X32 Discussion

[John Chiara]

Re: X32 Discussion

I do mainly live recording on location so I thought I would share my recording setup which has worked perfectly. I bought a used Macbook Pro (which is about 5 years old) on eBay for about $450 and installed Reaper ($60). I can record 32 tracks from x32 via firewire to MB Pro...no problems. Then I bring the MB Pro back to the studio and export the tracks to wave files and transfer them to a flash drive (fat32 only) and bring that over to the desktop and do the mixing there on DAW (Protools or Cubase).

Mike

I am doing the same and am about to get an external drive I can format for both Mac and PC and skip the Flash Drive transfer step.

This is the longest part of the process.

 

[William Kueppers]

Re: X32 Discussion

My understanding has been that the reason people favored Firewire over USB for audio recording is that USB suffers from the lack of a "traffic cop"/controller...essentially operating something like an ethernet hub (not a router). In a hub operation, all attached devices vie for access to the hub. When 2 devices try to access at the same time, they detect the "data collision" and both shut up for some time period then re-attempt to access the hub. It's these collisions and "reset" times (I dont know the actual technical term) that make USB slower than Firewire which does have an active traffic cop type controller.

I think I'd also read somewhere that USB has to access hardware level stuff (real memory, disk drives etc...) via a pci interface layer whereas Firewire could do direct memory access and directly read/write to hard drives. Not sure about this though.

Karl let me shed some light on this. First we all know that traffic cops are poor traffic controllers. We also know that Dictatorships are very efficient. USB is a master/slave (host/client) protocol up to V3. There is no arbitration which I think you have confused with CSMA/CD a Ethernet protocol. USB has nothing to do with it. USB was originally for slow devices such as keyboards, mice, and printers. It provided a deterministic minimum response time for devices via round robin service. It has evolved over time to deal with faster data rates (v3.1 at 10Gbps) and somewhat different usage such as OTG (host arbitration) and other specialized uses. I'm surprised that the USB Audio spec has never been used extensively by companies. It's been around for a long time. Concepts have been copied of course. I believe that the Fruit and M$ think they have a better mousetrap (make that a cash cow lock in).
On to Firewire or the serial SCSI (Shugart origin) protocol. It was designed for high speed large amounts of data transfer off disc's etc. It is a peer to peer protocol for more intelligent devices and eliminates the involvement of the processor (CPU) for the bulk of the job by using DMA ( direct memory access). This (DMA) and the low overhead and priorty levels (isochronous data transfer for audio) give it the edge. Speed has also been improved over time. Hardware arbitration makes the traffic cop part fast. I hope this has helped clarify the differences without too much boring detail and I have run down and buried the traffic cop.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 Discussion

I am doing the same and am about to get an external drive I can format for both Mac and PC and skip the Flash Drive transfer step.

This is the longest part of the process.

It is my understanding that the combination of multichannel sound interfaces and external drives on the Macs is a bad idea because they compete for the same communication resources.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: X32 Discussion

It is my understanding that the combination of multichannel sound interfaces and external drives on the Macs is a bad idea because they compete for the same communication resources.

Per, I was not aware of that. I have dozens of multitrack projects in the can with X32--MacBook via FW--Toshiba external 5600 rpm USB drive. Usually 16-24 tracks. Not a glitch yet.

 

[William Kueppers]

Re: X32 Discussion

Since your using FW and USB there is nothing common and as experienced works just fine. USB multitrack and and a USB drive may be a challenge but 2.0 or better yet 3.0 should still be no problem at high speed (480Bps or higher).

 

[Tim Ringgenberg]

Re: X32 Discussion

It is my understanding that the combination of multichannel sound interfaces and external drives on the Macs is a bad idea because they compete for the same communication resources.

I too have done a lot of recordings on my MBP to an external drive, a LaCie 1TB. Out of the desk with usb and to the harddrive via firewire 800. I have done as many as 26 tracks for an hour at a time for a band during their gig. I am using protools 10 at this time.

