X32 Discussion

Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Here's one of our scene files: http://www.joesiv.net/misc/SSMichael.scn

if anyone can spot any configuration problem, that would cause pops and crackles, and cause feedback ramps, I would be greatly appreciated.

This morning, we're doing a the single input test, running and MP3 player for a long time, with just mains connected, after a factory reset.
 
Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Joseph Schuurman said:
Here's one of our scene files: http://www.joesiv.net/misc/SSMichael.scn

if anyone can spot any configuration problem, that would cause pops and crackles, and cause feedback ramps, I would be greatly appreciated.

This morning, we're doing a the single input test, running and MP3 player for a long time, with just mains connected, after a factory reset.
Click to expand...

Joe what is Channel 32?
 
Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Billy Peiffer said:
Joe what is Channel 32?
Click to expand...
That is an XLR going from one of our Analog outs (post fader) to that ch 32 input. The intention is to have a setup similar to how personal monitor controls have the main mix for the stage monitors. It was my "genious" idea, though I've heard now that there are better, "internal" ways of doing it.

I don't think that is affecting anything though, I've unplugged it, and the issue still occurs.
 
Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Billy Peiffer said:
Joe what is Channel 32?
Click to expand...

Edit Joe responded as I posted this...But channel 32 you do have in both monitor sends and main LR so perhaps it is creating a loop.

If everything is muted do you still have the noise? Or does it show up on any particular channel (if you un mute each channel individually does it the noise show up)?


Also, personally I find the layout a bit cumbersome...I know we all have our own way of setting up the layout but to me it doesn't feel efficient. I would definitely setup a few DCA's
 
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Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Jared Koopman said:
Edit Joe responded as I posted this...But channel 32 you do have in both monitor sends and main LR so perhaps it is creating a loop.
Click to expand...
Interesting, using the X32 interface, it should have the fader set to 0. We've had the same problem with that channel 32 disconnected however. *edit* after looking at the scene file myself I see:
/ch/32/mix ON -oo ON +0 OFF -oo
doesn't that mean it's off in the mains?

Jared Koopman said:
If everything is muted do you still have the noise? Or does it show up on any particular channel (if you un mute each channel individually does it the noise show up)?
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe we've muted every single channel, and still happens, we could still double check that everything is muted (in particular, I'd like to ensure the effects channels are muted), however when it happens, it's typically in a live situation, and the priority isn't isolating it, but trying to the sound workable again, and to stop hurting peoples ears :( (though I've been trying to isolate it as much as I can). Actually, this sunday I was behind the board, and it made most of the children cry...

At one point, we've had all inputs muted, all effects faders down, and then I could get the feedback to disappear by turning down the effect sends (all of them had to be shut off to get the problem to disappear). Though, this last sunday, it was the opposite, where it was crackle, and a feedback ramp that happened in less than a second up to full feedback, and I already had all the effects sends down to zero (on purpose to avoid the problem), and then dropping the effects faders down helped us get back to a workable state. In my great wisdom (joking), we attempted to save the scene with all effects sends at zero, and effects faders at zero, and the issue still occured...

it's been a bit confusing (and frustrating to the sound team, and patrons), it would have made sense if it was just a simple voltage drop, as I work in the hardware/software industry, and memory corruption could cause any number of problems internally. Having installed our UPS, this last sunday, we had the issue occur again, the UPS didn't even kick up a fuss during the situation, we had the UPS connected to a computer for monitoring, and no logs kicked up regarding low voltage.

Jared Koopman said:
Also, personally I find the layout a bit cumbersome...I know we all have our own way of setting up the layout but to me it doesn't feel efficient. I would definitely setup a few DCA's
Click to expand...
I attached that file out of the several we use because it's the most basic. That is a mid-week file in which the problem occurs most frequently (inconveniently, I'm not even there for those sets), for our sunday file, we make fairly decent use of DCA's. If your curious, it looks like this: http://www.joesiv.net/misc/AmandasTeam.scn Feedback welcome. We're still coming to grips with the board, as we're all volunteers, and as we figure out different things, we try to integrate it into our workflow. Personally, I agree, using the DCA's is very handy indeed!
 
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Re: Pop. crackle and feedback problems

Just to be on the safe side, unassign ch.32 from mains. It looks like you have only left channel in there and you are panning some instruments, so maybe better to either assign a matrix to ch.12 and send both left and right to that matrix.

