the "vortex". That has since been perfected after much burned plywood. Then a modest change increased output by 3db. It's a product under constant evolution. Who's isnt?

I have stated before in the thread, I am waiting for spring. Testing behind my shop for real numbers is pointless. Testing inside the shop creates artifacts. Learned my lesson, no graphs until I can do it outside. My test area is 20 acres of nothing. Closest house is 1/8 mile away, closest highway is 1/2 mile away, lightly traveled. As soon as it's warm enough and dry enough for me to get down there I'll mow it down and have at it. With appropriate software.

In the meantime the MinE25's will go out to the evaluators here who have volunteered to listen. That's all we ask. 5 minutes is enough.

As far as measurements at the listening GTG, well, it was for listening. Who wants to listen to test tones all afternoon?
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
It wont work??? Crap !!! I guess we'll just scrap everything and quit then. Dangit... I thought it would work.


In his 1842 book The Positive Philosophy, the French philosopher Auguste Comte wrote of the stars: "We can never learn their internal constitution, nor, in regard to some of them, how heat is absorbed by their atmosphere." In a similar vein, he said of the planets: "We can never know anything of their chemical or mineralogical structure; and, much less, that of organized beings living on their surface."


The number of scientists and engineers who confidently stated that heavier-than-air flight was impossible in the run-up to the Wright brothers' flight is too large to count. Lord Kelvin is probably the best-known. In 1895 he stated that "heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible", only to be proved definitively wrong just eight years later.


On 29 December 1934, Albert Einstein was quoted in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette as saying, "There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable.


"Landing and moving about on the moon offers so many serious problems for human beings that it may take science another 200 years to lick them." -- Science Digest, 1948


"Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable tobreathe, would die of asphyxia." -- Dr. Dionysus Lardner, 1793-1859


"What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out oflocomotives travelling twice the speed of stagecoaches?" -- Quarterly Review, 1825


"I can accept the theory of relativity as little as I can accept theexistence of atoms and other such dogmas." -- Ernst Mach (1838-1916)


"X-rays will prove to be a hoax." -- Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895


"Flight by machines heavier than air is impractical and insignificant, ifnot utterly impossible." -- Simon Newcomb, Director, U.S. Naval Observatory, 1902


"The resistance of air increases as the square of the speed and works asthe cube [of speed].... It is clear that with our present devices thereis no hope of aircraft competing for racing speed with either ourlocomotives or automobiles." -- William H. Pickering, Director, Harvard College Observatory, 1910


"As far as sinking a ship with a bomb is concerned, you just can't do it." -- Rear Admiral Clark Woodward, 1939


"Since the 40-inch objective of the Yerkes refractor and the 200-inchmirror of the Palomar reflector have apparently reached the practicalconstruction limits for telescopes of their respective types, it isextremely doubtful if a greater light-gathering eye of either kind willever again be built." -- A. Frederick Collins, 1946


"This foolish idea of shooting at the moon is an example of the absurdlength to which vicious specialization will carry scientists. To escapethe Earth's gravitation a projectile needs a velocity of 7 miles persecond. The thermal energy at this speed is 15,180 calories [per gram]. Hence the proposition appears to be basically impossible" -- A. W. Bickerton, 1926


"I am bold enough to say that a man-made Moon voyage will never occur regardless of all scientific advances." -- Lee De Forest, "the father of electronics"


"Fooling around with alternating currents is just a waste of time. Nobodywill use it, ever. It's too dangerous. . . it could kill a man as quickas a bolt of lightning. Direct current is safe." -- Thomas Edison


"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered asa means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876


"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." -- Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859


"No one will ever be able to measure nerve impulse speed." -- Johannes Muller, German Physiologist, 1846


"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from theintrusion of the wise and humane surgeon". -- Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria, 1873


"Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899



Many, many things were thought to be impossible... until someone did it.
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The problem with using the above list to support your assertions is that you've chosen examples which have all been disproved by actual scientific and medical developments. Your case, on the other hand, is analogous at this point to the following hypothetical phenomenon:

Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Doug Hart said:
The speaker does not require a high pass at all. It is just recommended.
I don't know about the 36v @ 1 meter that you refer to.
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The HP is recommended to avoid damage to the transducers, not a requirement if you don't mind damaged transducers.
The 36 volt measurement showing about an 8 dB dip in response at 70 Hz (generally indicative of a serious phase cancellation which usually can not be fixed with EQ) was on the BigE website in the same "War Ad Slick" that recommended the HP.
 

