X32 Discussion

Re: X32 Discussion

With so many outputs available, I wondered about removing my 3 way crossover from the rack and then using some graphics at the mixer end to give me control from FOH, so depending on the music style I could change what each speaker section is being fed with? Daft idea or not?

actually, yes, that is a daft idea. [as an american, i couldn't pass up the opportunity to use that word :) ]

seriously, there are many reasons not to do this. an EQ on an output [especially a graphic] is no replacement for a crossover. it lacks the level of control as well as the steepness of crossover curves among other things. there have been a couple of people who have suggested just such a thing and they have been strongly advised to not do it by many larger brains than mine.

also, the idea of changing the crossover points or tuning of your speakers for different styles of music doesn't make much sense either. you tune your speakers with a crossover/processor for the highest fidelity and accurate reproduction you can get. then if you want to make stylistic EQ choices based on musical style, you can do that on the inputs coming into the console.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

A couple questions:
1. Now that the "osc" information has been released on the website, has anyone done anything with this? Like with "touchosc" for example? Maybe to get something that works with an iphone or android perhaps?

2. Would it be possible to change the gate on the console to add an ability to use it as an expander instead, perhaps with a knee control and a lower threshold setting (-80) like the roland consoles do (and not the -55 like the yamaha stuff)? I just gotta have that to clean up those noisy guitar amps sometimes, with a low threshold, the expander works so much better than a gate to do that.

Thanks for all the work on such a great product, I can't wait for the Iphone app to come out!

-Declan Slater
Everlasting Sound
 
Re: X32 Discussion

With so many outputs available, I wondered about removing my 3 way crossover from the rack and then using some graphics at the mixer end to give me control from FOH, so depending on the music style I could change what each speaker section is being fed with? Daft idea or not?

If you don't know the difference between a crossover and a graphic EQ I suggest you buy only powered speakers so you can't mess with them.

A graphic EQ can attenuate a particular frequency range by maybe 12-15dB, and pulling down all the sliders does not make a pretty result. A crossover attenuates more and more as you get farther into the stop-band, often by 24dB per octave. That means that, if you put a 24db/8ve high pass at 1kHz, by 500Hz it's down 24dB and by 250Hz it's down 48dB. Your graphic EQ would still only be down 12-15dB, which will not adequately control excursion and especially in between subs and mains will be very audible! The ripple from the cascaded filters all at max reduction will also be very strange, expect at least 3dB of error and possibly much more.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Thanks Brian - we've got loads of similar words we can replace daft with. Maybe I'll have to wait for somebody to produce a crossover plug in then! Actually I do make adjustments quite often depending on the kinds of events we do. The system we have has quite a bit of overlap at the bottom end, and if we're doing something that needs the modern thud effect, it's better coming from the subs, but if we have plenty of loud tuned bass guitar - especially when the bass player has a 5 string, this sounds better dealt with by the other cabs, tuning the sub break down below this so only the bottom of the kick comes from the subs. The tonal character of the bass changes when it swaps sources. I can't pretend we do this a lot - but for musical theatre, we have a preset that sounds really nice and smooth, and for thrashy rock, we have a different crossover setting. It would be nice to be able to manage this from the front, that was the reason for the query.

cheers
Paul
 
Re: X32 Discussion

With so many outputs available, I wondered about removing my 3 way crossover from the rack and then using some graphics at the mixer end to give me control from FOH, so depending on the music style I could change what each speaker section is being fed with? Daft idea or not?

Daft idea. Keep your crossover/system controller. Seriously.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Hello, I'm from Chile South America, I have two weeks ago my X32 EXELENTE machine.


the first thing I will add is regarding the VCA, quoted from one of my teachers, Mr. MAGU



VCA: An amplifier whose gain is adjusted or controlled by applying voltage (DC) external. One of the most common uses of the VCAs is on synthesizers used in electronic music, where it is used to generate the envelope of the signals generated. They are also used in compressors, limiters and companders.
The Audio Dictionary (GLENN D. WHITE) University of Washington Press.


