X32 Discussion

[Dan Mortensen]

"What is Dynamic Range" video

Hi All,

Although not specifically relevant to the X32, the subject of dynamic range is a useful one to understand, probably more so for recording than for live sound.

The Pacific Northwest Section of the Audio Engineering Society had a meeting in January in which James D. Johnston (JJ) presented his thoughts about the subject, and I videotaped it and finished editing it (while learning Final Cut ProX in the process) and it's now on YouTube for your delectation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruSjIWuHFF0

JJ is one of the world's foremost experts on the hearing mechanism and is a super-smart guy, and IMO it is always a joy to get to listen to him. I must have listened to this presentation 50 times while editing it, and always heard something new or realized the depth of a throw-away line, of which there are many profound ones in this video.

It's titled "What is Dynamic Range?", and he almost tells more of what it isn't than what it is. He introduces a way that you can process music clips using a script that he wrote for Octave (sort of a free version of Matlab) and views the resulting graphs and histograms of some sample songs which are a pretty good indicator of presence or lack of dynamic range.

He also mentions a way to get the equivalent of 10db of perceived bass response by adding about 2db of energy, which makes me think of the new Sub Octaver effect in the X32 an wonder if that's kind of the same thing. If so, that is neat (I haven't used that effect yet).

That's actually a good way to get back on topic: anybody know exactly what the Sub Octaver does? From its name, I'd guess it adds a new fundamental an octave lower? Or maybe it does something else?

FYI, regarding the video, the audio recordist saw the lav mic power was off but chose not to do anything about it, so the soundtrack is room mics but audible and still mostly intelligible (all but maybe a couple bits).

It was fun to make, I learned a lot so the next ones should be better, and I hope you find it enjoyable.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Rhythm Delay

I don't really see what the big commotion is about. You don't have super-human reflexes to be able to nail something within 1ms anyway, so who cares if it's averaged? Unless you're so horrendously off on your first two taps in the first place, the averaging isn't going to make it any worse.

The averaging is going to give you a far more accurate number (down to the ms) than you could ever achieve without it. That's just basic physics, not opinion.

Ok, one more time...I am going to walk you thru this.
First and most important...NO OTHER TAP DELAY WORKS THIS WAY!!!
If that doesn't clear the fog....try this.
I am mixing on a iPad...song ends...I mute my reverb and delay DCA's
and go to my effects page where my tap delay is waiting. The song starts...with a drummer count off or otherwise... I tap accordingly....band comes in....tempo doesn't match...happens all the time... I have to wait until the averaging cycle passes... Too long while the band is playing...I need to tap again....hopefully getting it right on the first taps or I have to wait thru ANOTHER cycle. Or...I may start tapping half notes and then decide I want quarter notes...I can't continue tapping a new tempo because it gets AVERAGED with the previous taps. Now I have to wait AGAIN until ANOTHER averaging cycle passes....see the pile up happening?
Then I leave the effects page, unmute my verbs and delays and then start to mix the song. Same thing if I want to change the tap tempo during the song.
All this averaging malarkey does is extend the time I have to WAIT to do what I already know how to do.
There is NO reason to average anything. If I tap more than twice I am doing it to get MORE accurate with my taps...the averaging sabotages this very process. Again, no other tap delay that I have used in the last 20 years worked like this.
The X32 is a tool that replaces a whole bunch of processors...I want it to replace my outboard tap delay.....directly. I have mixed nearly 5000 shows and the present tap delay function inhibits my style.
Kick drum goes on ch 1.....

 

[Matthew Merkle]

Re: Rhythm Delay

I get that it aggravates you, but your process is clearly not working in the first place if you constantly have to correct it every <3 seconds. By the way, since you brought it up, it's a logical fallacy to assume that since you've done something 5000 times, that it's the best way of doing it.

A. Just because the tempo changes doesn't mean you can't just keep tapping anyway. In fact, I can picture the averaging making the transition from incorrect to correct tempo less jarring for some effects.
B. The whole point of averaging is to assist you when you're not getting it right, because no one is ever going to perfectly time a tempo 100% of the time.
C. If you absolutely have to have a workaround: only tested with X32-Edit, but if you adjust the time on a delay (via rotaries, either on the FX page or assignables) it cancels the averaging so you can immediately tap it out again.

In the end, this isn't the only piece of equipment to use this (in fact the circuitry for 3-tap averaging is extremely common in itself), and I doubt they're going to change it now after this many revisions. If it doesn't work for you, then perhaps you need to find equipment that does and stick with it.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Rhythm Delay

I get that it aggravates you, but your process is clearly not working in the first place if you constantly have to correct it every <3 seconds. By the way, since you brought it up, it's a logical fallacy to assume that since you've done something 5000 times, that it's the best way of doing it.

