X32 Discussion

Re: X32 Pink Noise and RTA loop-back

At the risk of sounding ungrateful (again)...

I routed Pink Noise to Bus 1 at -12, looped Output 1 back to Channel 1 with a short XLR, set the channel gain to zero, and fired up the RTA on the EQ page.

Both the bargraph and spectrograph display are all over the place. Random bubbling and certainly nowhere near flat.

I made the route internally (selecting Bus 1 as the physical input for Channel 1) and it looked exactly the same, so it's not an analog I/O degradation.

Again, intuitively, I guess I expected a perfectly flat (or at least straight and stable) line, certainly with the digital connection if not quite with the analog one.

Am I doing something wrong?

We really need someone else to try and reproduce what you are describing. I would do it if I had access to an X32
 
Re: X32 Pink Noise and RTA loop-back

At the risk of sounding ungrateful (again)...I routed Pink Noise to Bus 1 at -12, looped Output 1 back to Channel 1 with a short XLR, set the channel gain to zero, and fired up the RTA on the EQ page.Both the bargraph and spectrograph display are all over the place. Random bubbling and certainly nowhere near flat.I made the route internally (selecting Bus 1 as the physical input for Channel 1) and it looked exactly the same, so it's not an analog I/O degradation.Again, intuitively, I guess I expected a perfectly flat (or at least straight and stable) line, certainly with the digital connection if not quite with the analog one.Am I doing something wrong?
Hi Simon,

I posted exactly the same comment when I took a brief look at the RTA feature the other day. One issue is that it's seemingly sampling the data too quickly - it could do with the option to average it over a short period. Another is that (when I tried it at least!) there's a definite upwards curve in dB higher up the frequency spectrum for some reason. I did mean to put a pink noise WAV file on a USB stick and try that, but I've not had a chance yet. Also, if you route the oscillator to Main L, for some reason the RTA shows the peaks around 5dB higher than if you route it to Bus 1 (with everything set to unity gain obviously). Just a curiosity more than anything!

In the interests of refinement for the final release of V2 - on the rotary encoder for the fader volume for Main L/R (which I doubt ever gets used, but even so!)... it's so precise that you can select between -0.0 and +0.0!
 
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Re: X32 Pink Noise and RTA loop-back

I posted exactly the same comment when I took a brief look at the RTA feature the other day. One issue is that it's seemingly sampling the data too quickly - it could do with the option to average it over a short period. Another is that (when I tried it at least!) there's a definite upwards curve in dB higher up the frequency spectrum for some reason. I did mean to put a pink noise WAV file on a USB stick and try that, but I've not had a chance yet. Also, if you route the oscillator to Main L, for some reason the RTA shows the peaks around 5dB higher than if you route it to Bus 1 (with everything set to unity gain obviously). Just a curiosity more than anything!

The Auto-Gain is on by default, and misleading because the scale doesn't move (as I reported a page or so ago). I hadn't noticed any mismatch between different routings, but I only played with it for ten minutes.

It could certainly use the ability to change the averaging period, as long as there's enough DSP memory for this. Probably. It's just one channel, after all (does it do a mono mix first if you assign it to a stereo path?)

In the interests of refinement for the final release of V2 - on the rotary encoder for the fader volume for Main L/R (which I doubt ever gets used, but even so!)... it's so precise that you can select between -0.0 and +0.0!

Oh, it's always done that! ...and I quite often use the knob to get it to *exactly* 0.0 (because I'm OCD like that)
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Dear Per,

The Midas DL251 will work in conjunction with the X32. However a Midas console won't work with the S16 stage box due to the 96 kHz requirements.


Well I have a problem with such configuration. The signal appears on inputs and outputs, I can change the gain, but I cannot activate phantom power. Where's the bug?
I need to use my DL251 tommorow on the gig, have some condenser microphones and active diboxes, so phanotm would be usable, and using extra notebook to activate phantom power is not the best solution.

Did anyone met such problem?

Btw - hallo to all of you - it's nice to meet you.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Well I have a problem with such configuration. The signal appears on inputs and outputs, I can change the gain, but I cannot activate phantom power. Where's the bug?
I need to use my DL251 tommorow on the gig, have some condenser microphones and active diboxes, so phanotm would be usable, and using extra notebook to activate phantom power is not the best solution.

Did anyone met such problem?

Btw - hallo to all of you - it's nice to meet you.
From my understanding the dl251 wasn't fully compatible with the x32 and that they are working on it.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Dude. Butt out. If you cannot read a post, do not reply.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Apple sends video from the HDMI connector and audio from the analog output. You do not need an audio de-embedder with the Apple.

To be specific, HDMI is the interface. That is what the I in HDMI stands for. It is not an A/V digital standard. We don't record, edit or broadcast in HDMI.

Dude, what Apple product you are referring too? All new MacBooks have HDMI and analog audio out (headphone jack), but never meant to be used together (the only case is if you want to hook it up to some analog PA directly (home stereo or conference room speakers), instead of taking audio from the TV or LCD projector). Hook up your MacBook to TV via HDMI only, you'll get both video AND audio.

Apple TV box has only HDMI and optical audio out (both are digital). There's no analog audio there at all! Optical is secondary audio source, no need to use it with HDMI-enabled TV.

Sorry for being rude, but your remark is plain stupid.

Where the F. I stated that HDMI is an A/V standard? It is the interface, read the FAQ. My point was that audio and video over HDMI are both digital, there are no analog audio flowing through it.
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

From my understanding the dl251 wasn't fully compatible with the x32 and that they are working on it.

To Jacek, Robert and everyone who has both X32 and DL251 in posession: Since Behringer/MIDAS only states that they are "compatible" (but apparently not 100%), can you guys run some compatibility tests and post here what's working and what's not? Like that phantom power issue.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Moving to a different circuit would not matter. All circuits are on the same leg/same phase. The building is single phase. The AV system has a star ground. The 729 was performing video switching duties. For the moment, the VP729 is not used. When this gets figured out, we will put it back into service. Since the church has ProPresenter, they have resorted to using the computer to play back all audio and video.

Wrong. They are not. Sorry for stating known facts, but:

"Single-phase" building (single-family house for example) has four wires coming in after the utility company transformer (referring to North American 120V system):
- one hot (phase) wire, black
- another hot (phase) wire, red
- Neutral wire (white)
- Ground wire (green)

You get 120V between one of hots and neutral. Between two hots you'll get 240V (plus or minus, your electric range, dryer and things like that).

Black and Red are NOT on the same leg/phase. It's usually recommended to use the same leg/phase for sound equipment (and another for lighting). But you never assume that if the outlets are in the same single-phase building, then they are on the same phase.

Practical way to test it is to measure voltage between hot terminals of outlets in question. Near-zero means they are on the same phase, something above 200V means they are not.

TJ, please correct me if I'm wrong. I was doing commercial electrical work years ago, so I believe I know a thing or two about electricity in the buildings.
 
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Re: X32 v2 RTA

Wrong. They are not. Sorry for stating known facts, but:

"Single-phase" building (single-family house for example) has four wires everywhere (referring to North American 120V system):
- one hot (phase) wire, black
- another hot (phase) wire, red
- Neutral wire (white)
- Ground wire (green)

You get 120V between one of hots and neutral. Between two hots you'll get 208V (actually anywhere between 200 and 230, your electric range, dryer and things like that).

Black and Red are NOT on the same leg/phase. It's usually recommended to use the same leg/phase for sound equipment (and another for lighting). But you never assume that if the outlets are in the same single-phase building, then they are on the same phase.

Practical way to test it is to measure voltage between hot terminals of outlets in question. Near-zero means they are on the same phase, something above 200V means they are not.

TJ, please correct me if I'm wrong. I was doing commercial electrical work years ago, so I believe I know a thing or two about electricity in the buildings.

Just can't stand people making obviously wrong statements here.

I have to disagree. The "single" phase is from the electrical power grid, and goes to a transformer before it is connected to a building. The 2 hot legs are both on that single phase, but are of opposite polarity and voltage because of the transformer. If the voltage across the 2 hot legs is only 208V you should contact your utility, because it should be about 240V. 208V is the voltage across 2 of the phases of a 3Ø service, which are 120º of phase rotation apart from each other, so sum to 208V rather than the 240V of a single phase service.

Single phase service as in domestic buildings is not derived from the 3 phase service that may be in commercial buildings, and using only 2 hot legs of a 3Ø service does not make it single phase.

I can't stand people making obviously wrong statements here either.

Mac
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

I have to disagree. The "single" phase is from the electrical power grid, and goes to a transformer before it is connected to a building. The 2 hot legs are both on that single phase, but are of opposite polarity and voltage because of the transformer. If the voltage across the 2 hot legs is only 208V you should contact your utility, because it should be about 240V. 208V is the voltage across 2 of the phases of a 3Ø service, which are 120º of phase rotation apart from each other, so sum to 208V rather than the 240V of a single phase service.

Yes, it's 240V nominal voltage, I was referring to actual readings I saw, but for sound equipment purposes they are not on the same phase. Then why keeping sound and lighting on different legs is recommended?

Most of commercial buildings are 3-phase anyway, so staying on the same leg will be important.

Thank you for a note. I apologize for "dude" and "stupid" remarks before. We are on technical forum here, not a bullying contest, and I appreciate everyone's input.
 
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Re: X32 v2 RTA

Then why keeping sound and lighting on different legs is recommended?

Because they will not influence each other much. (In case of no 3-phase motors etc.)

If you have only one leg, best is to connect both separate as close as possible to the main supply of the building, at that point the impedance of the mains supply is the lowest.
Better get it at the neighbours...

To better understand the differnce you can also put 300 feet thin cable in between and then connect both light and sound. That way you are getting the distorsion of the light more easily into the sound.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Well, it's not necessary or even common to have sound and lights on separate "hot legs." Nor is it necessary to have these services on separate transformers.... as an Arena Electrician I find several different setups: in our old county arena each company switch has its own transformer; in our new country arena, 1 big transformer for each corner of the arena supplies multiple company switches/disconnects - 2ea 400A 120/208 6 wire services (double neutral) and 4 ea. 200A 120/208v 6 wire services. In 4+ years we've connected video, audio, lighting and carpentry automation to these services without interference or incident.

The 120/240v "single phase" is more correctly "split phase" because it's a center tapped secondary, with the center tap (neutral) bonded to grounding electrode system. Mac's definition of the term "single phase" meaning how the step down transformer is powered is the correct usage.

I suggest Richard Cadena's book "Electricity for the Entertainment Electrician and Technician" be added to your library.
 
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Re: X32 v2 RTA

Wrong. They are not. Sorry for stating known facts, but:

"Single-phase" building (single-family house for example) has four wires coming in after the utility company transformer (referring to North American 120V system):
- one hot (phase) wire, black
- another hot (phase) wire, red
- Neutral wire (white)
- Ground wire (green)

You get 120V between one of hots and neutral. Between two hots you'll get 240V (plus or minus, your electric range, dryer and things like that).

Black and Red are NOT on the same leg/phase. It's usually recommended to use the same leg/phase for sound equipment (and another for lighting). But you never assume that if the outlets are in the same single-phase building, then they are on the same phase.

Practical way to test it is to measure voltage between hot terminals of outlets in question. Near-zero means they are on the same phase, something above 200V means they are not.

TJ, please correct me if I'm wrong. I was doing commercial electrical work years ago, so I believe I know a thing or two about electricity in the buildings.

Arik, I can't even begin to explain how wrong that post was. First and foremost, you don't know the extent of his particular building wiring better than he does, and you're making assumptions about the kind of power he is being delivered. Furthermore, the two hot wires are actually inverses of each other, which is why we get 240V as well as 120V in our homes, but not typically 208V. This has nothing to do with the same leg/phase you are referring to. I am not gonna sit here and correct your post any further because I've got to get up and work on other things, but you're seriously lacking in your facts and this time I just couldn't laugh to myself.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

Because they will not influence each other much. (In case of no 3-phase motors etc.)

You guys are both right. Yes, technically speaking it's a single-phase system, rather be called a split-phase system. But for sound equipment purposes it's better to treat them as separate phases, to keep interference to a minimum (pretty common recommendation). I usually do same-phase check only if there's audible interference. If possible, I try to run my own 10/3 SO cords straight from the panel on 30A breakers, gives me kind of mini-distros with no grounding or phase problems. Thanks for the note, Tim, I never wired arena-sized sound rigs (did mostly commercial and industrial stuff), so you may be right.

Enough of this, thanks to everybody, let's go back to X32.
 
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Re: X32 v2 RTA

Yes, it's 240V nominal voltage, I was referring to actual readings I saw, but for sound equipment purposes they are not on the same phase. Then why keeping sound and lighting on different legs is recommended?

Most of commercial buildings are 3-phase anyway, so staying on the same leg will be important.

Thank you for a note. I apologize for "dude" and "stupid" remarks before. We are on technical forum here, not a bullying contest, and I appreciate everyone's input.

Note - I got distracted/delayed in the middle of typing this, and others have covered some of the ground here already.