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Re: Listening Get Together

Dick Rees said:
The problem with using the above list to support your assertions is that you've chosen examples which have all been disproved by actual scientific and medical developments. Your case, on the other hand, is analogous at this point to the following hypothetical phenomenon:
Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Doesn't matter, the point is still the same.
Are you saying that audio is not scientific? or that it is impossible to develop a new way of reproducing audio?
I'm not sure that I understand your argument.
People have always said that something was impossible, only to have it proven possible by someone who did it.
It was impossible to run a mile in under 4 minutes... until someone did it.
This is in response to "It wont work".

And your link... it is a theoretical possibility. Split hydrogen and oxygen, burn the hydrogen and release the oxygen.
Either they just haven't figured it out, or they have figured it out and the big oil companies have buried it.
There's a conspiracy theory for ya... and a whole 'nother topic.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Art Welter said:
The HP is recommended to avoid damage to the transducers, not a requirement if you don't mind damaged transducers.
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No different than any other subwoofer. The driver will take more power before damage if it is high passed. Nothing to do with extension.

The 36 volt measurement showing about an 8 dB dip in response at 70 Hz (generally indicative of a serious phase cancellation which usually can not be fixed with EQ) was on the BigE website in the same "War Ad Slick" that recommended the HP.
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I am not familiar with that graph, method of testing, or that cab (other than hearing it at one time), so I can't comment on that one.
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Leland Crooks said:
The testing did not occur for several reasons. The primary one being that a change in the cabinet design started just after I posted that. It's a product under constant evolution. Who's isnt?

I have stated before in the thread, I am waiting for spring.
Learned my lesson, no graphs until I can do it outside. My test area is 20 acres of nothing.
As far as measurements at the listening GTG, well, it was for listening. Who wants to listen to test tones all afternoon?
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Leland,

It only takes a matter of minutes to do on axis measurements indoors or out, not all afternoon.
And listening to pink noise makes it easier to hear what a speaker's dispersion is like than listening to music, though I'd only need the time to walk from on axis to off axis before music listening would commence.

Unless it is actually raining, snowing or too windy I test outdoors year round.
Not doing outdoor measurements during the winter is going to insure a slow product evolution.

Purchasers of loudspeakers don't want "constant evolution", they want finished products that are consistent and perform to specifications.
Big E is already advertising finished products, yet it seems from what you write they are still in the development stage.

Art
 
Re: Listening Get Together

Leland Crooks said:
The testing did not occur for several reasons. The primary one being that a change in the cabinet design started just after I posted that. A single driver solution for a cab that previously required 2 drivers to create the "vortex". That has since been perfected after much burned plywood. Then a modest change increased output by 3db. It's a product under constant evolution. Who's isnt?

I have stated before in the thread, I am waiting for spring. Testing behind my shop for real numbers is pointless. Testing inside the shop creates artifacts. Learned my lesson, no graphs until I can do it outside. My test area is 20 acres of nothing. Closest house is 1/8 mile away, closest highway is 1/2 mile away, lightly traveled. As soon as it's warm enough and dry enough for me to get down there I'll mow it down and have at it. With appropriate software.

In the meantime the MinE25's will go out to the evaluators here who have volunteered to listen. That's all we ask. 5 minutes is enough.

As far as measurements at the listening GTG, well, it was for listening. Who wants to listen to test tones all afternoon?
Click to expand...

Thought I read that something about the "vortex" made these speakers impervious to room modes? Why not measure in the shop? What kind of artifacts can't be overcome by this new technology?
 
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