VCA: An electronic circuit consisting of three terminals: input, output and control. The output voltage is a function of the input voltage and the control port. The stage gain (amplification) is determined by the control signal voltage which is generally DC (Direct Current or continuous), but can be any signal or digital code. Usually the main element in dynamic drivers as compressors, expanders, limiters and noise gates.
Rane Professional Audio Reference.


AC: It is used in console automation to replace manual movements of faders and knobs during mixing. Digital information from a computer (PC) controls the amount of attenuation in the signal path.
Sound Studio Production Techniques (DENNIS N. NARDANTONIO) TAB books


VCA: Unlike traditional amplifiers, where the output level is directly proportional to the level that occurs in its entry in the VCA level audio program is a function of DC voltage (usually in the range of 0 to 5 volts) applied to the control input of the device. The amount of voltage applied to the control input determines the amount of attenuation applied to the circuit output.
Modern Recording Techniques (Hubber AND RUSTEIN) SAMS
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Therefore, while the audio signal is "AC voltage" (alternating current), the voltage applied to the control input of the VCA circuit is "DC voltage" (direct current).


It is very important to understand that in any way is NOT the same move "faders" VCA that "faders" audio subgroup.


By using the motion audio subgroups of "fader" audio subgroup amplifier circuit is after the addition of all channels assigned to the subgroup.


By moving utilzar VCA faders VCA LEVEL CHANGES "FADER" INPUT CHANNEL but does not move "FADER" physically. That is, the VCA is a virtual driver input channel faders. If the mixer had "faders" motorized input channels, then that is an adjustment to a "fader" VCA would move all the "faders" input channel associated with the VCA.


So while making adjustments to the "faders" audio subgroup has no effect on the "faders" individual channel to make adjustments to the "faders" VCA has effect on all channel faders individual associated the VCA.


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Group Therapy


Article by Steve La Cerra, EQ LIVE, December 2001


Groups versus audio VCAs


The concepts of subgroup faders and VCA groups seem to be a constant source of confusion for many sound technicians. We will look at the differences and applications of each.


Audio Subgroups
The audio subgroup faders provide a path for audio input channel to the mix bus L / R. Usually, a channel mixture reaches the bus allocation using a button called "L / R". Pressing this button appears directly in the channel mixing L / R. We have all mixed in this way, always coming to the same problem: When we want a channel group sound a little more or less strong, we have to move a number of faders while trying to maintain balance thereof together with the greater accurately as possible. It is not an easy operation.
Audio subgroups alleviate this problem. Besides the assign button to "L / R" on each input channel, many tables have additional buttons allocation for "1/2", "3/4", etc., And the corresponding group faders game. Pressing "1/2" on a channel, that channel is sent to the audio subgroups 1 and 2 (the channel pan knob moves the signal between them). Assigning all channels of a large battery to a subset of audio, you can make the whole drum kit sounds stronger or weaker maintaining the balance between the different microphones, using a single fader.


Usually a subgroup fader will control bread, button mapping L / R, a mute switch, and an insertion point. You must assign the subgroup L / R or not hear any of the channels in that group. Subgroups are "panoramizables", as a channel, so that almost always need two subgroups to create a stereo. (There are some tables that have a single fader for stereo subgroup, but few.) Of course, you can assign a complete drum kit to a subgroup, in which case the battery will be heard in mono. One subgroup surely be more appropriate for a multichannel signal low.


If you create a number of subgroups for drums, bass, guitars, keyboards, vocals, and effects provides more control over signals with less fingers also facilitates silencing "mute" many channels with fewer button presses ( purposes for example). Note that a channel may be assigned to a subgroup and the mixing L / R time. This is something to be controlled, as it decreases the effectiveness of the subgroups.


