X32 Discussion

Re: X32 v2 RTA

Mike Pyle said:
That discussion has continued for some time on the LAB forum:
behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
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Thanks for the link, Mike, will look.

I'll try to power S16 from the same power strip as X32 next time, running long 3-prong extension cord along CAT5 snake. This in theory should give me a needed solid conductor between X32 and S16 metal chassis (a ground wire in extension cord), thus draining all possible static charges between them. We'll see.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Arik Semagin said:
Thanks for the link, Mike, will look.

I'll try to power S16 from the same power strip as X32 next time, running long 3-prong extension cord along CAT5 snake. This in theory should give me a needed solid conductor between X32 and S16 metal chassis (a ground wire in extension cord), thus draining all possible static charges between them. We'll see.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, the answer to that statement seems to be "Sorry, not really."

Read the whole thread that Mike cited.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
My only unresolved problem has to do with the connection and proximity to a Kramer 729 switcher/scaler. I think the two emit so much EMF that they are causing issues. When the two are connected together and/or located next to each other, there is a swell of noise that occurs out of the blue. There is no hum. There is just a slow swell of noise that comes and then goes for a bit. It swells again, then stays for a while, then goes. I sent a Behringer guy a video and they said it was not an X32 issue, which may be true. The X32 has been tech'd twice, has had mods and a firmware update. The Kramer was sent back and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Both units perform to spec on their own, but not well together. Anyone have a similar issue?
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What is the nature of the noise? A hum or ticking or buzz or "computer modem"?

I've noted that the X32 is extremely resistant to external EMI/RFI interference. I suspect a faulty cable is picking up your noise.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Aaron Hammett said:
What is the nature of the noise? A hum or ticking or buzz or "computer modem"?

I've noted that the X32 is extremely resistant to external EMI/RFI interference. I suspect a faulty cable is picking up your noise.
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+1

Many times problems like these are cable related. Sometimes it's a good cable gone bad or simply a cheap cable. I am not familiar with the Kramer 729. If audio passes through it, see if you can strip the audio off upstream and go directly to the mixer. You can compensate for frame sync on the inputs of the X32. This is probably easier said than done depending on your sources/resources.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Rob Spence said:
An RTA is not a dual channel FFT analyzer. Stop saying they are similar. They are not.
You are confused as to the various tools.
SMAART does include an RTA along with many other functions.

From what I have read here, it seems that what the V2 firmware includes is a Spectrograph (or waterfall display).

At no time have I seen anyone with knowledge state anything about the inclusion of a dual (or multi) channel FFT analyzer.
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I wonder if Behringer plans to include more or less full SMAART in their X32-Edit app, kind of Presonus did with their SL package. I didn't work with that one (sold my SL 24.4.2 before it came out), but seems like it has more features. Any opinions on that?
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
Nope, connected or not, the noise happens. When the two pieces are plugged in and turned on next to each other, this happens. There is no audio coming from the VP729 now. Apple supports analog audio out when using HDMI. That is how they are getting audio to the X32.
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HDMI is all-digital standard, there's no analog audio coming through it. HDMI :: Resources :: FAQ
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Arik Semagin said:
I wonder if Behringer plans to include more or less full SMAART in their X32-Edit app, kind of Presonus did with their SL package. I didn't work with that one (sold my SL 24.4.2 before it came out), but seems like it has more features. Any opinions on that?
Click to expand...
Presonus licensed the technology from Rational Acoustics, but even then, Presonus' implementation of Smaart is confined to a single-channel type measurements (RTA and spectrograph) that are smoothed to a lower resolution, along with a few cool setup wizards to guide a person through the process including setting delay speakers. Think of it as a stripped down version Smaart JR without any bells and whistles. It has enough capability to give an operator some very rudimentary tools for simple tasks, and to whet someone's appetite for buying a full working version of Smaart if they want to dig deeper into dual channel measurements. The same can be said of the Smaart Tools I addon app in the iOS Audio Tools suite. Great for soloing up a channel and looking at it's spectrum, spotting trends, looking for feedback squeaks, monitoring SPL, nothing more. Want to measure intelligibility, room acoustics, impedance, distortion, speaker polarity, voltage level, etc? There's another app and/or electronic device to make that possible.

