Re: strange or not strange!
White noise is equal energy per frequency. Pink noise is equal energy per octave.
Eric H.
White noise is equal energy per frequency. Pink noise is equal energy per octave.
Eric H.
X32 Discussion
- Thread starter Rob Spence
- Start date
Re: strange or not strange!
First, to those of you who were so generous and looked at my scene file to help me figure out what was screwed up with my effects send and effects returns, THANK YOU SO MUCH. Your information helped me to get my effects configured correctly and obviously I no longer think there is something wrong with my X32 (I kind of figured I was the problem).
I have installed Tracktion 4 on my laptop and configured it. I have connected my laptop to my X32 using USB and configured the X32 to talk with my laptop. Then I downloaded a couple of sample multi-track files and loaded them into Tracktion. I am able to successfully play them into the board and listen with headphones. But my question is: I don't know which parameters can be changed and which cannot. For instance, if I turn a gain knob while playing back a song, the volume changes. But am I really changing the input gain or just using that knob like a fader? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that when you are sending input in through the X-UF card, you cannot change input gains. Does that mean that your input gain levels have to be correct for the X32 before you play them in? I can't figure out where I can read more about this. I want to use this method to do virtual sound checks with my band. I know I will need multi-track recordings of the band taken off the X32 but I don't understand what I can mix when playing it back. Is it everything except head amp levels?
Which leads me into my next question: I am using a USB interface between my X32 and laptop because my laptop does not have a firewire interface. However, I have a firewire interface card (Express card for my laptop). Any advantage to using that over a regular USB interface? I have the Behringer ASIO support loaded on my laptop. But I am not clear what the different adjustments on the X-UF USB control panel are. Can someone either point me to where there's more info I can read besides what's in the manual, which does not really explain how or why to adjust anything, or else explain to me the theory of adjusting those parameters? I know a little: I know you don't want dropouts so if get them you have to raise some values until they go away. But when do you raise the different ones on the control panel?
Thanks ........... Rob
Thanks ...............................................
First, to those of you who were so generous and looked at my scene file to help me figure out what was screwed up with my effects send and effects returns, THANK YOU SO MUCH. Your information helped me to get my effects configured correctly and obviously I no longer think there is something wrong with my X32 (I kind of figured I was the problem).
I have installed Tracktion 4 on my laptop and configured it. I have connected my laptop to my X32 using USB and configured the X32 to talk with my laptop. Then I downloaded a couple of sample multi-track files and loaded them into Tracktion. I am able to successfully play them into the board and listen with headphones. But my question is: I don't know which parameters can be changed and which cannot. For instance, if I turn a gain knob while playing back a song, the volume changes. But am I really changing the input gain or just using that knob like a fader? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that when you are sending input in through the X-UF card, you cannot change input gains. Does that mean that your input gain levels have to be correct for the X32 before you play them in? I can't figure out where I can read more about this. I want to use this method to do virtual sound checks with my band. I know I will need multi-track recordings of the band taken off the X32 but I don't understand what I can mix when playing it back. Is it everything except head amp levels?
Which leads me into my next question: I am using a USB interface between my X32 and laptop because my laptop does not have a firewire interface. However, I have a firewire interface card (Express card for my laptop). Any advantage to using that over a regular USB interface? I have the Behringer ASIO support loaded on my laptop. But I am not clear what the different adjustments on the X-UF USB control panel are. Can someone either point me to where there's more info I can read besides what's in the manual, which does not really explain how or why to adjust anything, or else explain to me the theory of adjusting those parameters? I know a little: I know you don't want dropouts so if get them you have to raise some values until they go away. But when do you raise the different ones on the control panel?
Thanks ........... Rob
Thanks ...............................................
Re: strange or not strange!
but the x32 is measuring Dbfs not trying to translate the readings of a vu Meter scale!
Withe Dbfs the correlation with an analogue meter/reading is simply a standard for manufacturers to follow - commonly -18Dbfs equates to 0dbu, others use -20Dbfs.