 

[Chris Wadden]

Re: X32 Discussion

I have a question and I'm hoping to get some opinions.

I often think about the recording process, and the best ways to go about it. I guess I sometimes try to think of treating Pro Tools like a virtual tape machine with the X32. We've talked about how "round trip monitoring" is a bad idea, or at least less than ideal. So the recommended approach is to monitor off the desk.

Let's say I'm recording a band, and have already tracked drums, in which all headphone mixes were from the board and had little to no latency, now when the bass player goes to track his parts against the drums, how is the timing affected by him hearing his bass "pre Pro Tools"? Will there be alightment issues? Is there a delay being applied to his drum mix from the software which is not applied to his incoming signal? Does that make any sense?

The other thing I consider is this. Is there an advantage either way to creating the headphone drum mix in Pro Tools, then simply returning that to a stereo set of tracks which are then bussed to the performers headphones? Or, more like a true tape machine setup, return each track individually to a track of the x32 and create a mix from there?

Any insight would be appreciated, and if there is any needed clarification about what I'm asking about, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: X32 Discussion

Most daw's compensate for recording latency. It is my understanding that protools doesn't provide latency compensation, at least not for plugins.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 Discussion

I too have done a lot of recordings on my MBP to an external drive, a LaCie 1TB. Out of the desk with usb and to the harddrive via firewire 800. I have done as many as 26 tracks for an hour at a time for a band during their gig. I am using protools 10 at this time.

Yes, it would only apply to using the same interface for both, and I know that FW hard drive + FW XUF is a no-no. Probably having the card and a hard-drive share USB would be quite bad as well.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 Discussion

<snip>Any insight would be appreciated, and if there is any needed clarification about what I'm asking about, please let me know. Thanks.

In general, it is best to create the monitoring mix on the performer side of the interface, since there will not be any real latency issues.

Any new takes will have a delay compared to the takes used for monitoring off, this delay will be equal to the round trip time. A trick that works all the time to establish the round trip time is to run a recorded click-track into the singers headphones, and put the headphones over the mike to record some clicks. From this recording it is easy to establish how much latency there is by comparing the recorded track with the original track. Once the latency is established, it is a matter of post take shifting every new track by the established amount. There are no practical issues with having a fairly long latency as long as round-trip monitoring is avoided.
It doesn't really matter where you create the mix off the recorded material, doing it in DAW will save some channels on the interface and on the mixer and is often the preferred way for small studio/home studio setups where some resources are limited.
I don't know ProTools, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a way to set it to do automatic post-take-alignment.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: X32 Discussion

A lot of things about Pro Tools surprises me....

 

[Randy Martin]

X32-Q app problem..

Ok well it seems i have a little issue using the X32-Q APP on my iphone and a few other we use with the x32.
When using the app its works great but as you get further away from the wifi signal of course the iphone will lag
and it will catch back up but as you scroll thru the pages on the iphone using the app its lag will reboot the desk..

Tryed this with diffrent iphones and the same issue. I don't know is any other users are having this problem but give it a try and see if it will reboot your x32..

Take your iphone app and get a little distance from your wifi router and get it to lag a little and then scroll they the app real fast thru the pages and see if it will reboot your desk and
if it does then the app has like a buffer overflow issue or something that make the x32 reboot.

Now if that was at a job and the happened i would of got fired from job with that happening...

I haven't change out my wifi router cause it doesn't happen with the ipad only the Iphone X32-Q app..

Behringer need to take a better look at the app its a very nice app but has a couple of big bugs in it that need to be addressed..

Randy

 

[Chris Wadden]

Re: X32-Q app problem..

if it does then the app has like a buffer overflow issue or something that make the x32 reboot.

You've actually had your X32 crash due to the app lag? That's insanity. I use the app all day to control the PA volume at a shop I work at. I only control a pair of mixbusses, so I don't do much else that's taxing.

Lag is one thing, it's not great but you can deal with it. Console crashes are unacceptable. Anyone else having issues like that?