Mix2 say PC, are you sending back to same PC that is used on Aux5&6? Could be a loop right there, depending on what is running on the PC.

I notice that no effect sends are turned up.

Edit: Sorry, had to post this a bit incomplete as I'm nodding off, I'll continue when I wake up.
 
Re: Pop. crackle and feedback problems

Per Søvik said:
Just to be on the safe side, unassign ch.32 from mains. It looks like you have only left channel in there and you are panning some instruments, so maybe better to either assign a matrix to ch.12 and send both left and right to that matrix.
Click to expand...
I haven't figured out how to assign matrix' yet, thank you for the suggestion, I'll see if I can figure that out rather than doing it the way I'm currently doing it, I may have some questions though (it'll be later this week, or next, though as we're currently running under bare minimum setup right now to see if we can isolate the issue. After today's test, which after 8+ hours hasn't shown the issue with just a MP3 player running as the only connected device, we'll be setting up one of our wireless mics' and 1 piano (DI'd) and 1 wired SM57, for tomorrow evenings set)

Per Søvik said:
Mix2 say PC, are you sending back to same PC that is used on Aux5&6? Could be a loop right there, depending on what is running on the PC.

I notice that no effect sends are turned up.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean by Aux5&6. I believe the Aux in 5/6 are the RCA in's and that is connected to an IPOD. If I remember correctly, Aux Out 1+2 which are 1/4" TR's are going to an audio distributor, which goes to 1 PC (which does not have a return to the board), 1 MP3 Recorder (backup), 1 FM transmitter, 2 amplifiers for various rooms around the building.
 
Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Joseph Schuurman said:
Here's one of our scene files: http://www.joesiv.net/misc/SSMichael.scn

if anyone can spot any configuration problem, that would cause pops and crackles, and cause feedback ramps, I would be greatly appreciated.

This morning, we're doing a the single input test, running and MP3 player for a long time, with just mains connected, after a factory reset.
Click to expand...

Dear Joseph,
As Antoon says, I would suggest creating a stereo subgroup that contains your whole mix and routing that to input channels “inside” of the X32. Just make sure that the mix buses containing your subgroup is not feeding the Main LR. Then you can choose two input channels, such as 31+32 to bring the mix buses back in. To do so, select the channel and press the VIEW button near the CONFIG/PREAMP section on the channel strip. Choose the appropriate Bus for the channel source, making sure that those channels are NOT feeding the Main LR or the mix buses that contain your subgroup. When patching this in via analog as you are now, you are adding another A/D & D/A Conversion, which introduces about 0.8 ms of latency. This means that the main mix in the monitors would be slightly behind any input channels that are also going to the same mix. While this amount of latency is hard to detect, it could cause some phase problems.
When using the XiQ iPhone app, why not make use of the MCA feature? MCAs allow you to assign as many inputs as you want to a single fader (or wheel in the case of XiQ). XiQ allows for up to 4 MCA Groups, making it easy to setup something simple like Drums, Guitars, Vocals, ME.
I have looked at your scene file and have loaded it onto my X32 but so far have not recreated your feedback issue. If you continue to have difficulties with this, please PM me so we can get you in touch with our CARE department.

Best,
John DiNicola
Senior Specialist, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
 
Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

Joseph Schuurman said:
Interesting, using the X32 interface, it should have the fader set to 0. We've had the same problem with that channel 32 disconnected however. *edit* after looking at the scene file myself I see:
/ch/32/mix ON -oo ON +0 OFF -oo
doesn't that mean it's off in the mains?
Click to expand...

Yes you want that off. Having it go back into the main LR feed will create a feedback loop. I am willing to bet the ramping feedback is because of this.
Joesephs Team Channel 32 turn off LR feed.JPG

Yes, I believe we've muted every single channel, and still happens, we could still double check that everything is muted (in particular, I'd like to ensure the effects channels are muted), however when it happens, it's typically in a live situation, and the priority isn't isolating it, but trying to the sound workable again, and to stop hurting peoples ears :( (though I've been trying to isolate it as much as I can). Actually, this sunday I was behind the board, and it made most of the children cry...