There is also the thing that the digital meter in reaper registers a constannt peak whereas the x32 meter does not appear to - both I presume measuring the same digital content.
(a peak hold on x32 wouuld be useful - they even had a variable duration one on the old ddx3216)
Nick
Sorry about typos sent from my tiny phone!
Hi Nick,
Meters can only show an instantaneous reading of a mix of frequencies being sent into the channel. By your description above, I am guessing that you hit very close to the mechanism that Behringer used to define their meter response. From here: VU meter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You can get some idea of what digital meters are attempting to duplicate
Pink noise is an uneven amplitude of different frequencies based on attempting to get an even power density output at every frequency. I would expect this to read slightly higher on a channel strip than a fixed frequency.
but the x32 is measuring Dbfs not trying to translate the readings of a vu Meter scale!
Withe Dbfs the correlation with an analogue meter/reading is simply a standard for manufacturers to follow - commonly -18Dbfs equates to 0dbu, others use -20Dbfs.
There is also the thing that the digital meter in reaper registers a constannt peak whereas the x32 meter does not appear to - both I presume measuring the same digital content.
(a peak hold on x32 wouuld be useful - they even had a variable duration one on the old ddx3216)
Nick
Sorry about typos sent from my tiny phone!
Re: strange or not strange!
When you turn the gain knob at playback, you change trim, which is +-18dB, the trim is like a playback gain.
Think of the signal chain like this: input - headamp/analog gain - ADconverter - digital trim - [recording/playback - playback trim] - gate - dynamics - eq - fader ---------
Yes, your input levels have to be reasonably correct, that is if you clip it is irreversible and if you are too low, you will lose some dynamics and s/n ratio, but being low isn't critical as you can easily afford wasting 20dB without anything but minute difference in quality.
The express card might or might not work, you just have to test it, main advantage is the ability to have smaller buffers/less latency and sometimes a more stable interface if it works properly (depending mainly on the chips in the card).
The main thing with the control panel is the buffer size, adjust up until there are no dropouts detected (and no dropouts audible on the recordings). Which buffer depends on what you are using, ASIO in most cases.
In general, this thread already contains all the answers, search and read (I know, not that straightforward)
When you turn the gain knob at playback, you change trim, which is +-18dB, the trim is like a playback gain.
Think of the signal chain like this: input - headamp/analog gain - ADconverter - digital trim - [recording/playback - playback trim] - gate - dynamics - eq - fader ---------
Yes, your input levels have to be reasonably correct, that is if you clip it is irreversible and if you are too low, you will lose some dynamics and s/n ratio, but being low isn't critical as you can easily afford wasting 20dB without anything but minute difference in quality.
The express card might or might not work, you just have to test it, main advantage is the ability to have smaller buffers/less latency and sometimes a more stable interface if it works properly (depending mainly on the chips in the card).
The main thing with the control panel is the buffer size, adjust up until there are no dropouts detected (and no dropouts audible on the recordings). Which buffer depends on what you are using, ASIO in most cases.
In general, this thread already contains all the answers, search and read (I know, not that straightforward)
Re: strange or not strange!
While a digital meter would be able to display the true level of a signal it would not make sense to a human eye. The leds would flicker like crazy and you would not be able to tell the actual levels. Therefor the digital meters somewhat emulates the mechanical properties of a mechanical vu-meter to make us humans comfortable to read the levels. There are several ways to do this.
Depending on how metering data is sampled even a digital meter may be of by as much as 6dB! This is why you can find digital meters that are true-peak in some devices and daws that over-samples the signal to get a truer reading.
According to the osc paper we can request metering data in 50mS intervals. It is resonable to think that the internal metering accesses the same mechanism internaly. According to the Berry tech guys the sampled metering data provided by the osc protocol is a current snapshot and not a sampled peak value over the 50mS period. The clip led light operates under different conditions and should alway be accurate.
This makes sense for normal operation since we are not normaly concerned about 1dB accuracy but rather if we peg the meters to clipping or if we have enough headroom. Adding the final bits of accuracy require much more dsp power and memory and is a tradeoff for other functionality.
Meters in almost any device have ballistics. In the case of mechanical vu-meters its mechanics can't cope with the fast changes of a true random signal. It has a rise and fall time lag.
While a digital meter would be able to display the true level of a signal it would not make sense to a human eye. The leds would flicker like crazy and you would not be able to tell the actual levels. Therefor the digital meters somewhat emulates the mechanical properties of a mechanical vu-meter to make us humans comfortable to read the levels. There are several ways to do this.
Depending on how metering data is sampled even a digital meter may be of by as much as 6dB! This is why you can find digital meters that are true-peak in some devices and daws that over-samples the signal to get a truer reading.
According to the osc paper we can request metering data in 50mS intervals. It is resonable to think that the internal metering accesses the same mechanism internaly. According to the Berry tech guys the sampled metering data provided by the osc protocol is a current snapshot and not a sampled peak value over the 50mS period. The clip led light operates under different conditions and should alway be accurate.
This makes sense for normal operation since we are not normaly concerned about 1dB accuracy but rather if we peg the meters to clipping or if we have enough headroom. Adding the final bits of accuracy require much more dsp power and memory and is a tradeoff for other functionality.
Re: strange or not strange!
ah!so on each pass the accuracy or non accuracy can vary!
Re: strange or not strange!
Yes and no, it will be accurate for the signal level during the sampling period, but the signal itself might have variation. Only a steady signal with no random element will measure "accurately" independent of averaging, weighing etc.
Yes and no, it will be accurate for the signal level during the sampling period, but the signal itself might have variation. Only a steady signal with no random element will measure "accurately" independent of averaging, weighing etc.
Dual Purpose Ipad
I am proposing an X32 Compact for an install that will be controlled by an Ipad. Is it possible to also have the Ipad stream Pandora or for that matter any other web app while also running the X32 control app? Will this require two routers?
I am proposing an X32 Compact for an install that will be controlled by an Ipad. Is it possible to also have the Ipad stream Pandora or for that matter any other web app while also running the X32 control app? Will this require two routers?
Re: Master/Slave X32 with X32 Compact
What's the difference between and drummer and a sound engineer? A drummer can count to four!
I'm both a sound engineer AND a drummer. Be very careful!
What's the difference between and drummer and a sound engineer? A drummer can count to four!
I'm both a sound engineer AND a drummer. Be very careful!
Re: Master/Slave X32 with X32 Compact
A drummer _and_ a sound engineer?
IMHO that will lead to good microphone purcha$e$, and a great sound
Pauly
A drummer _and_ a sound engineer?
IMHO that will lead to good microphone purcha$e$, and a great sound
Pauly
What's the difference between and drummer and a sound engineer? A drummer can count to four!
I'm both a sound engineer AND a drummer. Be very careful!
Re: strange or not strange!
When playing tracks into the X32 through the XUF card, the gain knob becomes a digital trim of +/- 18dB (+/- 12 dB previous to Firmware 1.15). Quite often you will not need to adjust this, but it is helpful if you have a very hot signal that needs to be backed down a bit. One example is when you are using the XUF card for playback of mastered songs from iTunes or the like. Sometimes without a few dB of trim these signals come into the X32 a bit hot.
What you cannot change is the original signal being played into the console. So, if there is clipping in the original recorded signal and you apply digital trim so that your input meter is not clipping, the original distortion/clipping from the source will still be present. The trim allows you to adjust gain structure so that if you are playing back 32 tracks and some are much lower in level then others, you can bring everyone to a level playing field before the signals hit the channel strips.
When multitrack recording with the XUF card, the signals are recorded "pre" channel strip, just after the mic preamps and A/D conversion.
As long as you assign each track in Tracktion to its' own output and you change the inputs on the X32's "home" page of the ROUTING menu to Card 1-8, Card 9-16, etc. you can go ahead and mix with the channel strips as if you were doing so live.