I'm running out compressors ...
Audio subgroups are very useful when you have limited external teams: What do we do if we have four channels choral voices and a single compressor? Assigning all channels to a single subgroup chorus audio and connecting the compressor in the insertion of audio subgroup mics all voices are compressed and now under the control of a single fader (not bad!). Some technicians do, when there are plenty of tom mics and not enough gates. Assign toms a couple of stereo audio subgroups, and insert the doors in the subgroups. Now all toms use a door inserted into the two channels - but be careful to adjust the doors to not cut any of the strokes tom of small drums.


VCA Groups
A VCA group fader no audio circuitry to the mixture, is literally a remote control of a channel fader (this is the major point of confusion regarding the VCAs). Tables with VCAs usually have two independent sets of buttons for channel allocation: one selects the audio circuit and the other selected for remote VCA. After assigning a channel to a VCA, the channel must be assigned to a circuit audio or no sound is heard. VCA group faders have no pan control, and you can not pan a VCA-controlled channel is panned by the VCA. Most tables have direct output jacks on the rear panel audio for each subgroup (to, for example, connect to a multitrack recorder), but never have outlets for VCA groups.
The VCAs can reduce the mixture to a still smaller number of faders. That drum kit 10-channel stereo can be controlled with a VCA fader. The same is true of a set of multichannel stereo keyboards. It makes possible a "remote control" complex with multiple input channels VCAs (audio ineffective in subgroups). For example some technicians independent VCA groups create drums, bass, guitars, and keyboards, and then also all those channels assigned to a VCA fader further; This additional VCA serves as a global control for the whole group minus the vocals. The VCAs work with a "lowest common denominator" so if you have the VCA fader "group" muted or lowered to a minimum, nothing will be heard regardless of the position of the other VCA faders.


I'm losing my balance ...
There are times when audio subgroups do not solve the problem. Take for instance that we have two independent audio subgroups effects voices. Assume that are post-fader effects sends. Moving a vocal channel fader up or down, the level of reverberation of voices changes with fader - keeping the balance between direct and reverberation. Correct. But if the voice group move up or down, the level of the reverb will not change - changing the balance between direct and reverberation. Even when the subgroup of voices silenced, they will still hear the reverb. You can assign the voices and effects to the same subgroup, but then you will not have an easy way to mute effects between songs when he / singer makes his "schtick".
The solution here is VCA groups. By assigning a voice channel and a VCA VCA move up or down, you are controlling remotely-channel fader so that the auxiliary send levels to also change. If voice channels are assigned to a VCA group, moving the VCA fader levels change choral voices and - due to the effect of remote control - will also change simultaneously levels effect sends chorus of voices . Now, we are controlling voices multichannel effects using a single fader.


A good trick to try is to assign the battery channel audio to subgroups 1 and 2, and connect a stereo compressor group inserts. Assign channels to VCA kick and snare 1, and the rest of the kit to VCA2. Moving and VCA2 VCA1 levels are balanced kick / snare the rest of the kit. Raising or lowering the subgroup faders 1 and 2 just get the whole kit sound more or less. But what is interesting is that as you raise the faders over VCA-send signal to the compressor because the channel levels to audio subgroups 1 and 2 are controlled remotely - by VCAs. Changing these levels the compressor reacts differently. You can control the amount of compression needed using VCAs and then adjust the overall level of the kit using the audio subgroup faders.
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Mauricio Ramirez
Meyer Sound Seminars and Trainings



Atte: Claudio Luis Pardo Contreras
Sound Technican.
Sound reinforcement system design.
 
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Re: X32 Discussion

tuning the sub break down below this so only the bottom of the kick comes from the subs. The tonal character of the bass changes when it swaps sources.
Paul


Hey Paul sounds like you might think about using aux driven subs, if you have specific channels that needs to be driven into the subs, in certain times / cases....



I can't pretend we do this a lot - but for musical theatre, we have a preset that sounds really nice and smooth, and for thrashy rock, we have a different crossover setting. It would be nice to be able to manage this from the front, that was the reason for the query.

cheers
Paul

This could be solved with a program change on your system processor, if you have the capability of doing so wirelessly or through cat 5 connection...

what is your system, and the processor type ?
 