At one point, we've had all inputs muted, all effects faders down, and then I could get the feedback to disappear by turning down the effect sends (all of them had to be shut off to get the problem to disappear). Though, this last sunday, it was the opposite, where it was crackle, and a feedback ramp that happened in less than a second up to full feedback, and I already had all the effects sends down to zero (on purpose to avoid the problem), and then dropping the effects faders down helped us get back to a workable state. In my great wisdom (joking), we attempted to save the scene with all effects sends at zero, and effects faders at zero, and the issue still occured...

it's been a bit confusing (and frustrating to the sound team, and patrons), it would have made sense if it was just a simple voltage drop, as I work in the hardware/software industry, and memory corruption could cause any number of problems internally. Having installed our UPS, this last sunday, we had the issue occur again, the UPS didn't even kick up a fuss during the situation, we had the UPS connected to a computer for monitoring, and no logs kicked up regarding low voltage.
Click to expand...

Is it possible the UPS is introducing the clicking noise you mentioned? I dont know just something I would check.

I know in the past there have been times I had "problems" with the X32 that I just couldn't explain how or why it was doing it. It just didn't make sense. I have found that resetting the console to factory default scene helps to troubleshoot problems. More often than not it is an erroneous setting I have made in the scene or show file. Try resetting the board and see if the problem still exists. If it does, I would take a systematic approach to removing all sources and see if the problem goes away as I remove stuff.


I attached that file out of the several we use because it's the most basic. That is a mid-week file in which the problem occurs most frequently (inconveniently, I'm not even there for those sets), for our sunday file, we make fairly decent use of DCA's. If your curious, it looks like this: http://www.joesiv.net/misc/AmandasTeam.scn Feedback welcome. We're still coming to grips with the board, as we're all volunteers, and as we figure out different things, we try to integrate it into our workflow. Personally, I agree, using the DCA's is very handy indeed!
Click to expand...

I tend to like to group my sources by color (ie all vox green, all guitars red, drums blue, etc). Having too many colors gets confusing and having similar colors for like sources, facilitates muscle memory. I also match the DCA's color with the corresponding sources. Again we all have our own ways of doing things, but I find having consistency across the configuration helps a lot, especially when dealing with multiple operators like in a Church setting, which it sounds like this is.

Also, while the picture labels are nifty, I personally find it cleaner to just have text in the scribble strips. That way I know exactly what it is without trying to guess which is the bass guitar and the acoustic guitar when trying to quickly make adjustments.
 
Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

I tend to like to group my sources by color (ie all vox green said:
The DCA's are the only thing I don't color because I have everything else color coded. I am afraid that our FOH guy will get the Subgroups and the DCA'S mixed up and forget what layer he is on! Since we run a separate monitor mix on the same desk I have everything to do with that mix as the same color. And of course that color isn't used for anything but the in ears.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Pop. crackle and feedback problems

Joseph Schuurman said:
I haven't figured out how to assign matrix' yet, thank you for the suggestion, I'll see if I can figure that out rather than doing it the way I'm currently doing it, I may have some questions though (it'll be later this week, or next, though as we're currently running under bare minimum setup right now to see if we can isolate the issue. After today's test, which after 8+ hours hasn't shown the issue with just a MP3 player running as the only connected device, we'll be setting up one of our wireless mics' and 1 piano (DI'd) and 1 wired SM57, for tomorrow evenings set)
Click to expand...
Matrix is easy, just turn up the first send from main LR and assign out 12 to Matrix 1, even Select pre fader so you don't have to worry about turning the Matrix up to get a signal. You should get both left and right from Main LR to Matrix 1 when the matrixes are not linked, but I haven't actually tried. I want to stress again that you should unassign ch.32 from Main LR (ch.32 - Home - main tab) so there is no chance that you accidentally create a loop by moving the fader.

I'm not sure what you mean by Aux5&6. I believe the Aux in 5/6 are the RCA in's and that is connected to an IPOD. If I remember correctly, Aux Out 1+2 which are 1/4" TR's are going to an audio distributor, which goes to 1 PC (which does not have a return to the board), 1 MP3 Recorder (backup), 1 FM transmitter, 2 amplifiers for various rooms around the building.
Click to expand...
No problem then, it was just in case the input on aux 5/6 was the same device you were sending to.
I have had a new look around, including a look at the Amanda file, and I can't find anything that is amiss although I would probably do a couple of things slightly different. It seems reasonably well thought out though, some tweaks are possible when you get more familiar with the console.
It seem like you are not using any effects, is that right?
 