If you are not experiencing any difficulties with playback / recording (audible clicks/pops or stops in playback/recording) then you need not worry about it. If you are having issues, try increasing these levels some until the problems subside. There is no "right" setting, as it will depend on how fast your computer is, how many tracks you are using, which DAW program, etc.
When playing tracks into the X32 through the XUF card, the gain knob becomes a digital trim of +/- 18dB (+/- 12 dB previous to Firmware 1.15). Quite often you will not need to adjust this, but it is helpful if you have a very hot signal that needs to be backed down a bit. One example is when you are using the XUF card for playback of mastered songs from iTunes or the like. Sometimes without a few dB of trim these signals come into the X32 a bit hot.
What you cannot change is the original signal being played into the console. So, if there is clipping in the original recorded signal and you apply digital trim so that your input meter is not clipping, the original distortion/clipping from the source will still be present. The trim allows you to adjust gain structure so that if you are playing back 32 tracks and some are much lower in level then others, you can bring everyone to a level playing field before the signals hit the channel strips.
When multitrack recording with the XUF card, the signals are recorded "pre" channel strip, just after the mic preamps and A/D conversion.
As long as you assign each track in Tracktion to its' own output and you change the inputs on the X32's "home" page of the ROUTING menu to Card 1-8, Card 9-16, etc. you can go ahead and mix with the channel strips as if you were doing so live.
If you are not experiencing any difficulties with playback / recording (audible clicks/pops or stops in playback/recording) then you need not worry about it. If you are having issues, try increasing these levels some until the problems subside. There is no "right" setting, as it will depend on how fast your computer is, how many tracks you are using, which DAW program, etc.
Re: Master/Slave X32 with X32 Compact
You'd think so wouldn't you?
Alas, I ditched pro audio in favour of a 'real job' some seventeen years ago and then I started a video production company on the basis on the fact that the boxes I have to carry are a lot smaller and the fees are much more interesting. For the band I'm currently doing sound for, I have to rely on the mics the drummer bought and they cost at least £25.00 for the whole set. At LEAST!
The reason I bought the X32 (see how I got us back on topic there?), aside from the extensive feature list / functionality for live sound, was because it did multitrack recording through a single USB cable. That feature allows me to put three or four HD video cameras into a venue for a band and walk away with a multicam edit, 2 track desk audio, 32 track desk audio, camera atmos audio and a couple of Zoom H1 atmos recordings which in theory means I can produce a show on DVD and Blu-ray Disc that is probably good enough quality for the band to sell and certainly better than typical YouTube footage of semi pro and amateur bands. For that kind of service, I'd be looking to charge £1,500.00 and the profit in that is well over £1,000.00.
So the X32 is certainly a game changer for me. Last week I finally quit my full time job so in a few months I'll be able to put my theories to the test and see how it all works out. I'll be sure to post examples.
A drummer _and_ a sound engineer? IMHO that will lead to good microphone purcha$e$, and a great sound
You'd think so wouldn't you?
Alas, I ditched pro audio in favour of a 'real job' some seventeen years ago and then I started a video production company on the basis on the fact that the boxes I have to carry are a lot smaller and the fees are much more interesting. For the band I'm currently doing sound for, I have to rely on the mics the drummer bought and they cost at least £25.00 for the whole set. At LEAST!
The reason I bought the X32 (see how I got us back on topic there?), aside from the extensive feature list / functionality for live sound, was because it did multitrack recording through a single USB cable. That feature allows me to put three or four HD video cameras into a venue for a band and walk away with a multicam edit, 2 track desk audio, 32 track desk audio, camera atmos audio and a couple of Zoom H1 atmos recordings which in theory means I can produce a show on DVD and Blu-ray Disc that is probably good enough quality for the band to sell and certainly better than typical YouTube footage of semi pro and amateur bands. For that kind of service, I'd be looking to charge £1,500.00 and the profit in that is well over £1,000.00.