Re: X32 Discussion

With so many outputs available, I wondered about removing my 3 way crossover from the rack and then using some graphics at the mixer end to give me control from FOH, so depending on the music style I could change what each speaker section is being fed with? Daft idea or not?

Totally mad.

And I believe that you can accomplish what you want by what we call "mixing".......

And if you really do need to have different cross-over settings, I agree with the post recommending Digital Speaker Processing with recallable presets for your various needs.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Thanks Brian - we've got loads of similar words we can replace daft with. Maybe I'll have to wait for somebody to produce a crossover plug in then! Actually I do make adjustments quite often depending on the kinds of events we do. The system we have has quite a bit of overlap at the bottom end, and if we're doing something that needs the modern thud effect, it's better coming from the subs, but if we have plenty of loud tuned bass guitar - especially when the bass player has a 5 string, this sounds better dealt with by the other cabs, tuning the sub break down below this so only the bottom of the kick comes from the subs. The tonal character of the bass changes when it swaps sources. I can't pretend we do this a lot - but for musical theatre, we have a preset that sounds really nice and smooth, and for thrashy rock, we have a different crossover setting. It would be nice to be able to manage this from the front, that was the reason for the query.

cheers
Paul

While I think it is totally doable, there are some reservations to doing this from a console. The main issue is that the console will be somewhat unpredictable; you can load a scene or reset the console and your outputs are no longer what you think, not a fault of the console, but rather a consequence of the concept of having everything routable and assignable with no way of hardlocking any particular settings. Not that this is an absolute obstacle when you are feeding subs+tops and you have the necessary protection later in the system.
If you are using your x-over between mids and highs, I would say that running straight from the console is an absolute no-no, because you can find yourself sending full range to the highs and blowing them quite easily, and also on this console you have a start up pop that makes it useless for such an application.
I'm planning to do the sub-tops processing in the console, and also do the split and timing for cardiosubs and end fire. However, I'm running powered tops, so I can't destroy anything if I screw up the routing in a scene change.
Now, depending on your crossover make and model, you can hopefully switch presets via midi. If you can, send midi changes to the crossover from either the programmable buttons or specify midi sends in the scene changes.

EDIT:
If you want to do the sub-mains crossover from the console, use the parametric eq.

Mains: Set eq 1 and 2 to LCut and 3 to PEQ, Q=1.8 Gain=5.0 and frequency of all three one step above x-over frequency.
Subs: Set eq 5 and 6 to HCut and 4 to PEQ, Q=1.8 Gain=5.0 and frequency of all three one step below x-over frequency.

That leaves you with 3 parametrics free for speaker tunings.

You can obviously make a bandpass by using all six parametrics, and it certainly makes sense to add some highpass for the sub, leaving you somewhat less to play with for tunings.
 
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Re: X32 Discussion

A couple questions:
1. Now that the "osc" information has been released on the website, has anyone done anything with this? Like with "touchosc" for example? Maybe to get something that works with an iphone or android perhaps?

Yes, if you have a look on www.x32user.net you will see that I have been experimenting with OSC. Ive got a few ideas in my head of things I want to do.

Im currently working 7 days a week and what little free time I have is tied up dealing with a major customer going bankrupt on me ! :(~:-(~:sad: But I will be experimenting with it again soon.

Kev
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Can anyone comment on the road worthiness of the X32? i.e., loading in and out a truck a few time per week in rolling ata case.

Rolling ATA as in tiny suitcase wheels? Why turn every bit of kit you have got into unreliable junk? I'm a fan of big (preferably pneumatic) wheels for anything that can be broken, and wouldn't use those cases for anything electronic that wasn't extremly well suspended inside.
So far, nobody has done more than around fifty gigs with the mixer, so I think we'll have to wait for a couple more months to get any kind of answer.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Hello,

I did have some time to play around our new X32.
what I dont know how to do is, how to inser to channels plugins from external PC thru the FW port?
I mean in a way, like it is when using the Midas VeniceF, where I can insert DAW channels into all of the Console Channels...