Mac is correct, though confusion in this arena is somewhat understandable, since terminology and scope are confusing.

Power is generated in 3 phases, and in broad strokes, is distributed around the country in 3 phases. At some point, mostly in residential and light commercial areas, the 3 phase branch circuit is split around the neighborhood, with the last mile transformers operating off one of the supply phases on the primary side; the secondary side is a center-tapped winding, creating two hot legs 180° out of phase and/or polarity (interchangable in this particular case). Whether you call this single phase or two-phase is mostly a matter of semantics and convention. It's definitely single-phase-derived, however the result is definitely two-phase as seen on an oscilloscope. Once again, there's more similarity than difference between true 3-phase power and "two-phase" power, as by the time you and I see it, we are seeing the result of multiple transformers, and whether we have 3 legs 120° apart or 2 legs 180° apart doesn't make a lot of difference to single-phase loads (single-phase in this context being defined as devices requiring one hot and one neutral).

All of that is fairly academic. The kicker here is "does it make any difference whether things are supplied from the same phase or not?" The answer is: ~~Drumroll please~~ generally not much. Even loads separated on different "phases" share the same neutral wire and ground wire if they are fed from the same transformer, so they are really not that separate. To get true separation, you need multiple services derived from multiple transformers, with complicated ground scenarios, and even then you can still get goofed up with induced noise from wires in proximity to other wires and/or noise sources.

I haven't read the thread and haven't followed the situation at hand, but the short answer is that no, it's not generally recommended to separate lighting and audio on different phases. It's generally better to balance the load on all phases, which reduces neutral current and stress on the infrastructure from phase imbalnces, and to deal with noise issues other ways.
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

X32 simply can not remote controll right now the gain of the DL251. Neither the phantom power. Period.
there is a remote controll software on KT''s ftp site, which allows for PC remote controll all of the functions of the DL251 however.
(i was not able to work with it, as the DL251 was not responding to the software somehow)
i did a quick ABC listening test in our studio with a DL251 how it sounds in comparison to the onboard X32 mic preamps...
all I can tell: even the Clock from DL251 (@48k) makes the system sound better, and the DL251 preamps are sounding also much better (much near to the quality of the reference signal) than the X32 onboard preamps. I think, this difference would be alone worth of the extra 2500 USD (for an M32) not to mention the pro series faders and the ergonomic design.
of course this is my subjective experience.

cheers,
Tamas
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

X32 simply can not remote controll right now the gain of the DL251. Neither the phantom power. Period.
there is a remote controll software on KT''s ftp site, which allows for PC remote controll all of the functions of the DL251 however.
(i was not able to work with it, as the DL251 was not responding to the software somehow)
i did a quick ABC listening test in our studio with a DL251 how it sounds in comparison to the onboard X32 mic preamps...
all I can tell: even the Clock from DL251 (@48k) makes the system sound better, and the DL251 preamps are sounding also much better (much near to the quality of the reference signal) than the X32 onboard preamps. I think, this difference would be alone worth of the extra 2500 USD (for an M32) not to mention the pro series faders and the ergonomic design.
of course this is my subjective experience.

cheers,
Tamas

So how did you separate the analog preamp signal and monitor it before it went to the AD converter and through the rest of the signal chain?

Curious as to the techniques involved...
 
Re: X32 v2 RTA

X32 simply can not remote controll right now the gain of the DL251. Neither the phantom power. Period.
there is a remote controll software on KT''s ftp site, which allows for PC remote controll all of the functions of the DL251 however.
(i was not able to work with it, as the DL251 was not responding to the software somehow)
i did a quick ABC listening test in our studio with a DL251 how it sounds in comparison to the onboard X32 mic preamps...
all I can tell: even the Clock from DL251 (@48k) makes the system sound better, and the DL251 preamps are sounding also much better (much near to the quality of the reference signal) than the X32 onboard preamps. I think, this difference would be alone worth of the extra 2500 USD (for an M32) not to mention the pro series faders and the ergonomic design.
of course this is my subjective experience.

cheers,
Tamas

Tamas,
I am able to control the preamp gain and phantom power on my DL251 from my X32 on channels 1-24 and mutes on the 16 outputs. I can't control gain or phantom on channels 25-32 yet and am wondering what I am doing wrong. I am waiting for a response on the matter from Kyle Chirnside from Midas. Anyway, on the X32 you should see an icon of the DL251 in the AES50 window.

JP