So the X32 is certainly a game changer for me. Last week I finally quit my full time job so in a few months I'll be able to put my theories to the test and see how it all works out. I'll be sure to post examples.
Re: Dual Purpose Ipad
The communication for XControl isn't very bandwidth intensive, so it should work.
The communication for XControl isn't very bandwidth intensive, so it should work.
Re: Master/Slave X32 with X32 Compact
You are in the transition phase in other words
~;-)~:wink:
What's the difference between and drummer and a sound engineer? A drummer can count to four!
I'm both a sound engineer AND a drummer. Be very careful!
You are in the transition phase in other words
~;-)~:wink:
Re: Master/Slave X32 with X32 Compact
And a sound check that goes boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom. :twisted:
A drummer _and_ a sound engineer?
IMHO that will lead to good microphone purcha$e$, and a great sound
Pauly
And a sound check that goes boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom. :twisted:
Re: strange or not strange!
I haven't played my kit for a long time. I also cheated from a pro audio perspective by investing in a Roland V-Drums kit. Ooops!
Haha. Mine don't. They start with UB40, Kingston Town. The band groan at the use of that track so it only stays on long enough to figure out whether the tops and subs are working. Then I switch to virtual sound check, recorded from the previous gig. Then I let the band play something of their choosing and I tweak away throughout their rehearsal time. Occasionally I feel the need to re-balance the drums which I will do with four examples of 'that fill' from In The Air Tonight.
If I was still using the old Soundcraft LX7 desk then obviously I wouldn't do things this way. But the feature set of the X32 just lends itself to this kind of workflow and certainly helps with stress levels for everyone involved (nothing worse than a stressed out band running late). The only thing I'm missing is some kind of SMART function or spectrum analyser and I'm quite willing to wait for v2.0 firmware for that.
You are in the transition phase in other words
I haven't played my kit for a long time. I also cheated from a pro audio perspective by investing in a Roland V-Drums kit. Ooops!
Haha. Mine don't. They start with UB40, Kingston Town. The band groan at the use of that track so it only stays on long enough to figure out whether the tops and subs are working. Then I switch to virtual sound check, recorded from the previous gig. Then I let the band play something of their choosing and I tweak away throughout their rehearsal time. Occasionally I feel the need to re-balance the drums which I will do with four examples of 'that fill' from In The Air Tonight.
If I was still using the old Soundcraft LX7 desk then obviously I wouldn't do things this way. But the feature set of the X32 just lends itself to this kind of workflow and certainly helps with stress levels for everyone involved (nothing worse than a stressed out band running late). The only thing I'm missing is some kind of SMART function or spectrum analyser and I'm quite willing to wait for v2.0 firmware for that.
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Re: strange or not strange!
The LED meters next to the screen have a peak hold, but I believe the hold duration is fixed.
Eric H.
The LED meters next to the screen have a peak hold, but I believe the hold duration is fixed.
Eric H.
Re: strange or not strange!
do they? If so v short duration & haven't noticed any significant hold duration - maybe a little more than on meters screen!
do they? If so v short duration & haven't noticed any significant hold duration - maybe a little more than on meters screen!
Re: strange or not strange!
For the Smaart component,what is the wish list? Is there a better approach than what Presonus is providing, I am interested what the forum thinks is acceptable or even realistically possible with a limited Smaart capability? I want to believe that FFT measuring can be made from in the box, but would like to hear this debated for the pros and cons..secondly I would like to see what suggestions everyone has for the developers at Behringer to what can be done to build on what the Presonus measurement approach is doing....
For the Smaart component,what is the wish list? Is there a better approach than what Presonus is providing, I am interested what the forum thinks is acceptable or even realistically possible with a limited Smaart capability? I want to believe that FFT measuring can be made from in the box, but would like to hear this debated for the pros and cons..secondly I would like to see what suggestions everyone has for the developers at Behringer to what can be done to build on what the Presonus measurement approach is doing....