Could anyone of you help me?

thanks,

Tamas
 
Flightcase with wheels - WHY ???

Howdy

As part time soundman / part time repairman I put my comment on transporting anything on wheels.

YES - many of my colleagues have oodles of racks on wheels to make part of the transport easier - I allways used to have this two wheel thing with air-filled BIG wheels to schlepp my sensitive and heavy equipment around. Also all my racks except for one were small enough for one man to carry alone - rather make many more trips back and forth than break my back...

But just stop to think about it for a while - most racks have HARD wheels - and we usually roll them on HARD floors - then there is sand and other things plus the floors are often anything but smooth. :?~:-?~:???: SO - there will be heavy vibration on the equipment inside that rack. That vibration makes individual components eventually shake loose - then one day there is no good sound anymore.

So either get a dolly with air filled wheels or something else with air in wheels or simply just schlepp the electronics with your beautifull strong arms....:lol:

Or get prepaired to replace your equipment periodically !



Just my opinion....
 
48k vs 44.1k

Hi,

This may have been discussed before but I dont see it. What is the primary difference between running the mixer in 48khz mode vs 44.1khz mode? Why would you choose one over the other.

Thanks,
Jared
 
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Re: X32 Discussion

Hello,

I did have some time to play around our new X32.
what I dont know how to do is, how to inser to channels plugins from external PC thru the FW port?
I mean in a way, like it is when using the Midas VeniceF, where I can insert DAW channels into all of the Console Channels...

Could anyone of you help me?

thanks,

Tamas

There are a couple of ways, if you send all your input channels to the card, and insert effects on some channels in the computer before returning to the outputs of the individual channels, then you'll have insert if you select card return as source on the channels you want inserts on. (Haven't tried, but imagine it should work)
The other way is to assign aux outs to card, taking aux returns from card, and using aux as inserts on the channels you want the inserts.
 
Re: Flightcase with wheels - WHY ???

Hello all. My first gig with the X32 went very well. Thanks in a big way to the information on this board.

I have a question about recording to the USB stick.

Every time I press record, it just records the same file name and overwrites the previous recording. Shouldn't it be naming the next file ....2 or something? Is this a configuration issue, and if so, where? I can't seem to find it. I've tried different USB sticks, so I don't believe that to be the problem.

I would expect to be able to hit 'Record', then stop. Then when I hit Record again, a new file would be created.

Thanks,
Mitchell
 
Re: 48k vs 44.1k

Hi,

This may have been discussed before but I dont see it. What is the primary difference between running the mixer in 48khz mode vs 44.1khz mode? Why would you choose one over the other.

Thanks,
Jared

Except for recording or playback format that you might want/have to use, 48 kHz gives you slightly less latency.
 
Re: Flightcase with wheels - WHY ???

Hello all. My first gig with the X32 went very well. Thanks in a big way to the information on this board.

I have a question about recording to the USB stick.

Every time I press record, it just records the same file name and overwrites the previous recording. Shouldn't it be naming the next file ....2 or something? Is this a configuration issue, and if so, where? I can't seem to find it. I've tried different USB sticks, so I don't believe that to be the problem.

I would expect to be able to hit 'Record', then stop. Then when I hit Record again, a new file would be created.

Thanks,
Mitchell

Mitchell,
Glad to hear your enjoying your X32. The issue you are running into with the USB Recorder has been resolved in our latest firmware. When you get a chance, download version 1.09 from this link: Behringer: DIGITAL MIXER X32. Unzip the firmware and copy it to the root directory of your USB Stick. Then restart the console with the stick in the USB RECORDER slot and the update process should happen automatically. I would recommend you update soon as there have been a number of improvements and new features in the last few firmware updates. PM me if you need further assistance with the update.

Best,
John DiNicola
Senior Specialist, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER