New Midas M32 Console

Re: New Midas M32 Console

There's always something to wait for, the next version will usually be faster, cheaper, lighter. I say get in the game, use the took to generate income and don't worry too much about ROI.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

We (day job) bought two XL8, a KT9696, a Pro2C, and five Pro2 this year. That this drop didn't happen before we spent all that dough is most perturbing. Plus, the less they cost, the less folks are willing to pay to rent them. Doubly screwed.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Reading ther first 3 or 4 pages I feel like I might be the only one on the planet that figures Midas was dead the minute they were bought and they have zero cred forever at this point as a branding issue. The only way to fix "new coke" was to bring back Coke Classic and phase out the new coke. Had they not done that, the brand would have been dead, but this is more like a grocery brand in a 3rd world country buying the coke brand, raiding the recipes, then adding their own flavor and lots of local water until it's all just colored water. I have NEVER used a behringer mixing product that didn't sound like a low rate MP3, and those were analog mixers. It's like when dbx had to compete (and changed ownership too) and scrapped the 160 and 166 for the cheaper and cheaper variants and added the 266 and all those cheapie SMD EQs. But at least the dbx stuff wasn't distorted, thin, and broken sounding. They at least never released a product that was just plain garbage. What you have here is a rotten apple making the bunch bad, not the formerly best reputation in the industry somehow bringing up the worst. Just an opinion, worth what it cost.

That being said if it's what is in front of me, I use it and do my best and if I think it sounds good at that moment then I won't complain. The look and feel is another thing. I saw one of these X32s (the only one I've ever seen anywhere) last June and it looked like a toy. If that sounds shocking to someone, what I see a lot of are Yamaha, Avid, Soundcraft and Digico. I'm liking the SD9.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

I Midas can undercut their own costs without going under the competitions, they will own the market.
a better product for a bit more, who wouldn't make that descision?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Vdosc had been around for way more than 10 years and was EOL for any actual business anyway. It still has resale value and had already made the businesses that owned it tons of ROI. Same with Q series, but Q isn't quite as old.

V-DOSC is 21 years old this year. To not introduce an updated product by this time would be silly. There aren't many products out there that have stood that test of time. L'Acoustics was more than due to sell something new. I can't tell if Per was being sarcastic but I hope so.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

If all else remains the same, the ONLY advantage to a higher clock speed (above the 44.1khz minimum) is lower possible latency, but only if you have an application where higher latency is an issue.

Some D/A converters blow and have bad reconstruction, and some DSP filters are badly behaved around Nyquist, so higher clock rates alleviate this issue. I am not in the least way suggesting the Behringer or Midas products have this problem, but IMHO it is a large part of why there is such a preference for high sample rates. Bad experiences in the past.

Which current crop of D/A converters in which products have this problem?

I have no idea if any modern products have poor reconstruction.

Bennett, Bennett, Bennett...

You're not helping educate the masses by bringing up rumours or issues that have been long solved. Again, your statement is not at all a good reason to purchase a console with a higher sample rate. People like to buy things with higher numbers, but we "professionals" should be above that.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

I have NEVER used a behringer mixing product that didn't sound like a low rate MP3, and those were analog mixers.

That being said if it's what is in front of me, I use it and do my best and if I think it sounds good at that moment then I won't complain. The look and feel is another thing. I saw one of these X32s (the only one I've ever seen anywhere) last June and it looked like a toy. If that sounds shocking to someone, what I see a lot of are Yamaha, Avid, Soundcraft and Digico. I'm liking the SD9.

I'll concur with you that the previous Behringer mixers were pretty crappy. As you use higher end gear, you're more likely to notice the subtle differences in audio quality between pieces of gear. I grew up on Mackie mixers, which were far superior to the Behringer copies. However, as I've moved up the scale, if I ever have to go back to one of those boards, I cringe at what comes out of them.

Then comes along the X32. Expectation was that it would be of normal Behringer sucky quality. But in all honesty, I find the sound from the Behringer to be slightly than that from an LS9, and pretty equal to the Soundcraft Compacts that I've used. The layout of the board has been just fine, and not that of a toy at all. The feel of the fader caps and buttons isn't the best, as I would have preferred a more rubberized material, but the level of quality is pretty solid. Reliability over time is yet to be proven, but all signs are pointing to this being a decent system. Percentage of failure rate is as good or better than other offerings.

The Midas X32 addresses the 'toy' feeling of the console by putting a higher quality 'skin' on the internal hardware. For higher end users, the added cost may be worth it for a better feeling piece of hardware, even if the internals are identical.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

This is pretty ridiculous. As manufacturing, technology, and competition continue to improve we will most likely be seeing MORE price drops from all manufacturers. Don't buy a console based on potential resale value. Buy the console that will satisfy your requirements and earn you money--it will most likely be worth pennies on the dollar by EOL!

Jeff
Hire rates are most often based on some percentage of the cost of purchasing the item. Dirks competitors can now buy the same desks he owns and hire them out at a cheaper rate, while still making the same %ROI as Dirk. I fully understand his frustration.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Have you ever bought a flat screen TV, monitor or mobile phone? Hurts doesn't it?
Do you make a living renting those items out? When new competitors can buy the same rental stock for a lot less money, it punishes those that were loyal and bought the stuff in the beginning. Truth is, Uli doesn't care about those people - he just wants to sell more units. Which is exactly why Behringer is a MI brand and not a pro brand, they seem to not understand how the pro end of the business operates.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Do you make a living renting those items out? When new competitors can buy the same rental stock for a lot less money, it punishes those that were loyal and bought the stuff in the beginning. Truth is, Uli doesn't care about those people - he just wants to sell more units. Which is exactly why Behringer is a MI brand and not a pro brand, they seem to not understand how the pro end of the business operates.

No I totally get it, the pro end of the business is a bunch of moaners that whine about everything that doesn't help protect their investment and their stature. "We hate cheap equipment because it enables the amateurs to steal our jobs", "Moan, the band can now afford their own PA", "What will become of me when anyone can buy equipment and produce decent sound?", "Amateurs think that they can buy this new cheap equipment and produce quality sound, and I really hate that because most people can't hear the difference".
The sound pros really need to form a strong union like the French farmers and block the main roads until the proper order of the business is restored.
And please send Uli a mail explaining how it is supposed to be in this line of business, I'm sure he'll be delighted to be educated.

:razz::lol:
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

No I totally get it, the pro end of the business is a bunch of moaners that whine about everything that doesn't help protect their investment and their stature. "We hate cheap equipment because it enables the amateurs to steal our jobs", "Moan, the band can now afford their own PA", "What will become of me when anyone can buy equipment and produce decent sound?", "Amateurs think that they can buy this new cheap equipment and produce quality sound, and I really hate that because most people can't hear the difference".
The sound pros really need to form a strong union like the French farmers and block the main roads until the proper order of the business is restored.
And please send Uli a mail explaining how it is supposed to be in this line of business, I'm sure he'll be delighted to be educated.

:razz::lol:

LOL :)

I see both sides here - it certainly sucks to buy right before a pretty huge price drop, but on the flip side, protectionism doesn't work either - manufacturers need to stay competitive, and at some point, prices of tech gear always fall. This is a good reminder to have a defined ROI period for your gear. Make sure you can make money with it before it's obsolete. Hopefully we all win more than we lose on this - be happy when the price falls right before you are about to make a big purchase.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

No I totally get it, the pro end of the business is a bunch of moaners that whine about everything that doesn't help protect their investment and their stature. "We hate cheap equipment because it enables the amateurs to steal our jobs", "Moan, the band can now afford their own PA", "What will become of me when anyone can buy equipment and produce decent sound?", "Amateurs think that they can buy this new cheap equipment and produce quality sound, and I really hate that because most people can't hear the difference".
The sound pros really need to form a strong union like the French farmers and block the main roads until the proper order of the business is restored.

:razz::lol:

Per, really? Now you're just making stuff up...I didn't even imply that those were my sentiments, and neither has anyone else commenting, that I have seen.

The idea here isn't to resist development or any of that other stuff you're dreaming up.

The point is that when someone is in the business of manufacturing really expensive trade tools, like sound desks that cost up to as much as several hundred thousand US Dollars, you owe your customers some loyalty:
These are highly specialized pro tools, and if those businesses hadn't made an investment in those desks in the first place, the manufacturer would long since have been out of business themselves. Owners of stuff like a Pro 9 or an XL 8 are in a customer base of just a few thousand, if that. Each and every one of those purchases pays for a significant portion of that whole product line.

This is what differentiates pro manufacturers and MI manufacturers.

The MI gear manufacturers need to think in terms of units moved and pretty much function like any consumer electronics manufacturer.

The pro gear manufacturers need to make truly great products that businesses can safely invest in.

The pro manufacturers understand that their customers need to buy objects of investment in order to make them money. They need super-stable products with a predictable life cycle and fantastic customer support, and they need to know that they won't be screwed over by the people they place their trust with.

Releasing new and cheaper lines of gear: Natural development.

Turning around and souring your existing customers' income potential by 30% by giving their competitors a 30% free advantage. Bad karma.


And please send Uli a mail explaining how it is supposed to be in this line of business, I'm sure he'll be delighted to be educated.

:razz::lol:


How about you just pass on my regards next time you are writing him one of your bedside love letters, I'm sure that'll delight him even more.

:razz::lol:


This is a huge fail from a company aspiring to service the top end of the pro market, no matter how great they are at winning over the bottom end.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

LOL :)

I see both sides here - it certainly sucks to buy right before a pretty huge price drop, but on the flip side, protectionism doesn't work either - manufacturers need to stay competitive, and at some point, prices of tech gear always fall. This is a good reminder to have a defined ROI period for your gear. Make sure you can make money with it before it's obsolete. Hopefully we all win more than we lose on this - be happy when the price falls right before you are about to make a big purchase.

I think one needs to differentiate between the "oh shoot, that cell phone is on sale, and I just bought one like it for 50 bucks more last month, oh well, I'll just not eat out this saturday, and it's all good" and the "I'm in business and the people making my tools just favoured my competitors over me by several mortgages worth - this may mean having to lay people off".

I am thoroughly surprised that someone trying to cater to the pro market would do this, it seems like an incredibly overt way to screw over your exsisting cutomers in plain view. Judging by the people commenting here that actually have shelled out for the top Midas desks and not just the Behringer X32, the pros are put off of Midas as a brand.

Comparing this move to a speaker manufacturer launching a new line of speakers once the old series is getting long in the tooth is almost to dumb to comment.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Kristian, what is the practical difference between lowering the price on an existing mixer and releasing a new mixer that makes the current model obsolete? Can you continue to charge premium rates for very long on that obsolete mixer, or are you in fact even more screwed than if the price dropped by 30%?

I didn't mean to imply that all the portrayed sentiment, or any of them, were your own. I'm sure you have read all of them in one form or another on various foras.

Even without prices of equipment dropping, most markets are seeing a downwards trend in rental prices, and lower equipment prices actually help rental firms survive at lower rental prices. One of the promoters that is currently more or less taking over everything is squeezing the big boy rental firms hard, and this is affecting or is bound to affect prices aross the board.

Anyway, is it really professional behaviour from a manufacturer to put customers financial wellbeing before the company's own health?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

[COLOR=#333333 said:
Originally Posted by [/COLOR]harrybrilljrI have NEVER used a behringer mixing product that didn't sound like a low rate MP3, and those were analog mixers.

That being said if it's what is in front of me, I use it and do my best and if I think it sounds good at that moment then I won't complain. The look and feel is another thing. I saw one of these X32s (the only one I've ever seen anywhere) last June and it looked like a toy. If that sounds shocking to someone, what I see a lot of are Yamaha, Avid, Soundcraft and Digico. I'm liking the SD9.



Brian jojade;75491]I'll concur with you that the previous Behringer mixers were pretty crappy. As you use higher end gear, you're more likely to notice the subtle differences in audio quality between pieces of gear. I grew up on Mackie mixers, which were far superior to the Behringer copies. However, as I've moved up the scale, if I ever have to go back to one of those boards, I cringe at what comes out of them.

Then comes along the X32. Expectation was that it would be of normal Behringer sucky quality. But in all honesty, I find the sound from the Behringer to be slightly than that from an LS9, and pretty equal to the Soundcraft Compacts that I've used. The layout of the board has been just fine, and not that of a toy at all. The feel of the fader caps and buttons isn't the best, as I would have preferred a more rubberized material, but the level of quality is pretty solid. Reliability over time is yet to be proven, but all signs are pointing to this being a decent system. Percentage of failure rate is as good or better than other offerings.

The Midas X32 addresses the 'toy' feeling of the console by putting a higher quality 'skin' on the internal hardware. For higher end users, the added cost may be worth it for a better feeling piece of hardware, even if the internals are identical.

+1 on that, Brian! Yamahas, Avid, Digico all have price tags in tens of thousands, it's not an apples to apples comparison. Nobody can reasonably expect the same performance from $3K desk (X32) and $15K-plus desks. Also it's not very professional to judge a mixer based on "saw" and "looked" criteria.

As for fader caps, Behringer sells new-style replacement caps for X32 directly from Las Vegas, for 50c a piece, they are very similar to Yamaha CL-series caps. I've replaced mine right away.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

I perfectly accept value loss and do factor that in. But 30% in one night is a bit harsh. Why not gradually? Start with 10% so owners can see a trend and react on it. Now I have no means or the slightest chance of ever recovering from that. It basically screws my business in regards to these two desks. Any other Pro manufacturer does price drops. But they start a little gentle to see what happens. And then you ( the owner knows) ok we getting to the end of life here. Better get them out the door and see whats coming up. But 30% in one hit without any warning is just suicide for some business. I can't wait for Uli to screw his own business up. He will never ever see a cent of my cash again. I would rather start renting out BBqs instead. I invested regularly into Midas. One or two consoles a year. That will now go to Digico.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dear All,

I'd like to take this time to help answer some of most frequently asked questions regarding the all-new MIDAS M32 console.

MIDAS PRO Series Preamps and Output Audio
The MIDAS M32 utilizes the award-winning MIDAS PRO microphone preamplifiers- the very same ones found in the industry-standard PRO2/3/6/9 consoles. The output DA and audio section is equally identical to the high-quality PRO Series providing an unprecedented audio quality.

MIDAS PRO Motorized Faders
Every MIDAS M32 comes equipped with MIDAS PRO Series faders, which are rated for 1 Million life cycles – three times more than other leading consoles.

Built for Tomorrow
The M32 is a console built for today and tomorrow. As it currently stands, the supported sample rates of the M32 are 48kHz and 44.1kHz. However, its future-proof capable open-architecture design allows for later 96K implementation.
Because it's 48kHz- you have 96 network-able channels (48 channels per AES50 port), allowing multiple (up to six) DL16 Digital Snakes to be routable across the network.

Since the announcement of the M32 last month, we have been overwhelmed with great questions, and overall user excitement. Among those questions are the differences and similarities between the M32 and the X32. Really, it's the similarities that help these desks compliment each other so well- after all, the X32 was designed in part by MIDAS and has become the world's best-selling digital console selling over 100,000 units.

MIDAS M32 employs:
- Genuine MIDAS PRO preamps
- MIDAS PRO output DA Conversion and audio section
- 1,000,000 life cycle MIDAS PRO Series faders
- Innovative design, in collaboration with Rajesh Kutty, high-profile industrial designer for high-performance cars
- Cutting edge materials such as carbon fiber arm rest and light-weight aluminum reinforced sub-frame

Other features include:
- Ability to network with entire X32 Product Family
- MIDAS PRO Series DL251/DL252 Stage Box support
- POWERPLAY P16 Personal Monitoring Integration
- KLARK TEKNIK DN9650 support (via 48K beta* firmware)
- KLARK TEKNIK DN9620 Extender compatible
- KLARK TEKNIK DN9610 Repeater compatible

Be sure to check out the M32 Web Brochure:
MARK Grap GLOB_Artwork_2014 M32 Brochure V2 Flip_2014-02-10_Rev.4 - Powered by aXmag

The M32 will be on display at the Prolight + Sound trade fair on March 12-15 in Frankfurt, Germany.