No doubt anyone with enough coding experience and science know how can whip together a simple FFT tool (there are plenty out there, some crappy, some pretty good), but to have it display something useful and meaningful in our context as audio professionals is no easy feat. Rational has been in existence for over 5 years, with well over a decade of prior intellectual work to build on. Smaart didn't happen overnight, in fact some of the algorithms used are a result of a LOT of refinement over a long period of time (and still being tweaked to this day). Same applies to SysTune, SATLive, Wavecapture, ARTA, SIM, etc. To expect the equivalent from a manufacturer like Presonus or Behringer to be built into what's left of the DSP engine in a mixing console in the period of time of it's short development cycle is unrealistic. This is why Presonus was wise enough to get a third party to do their's, and not tie up the console's DSP to make it possible. Same with Digidesign and their analysis plugin. Same with Allen & Heath and their little RTA app. My hat's off to Behringer in making it happen in a limited fashion within the console's custom operating system and whatever DSP resources were left, that is no easy feat!

As I mentioned previously in this thread, if you expect a level of analysis that is the equivalent of the full version Smaart, it's best to buy it as a separate tool and run it on a separate computer that can supply the horsepower and resources needed to make it happen. Heck, the X32 could make for a great multi-channel Smaart interface via ASIO/CoreAudio!
 
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Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
Dude. Butt out. If you cannot read a post, do not reply.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Apple sends video from the HDMI connector and audio from the analog output. You do not need an audio de-embedder with the Apple.

To be specific, HDMI is the interface. That is what the I in HDMI stands for. It is not an A/V digital standard. We don't record, edit or broadcast in HDMI.
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Chill dude.

Your post was not clear as to how the audio was being connected.


Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
i thought it was pretty clear.
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Yes, you say. However, there was no information as to how the audio was connected. The only reference to connections was HDMI.

Edit: I just went back to read your original post about noise relating to the Kramer.
There was no mention of a computer. Apple is a company, not a device. So, I still fail to see an explanation of how the audio from the "Apple" is connected.
/end edit

I am not picking a fight but simply explaining that I and perhaps others did not understand. I still don't.

This is a forum. You don't get to say who may reply. Rather than telling someone to butt out, perhaps consider that they thought they were being helpful. People try to help here. Lack of detail in a post asking for help is the leading cause of unhelpful replies.


Sent from my iPad HD
 
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Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
Well Rob, since I said the Apple was sending analog audio and that is how the X32 was getting it, it was plain. Since we all know that the X32 does not do video, does not have HDMI inputs or the ability to extract audio, I think it was plain as day.

I gave all the detail anyone needs. Two devices, plugged into AC, sitting next to each other = noise. That's it. No other cables. Nothing else to know. I didn't need a quote about HDMI being digital. No kiddin'. Has nothing to do with this.
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I guess I don't know what an Apple is and how YOU are getting audio from it to wherever you are sending it. The detail matters if the answer matters.

If there are no other cables than the AC, then what does Apple have to do with it?

I agree YOU think it is plain as day but you could have clarified things in less time than you have argued that all information was present.

I am done here. Another candidate for the iggy list.



Sent from my iPad HD
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
I did an install with the first gen consoles, followed the documentation, installed 157' of UTP to the S16s, had a similar problem, found a document on-line (that I cannot find now) which stated AES50 requires STP. I went back to the church, pulled new STP and those problems went away. Eventually the X32 was returned twice for other issues. I posted the fix maybe here or somewhere else, a Behringer rep corrected me, stating they do NOT require STP. I wish I could find that doc again. It might have been a preliminary doc, who knows?

Now, we have this huge Lab thread about the same thing, the young kid over there (who has had to be corrected by posters about basics in speaker wiring and such) was telling everyone to use UTP cable, when it should be STP cable. Classic.

It happens.