Re: Pop. crackle and feedback problems

Per Søvik said:
Matrix is easy, just turn up the first send from main LR and assign out 12 to Matrix 1, even Select pre fader so you don't have to worry about turning the Matrix up to get a signal. You should get both left and right from Main LR to Matrix 1 when the matrixes are not linked, but I haven't actually tried. I want to stress again that you should unassign ch.32 from Main LR (ch.32 - Home - main tab) so there is no chance that you accidentally create a loop by moving the fader.
Click to expand...
I'll give that a go, maybe later this week, tonight as I was setting up for tomorrow nights small set, I was surprised that all my scene files were there still after the factory reset lol... I guess it doesn't flush the scene files, just sets' the current scene file back to factory settings. But if tonight goes well (just 1 wireless mic, 1 wired mic, 1 DI'd instrument, 1 monitor, 1 aux in (ipod), and main outs), then I'll go through my existing scenes, and ensure that Main LR is unassigned in CH32 (thanks Jared for the image, that helps immensely!). After a bit of that, if the problem disappears, then I'll start trying out things like setting up the matrix.

Per Søvik said:
No problem then, it was just in case the input on aux 5/6 was the same device you were sending to.
I have had a new look around, including a look at the Amanda file, and I can't find anything that is amiss although I would probably do a couple of things slightly different. It seems reasonably well thought out though, some tweaks are possible when you get more familiar with the console.
It seem like you are not using any effects, is that right?
Click to expand...
The only reason why it doesn't have effects is because we were having these problems, so I saved out the scenes so that we'd have less changes to make to get back to a workable state, if the problem occurred. In general, we are currently just using 2 effects, 1 reverb and delay. We're experimenting with using more effects as we go, for example, I'd love to find an effect, or even compressor/eq setup that could make the bass guitar have better punch, right now it's got no presence (DI through'd), and we're having some over zealous frequencies when I push it through the sub too much (some frequencies are resonating in our room I take it)

As for colors, it's kind of a compromise, for myself, I can see what you guys are doing seems reasonable, for some other people who use the board, they like to color coordinate based on musicians, for example, yellow for the piano, vocals, monitor for a particular musician, etc.. It works reasonably well.
 
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Re: X32 Noisy Cooling Fan

John DiNicola said:
When patching this in via analog as you are now, you are adding another A/D & D/A Conversion, which introduces about 0.8 ms of latency. This means that the main mix in the monitors would be slightly behind any input channels that are also going to the same mix. While this amount of latency is hard to detect, it could cause some phase problems.
When using the XiQ iPhone app, why not make use of the MCA feature? MCAs allow you to assign as many inputs as you want to a single fader (or wheel in the case of XiQ). XiQ allows for up to 4 MCA Groups, making it easy to setup something simple like Drums, Guitars, Vocals, ME.
I have looked at your scene file and have loaded it onto my X32 but so far have not recreated your feedback issue. If you continue to have difficulties with this, please PM me so we can get you in touch with our CARE department.
Click to expand...
Thanks John, for the info, especially about the latency. I'll keep it seup how we have it, but unassign 32 from LR, and in the future investigate routing internally.

As for the MCA feature in XiQ, we use that for sure, but it's not practical for the situation where we want all the channels to be in there. Not only is it an (sorry) annoying interface to select so many channels, but they're all pre-fader (because it's setup as a monitor mix), and it's unpractical for a musician to use the XiQ app in landscape mode while actually performing. If something, say they want to hear the electric guitar on his solor, or this song the lead vocals changed, everyone would need to tweak the monitors (maybe). By routing the LR back in as a single channel, we put the reliance on the sound guy to get the mix right (which he's already doing for the live audience), but the musicians now don't need to worry about it, when the the lead vocals changes, they'll hear the boost in their monitor, when the guitar solo comes, they'll hear it in thier monitor.

Typically, we'll have one of the vertical XiQ channels for that ch32, and have it set from anywhere maybe 10% for primary musicians, and up to maybe 50% for secondary backup singers and musicians, then the other 3 are for the individual monitor mix's, say their vocal, or insturment, etc..

Also by routing the LR to monitors (a percentage of it), we get the sound from the stage sounding more like the like sound that the audience is hearing, which is a good thing for both the people on the stage but also the people near the stage (it's not as distracting hear pre-fader monitors blaring). We're transitioning into ears, but it's taking time.
 
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