 

[Randy Martin]

Re: X32-Q app problem..

You've actually had your X32 crash due to the app lag? That's insanity. I use the app all day to control the PA volume at a shop I work at. I only control a pair of mixbusses, so I don't do much else that's taxing.

Lag is one thing, it's not great but you can deal with it. Console crashes are unacceptable. Anyone else having issues like that?

Its only the Iphone x32-Q app the ipad app works fine the x32-q app if im right only works the monitor sends and levels not the main PA level's

its the one causing the x32 to reboot once you get some distance from the router you start getting lag and soon as you start getting that scroll thru the pages with the iphone sideways so you get more of the faders and scroll thru it really fast and it will be laging and then the desk reboots..

craziest thing i ever seen..

randy

 

[Antoon van den Oetelaar]

Re: X32-Q app problem..

Iits the one causing the x32 to reboot once you get some distance from the router you start getting lag and soon as you start getting that scroll thru the pages with the iphone sideways so you get more of the faders and scroll thru it really fast and it will be laging and then the desk reboots..

You can repeat this behaviour each time?
Do you need more distance from the router to make this happen? How far?
If it's repeatable I think the behringer guys are very interested in this. Strange that no one else did mention this before...
Or are you scrolling like no other idiot tries. 8O~8-O~:shock::lol:

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32-Q app problem..

You can repeat this behaviour each time?
Do you need more distance from the router to make this happen? How far?
If it's repeatable I think the behringer guys are very interested in this. Strange that no one else did mention this before...
Or are you scrolling like no other idiot tries. 8O~8-O~:shock::lol:

It seems a bit extreme "There is a bug with this car, it crashes when I jerk the wheel violently at speed" :?~:-?~:???:

Then again, since one might be giving a lot of people access to do their monitor mix, one never knows what to expect, so it needs to be quite idiot proof.

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: X32-Q app problem..

It seems a bit extreme "There is a bug with this car, it crashes when I jerk the wheel violently at speed" :?~:-?~:???:

Then again, since one might be giving a lot of people access to do their monitor mix, one never knows what to expect, so it needs to be quite idiot proof.

I'm not sure how to test this alone since I won't be able to watch my desk at the same time.

I can see two possible scenarios here.

The x32 recieves uncomplete/corrupt/malformed messages that triggers a reboot.

The app connects/disconnects so fast and many times that some kind of DoS occurs, crashing the network stack.

Again, a log using wireshark would probably be useful. It would be a little bit more difficult to setup since you'll need a passive switch or a proxy. Last time I saw passive switches was with 10Mb switches...

 

[Han Klein Haneveld]

Another X-UF card problem

Coming back after a weekend away, my X-UF card seems to be broken. :?~:-?~:???:
Lots of cracks and disturbance.

A quick inspection learned that the wrong led was lighted. Although conected FiWi, the USB led was lit and the configuration screen showed USB interface active. There was not even a USB cable connected! After changing the interface back to FiWi, all the indications were ok, but the sound just as bad.

I had already noticed, for some weeks, that the interface only works at 48.0 sample rate. I have the idea that this is after the update Windows 8.0 > 8.1.

Now I installed the USB driver. That works, but also only at 48.0!

Is this problem similar to yours, Misja?

 

[Han Klein Haneveld]

Re: Another X-UF card problem

Although I must have other Firewire cables somewhere, I could not find them. So instead of another cable, I tried another laptop. It just sounds fine. ~~:smile:
Now I know where to look for this problem.

Remaining problem: Why can't I use 44.1 kHz sample rate with Windows 8.1?

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: Another X-UF card problem

Remaining problem: Why can't I use 44.1 kHz sample rate with Windows 8.1?

This is probably because the windows audio sub system is claiming the x32 interface in 48k. You'll need to tweak those settings or make sure that the x32 isn't your default playback device for windows audio.

The x32 can do both asio and wdm at the same time but the sample rate must match. I've asked other sound card manufacturers to give an option to disable wdm to avoid conflicts like this, but no one so far has responded.