My only unresolved problem has to do with the connection and proximity to a Kramer 729 switcher/scaler. I think the two emit so much EMF that they are causing issues. When the two are connected together and/or located next to each other, there is a swell of noise that occurs out of the blue. There is no hum. There is just a slow swell of noise that comes and then goes for a bit. It swells again, then stays for a while, then goes. I sent a Behringer guy a video and they said it was not an X32 issue, which may be true. The X32 has been tech'd twice, has had mods and a firmware update. The Kramer was sent back and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Both units perform to spec on their own, but not well together. Anyone have a similar issue?
Click to expand...

I am unclear how you are using the 729. If I understand you, all you have to do is plug it in and it causes the X32 to output noise.

IMHO the noise can either be due to EMI, or due to noise being generated on the power lines that the X32 is picking up. I have run my X32 Rack on a noisy generator and not had any output noise issues that were noticeable, but I wasn't exactly monitoring for it either.

Try connecting the 729 to a circuit different from the X32 and see if the noise persists. If it does, then you have only limited options. You could construct your own faraday cage around the 729 and ground the cage. That should effectively eliminate any EMI from the 729.

I have had the same experience as other here. My X32 has been very quiet even in very noisy environments (both EMI and power variations).
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Rob Spence said:
To continue, perhaps there is confusion between HDMI and DVI? While the digital parts are compatible, there is a DVI-A version which has an extra 4 pins for analog.

This isn't directed to Arik.
Sent from my iPad HD
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DVI has a few different iterations. No DVI includes audio. DVI only sends video in RGB format. HDMI has the option for YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2.

DVI (Dual Link) supports higher resolutions than HDMI.

DVI also has the ability to include analog VGA video in the same connector, using additional pins. Generally speaking, the device you conned to would be either DVI or VGA, and the right adaptor is all you need. Most cards would not drive 2 displays off of the same connector.

The HDMI standard has NO Analog capabilities whatsoever. All transport is digital. If you're using the analog audio output from a computer, remember that this is an UNBALANCED audio signal, and as such, much more susceptible to noise than a good quality balanced signal. Using a different audio card may solve the issue. Of course, then you also have to worry about timing issues, but most audio cards today shouldn't be an issue.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Brent Handy said:
Moving to a different circuit would not matter. All circuits are on the same leg/same phase. The building is single phase. The AV system has a star ground. The 729 was performing video switching duties. For the moment, the VP729 is not used. When this gets figured out, we will put it back into service. Since the church has ProPresenter, they have resorted to using the computer to play back all audio and video.
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If you are fairly confident that the noise is caused by EMF from the 729, wrap it in tin foil. :D~:-D~:grin:
 
X32 Pink Noise and RTA loop-back

At the risk of sounding ungrateful (again)...

I routed Pink Noise to Bus 1 at -12, looped Output 1 back to Channel 1 with a short XLR, set the channel gain to zero, and fired up the RTA on the EQ page.

Both the bargraph and spectrograph display are all over the place. Random bubbling and certainly nowhere near flat.

I made the route internally (selecting Bus 1 as the physical input for Channel 1) and it looked exactly the same, so it's not an analog I/O degradation.

Again, intuitively, I guess I expected a perfectly flat (or at least straight and stable) line, certainly with the digital connection if not quite with the analog one.

Am I doing something wrong?
 
Re: X32 Pink Noise and RTA loop-back

Simon Eves said:
At the risk of sounding ungrateful (again)...

I routed Pink Noise to Bus 1 at -12, looped Output 1 back to Channel 1 with a short XLR, set the channel gain to zero, and fired up the RTA on the EQ page.

Both the bargraph and spectrograph display are all over the place. Random bubbling and certainly nowhere near flat.

I made the route internally (selecting Bus 1 as the physical input for Channel 1) and it looked exactly the same, so it's not an analog I/O degradation.

Again, intuitively, I guess I expected a perfectly flat (or at least straight and stable) line, certainly with the digital connection if not quite with the analog one.

Am I doing something wrong?
Click to expand...
Without having seen the interface, is there a way of increasing the size of the average buffer?
 
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