Lastly, we anticipate the M32 will start shipping world-wide Q2/Q3.

Thank you all for the great questions and curiosity relating to this historic, new MIDAS console.


Best,
Chase McKnight
Specialist, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
MIDAS
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

Thank you Chase for the information. I for one would like to know about the "future proofing" alluded to by Midas. Specifically the 96 kHz sampling rate. According to the developers of the X32 they have pushed processing ability to around 90% which doesn't leave enough for 96 kHz as designed. I gave two possibilities in my post #221 above for expansion. My question simply is one of them implemented or is this going to be an add-on (replacement) board down the road at I'm certain great expense to owners. The firmware to implement this may not be ready but that's a download away at no expense unless Midas wants to charge for it.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dear All,

I'd like to take this time to help answer some of most frequently asked questions regarding the all-new MIDAS M32 console.

MIDAS PRO Series Preamps and Output Audio
The MIDAS M32 utilizes the award-winning MIDAS PRO microphone preamplifiers- the very same ones found in the industry-standard PRO2/3/6/9 consoles. The output DA and audio section is equally identical to the high-quality PRO Series providing an unprecedented audio quality.

MIDAS PRO Motorized Faders
Every MIDAS M32 comes equipped with MIDAS PRO Series faders, which are rated for 1 Million life cycles – three times more than other leading consoles.

Built for Tomorrow
The M32 is a console built for today and tomorrow. As it currently stands, the supported sample rates of the M32 are 48kHz and 44.1kHz. However, its future-proof capable open-architecture design allows for later 96K implementation.
Because it's 48kHz- you have 96 network-able channels (48 channels per AES50 port), allowing multiple (up to six) DL16 Digital Snakes to be routable across the network.

Since the announcement of the M32 last month, we have been overwhelmed with great questions, and overall user excitement. Among those questions are the differences and similarities between the M32 and the X32. Really, it's the similarities that help these desks compliment each other so well- after all, the X32 was designed in part by MIDAS and has become the world's best-selling digital console selling over 100,000 units.

MIDAS M32 employs:
- Genuine MIDAS PRO preamps
- MIDAS PRO output DA Conversion and audio section
- 1,000,000 life cycle MIDAS PRO Series faders
- Innovative design, in collaboration with Rajesh Kutty, high-profile industrial designer for high-performance cars
- Cutting edge materials such as carbon fiber arm rest and light-weight aluminum reinforced sub-frame

Other features include:
- Ability to network with entire X32 Product Family
- MIDAS PRO Series DL251/DL252 Stage Box support
- POWERPLAY P16 Personal Monitoring Integration
- KLARK TEKNIK DN9650 support (via 48K beta* firmware)
- KLARK TEKNIK DN9620 Extender compatible
- KLARK TEKNIK DN9610 Repeater compatible

Be sure to check out the M32 Web Brochure:
MARK Grap GLOB_Artwork_2014 M32 Brochure V2 Flip_2014-02-10_Rev.4 - Powered by aXmag

The M32 will be on display at the Prolight + Sound trade fair on March 12-15 in Frankfurt, Germany.

Lastly, we anticipate the M32 will start shipping world-wide Q2/Q3.

Thank you all for the great questions and curiosity relating to this historic, new MIDAS console.


Best,
Chase McKnight
Specialist, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
MIDAS


Hi Chase,
Thanks for putting this up. It leaves a few questions tho.

1. Preamps. It was originally stated these were XL4 Preamps with 192khz AD converters. You now say they are Pro Series Preamps. These were based on XL4 right? Bit the Pro Series AD is 96khz correct?

2. My Midas desk has Penny and Giles Faders. Is that what you are going to put into the desk?

3. When you say 96 channels at 48khz, aren't you misleading people? Shouldn't it say 48 in and 48 out as in both directions?

4. Will the M32 make use of the redundant ports on my Dl251?


Best regards