A. Just because the tempo changes doesn't mean you can't just keep tapping anyway. In fact, I can picture the averaging making the transition from incorrect to correct tempo less jarring for some effects.
B. The whole point of averaging is to assist you when you're not getting it right, because no one is ever going to perfectly time a tempo 100% of the time.
C. If you absolutely have to have a workaround: only tested with X32-Edit, but if you adjust the time on a delay (via rotaries, either on the FX page or assignables) it cancels the averaging so you can immediately tap it out again.

In the end, this isn't the only piece of equipment to use this (in fact the circuitry for 3-tap averaging is extremely common in itself), and I doubt they're going to change it now after this many revisions. If it doesn't work for you, then perhaps you need to find equipment that does and stick with it.

Maybe but.... If you take into account my first point the way I have been doing it is normal. It ALWAYS has worked EXACTLY as I wanted it too. I don't need the machine helping me. It's like having auto tune that you can't turn off!

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Rhythm Delay

I get that it aggravates you, but your process is clearly not working in the first place if you constantly have to correct it every <3 seconds. By the way, since you brought it up, it's a logical fallacy to assume that since you've done something 5000 times, that it's the best way of doing it.

A. Just because the tempo changes doesn't mean you can't just keep tapping anyway. In fact, I can picture the averaging making the transition from incorrect to correct tempo less jarring for some effects.
B. The whole point of averaging is to assist you when you're not getting it right, because no one is ever going to perfectly time a tempo 100% of the time.
C. If you absolutely have to have a workaround: only tested with X32-Edit, but if you adjust the time on a delay (via rotaries, either on the FX page or assignables) it cancels the averaging so you can immediately tap it out again.

In the end, this isn't the only piece of equipment to use this (in fact the circuitry for 3-tap averaging is extremely common in itself), and I doubt they're going to change it now after this many revisions. If it doesn't work for you, then perhaps you need to find equipment that does and stick with it.

No, Matt, you don't get it. I don't care if there is a "better way". I want it to work the way every other tap tempo device has worked since 1988. It's a matter of work flow, which is a valid reason to want things a certain way. Making the average a user option shouldn't be some kind of Really Big Deal.

Go back and re-read:

The song starts...with a drummer count off or otherwise... I tap accordingly....band comes in....tempo doesn't match...happens all the time... I have to wait until the averaging cycle passes... Too long while the band is playing...I need to tap again....hopefully getting it right on the first taps or I have to wait thru ANOTHER cycle. Or...I may start tapping half notes and then decide I want quarter notes...I can't continue tapping a new tempo because it gets AVERAGED with the previous taps. Now I have to wait AGAIN until ANOTHER averaging cycle passes....see the pile up happening?

Mr. Chiara puts its very succinctly. I don't care if averaging is "better" because averaging doesn't fit the reality of the work I have to do. If I can't retap the tempo when the guitarist comes in late or the drummer decides to speed up after the count off, the feature is pointless to me. Look at the complaints about the Scene management system and 100 scene limit: changes were made to accommodate customer needs and I submit that was much heavier lifting than making tap averaging switchable.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Rhythm Delay

I get that it aggravates you, but your process is clearly not working in the first place if you constantly have to correct it every <3 seconds. By the way, since you brought it up, it's a logical fallacy to assume that since you've done something 5000 times, that it's the best way of doing it.

With all due respect, do you really think it's appropriate to tell experienced people what the best way is to do their work?

You are certainly free to suggest alternate methods to achieve a result, but it's clearly up to the individual to decide what works for them and what doesn't. A product that doesn't work for them doesn't work for them. If its methodology is different than every other single product on the market to the point where use of it yields repeated wrong results, then yes, the one that has worked right 5000 times is the correct one and the one that doesn't fit expectations is the wrong one.

John's explanation above makes perfect sense why averaging is NOT the way to go for a large number of likely situations, so that seems settled to me.

And it's nice that you have an opinion, but they have opinions, too, and theirs is right for them and yours isn't.

The guy I referred to earlier about the video (JJ) has done another talk about loudness, in which he explains that it is a perceptual phenomenon and not a measureable phenomenon like SPL. People's opinions about what is too loud or too soft are right, because it is subjective, and no amount of arguing will change their perception, and your or my opinion carries no more weight than theirs. It may take a while to understand that as audio practioners, but that is what it boils down to. (A three sentence summary of an hour-long talk.)

This discussion is analogous to that one.

FWIW I felt in 1.15 that I was having goofy tap time results and thought it was me. I don't do tap tempos very often so it could very well be me, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Pauly Mel]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi me again ;-)

Now I have the following...
Small monitors on outs 15 and 16
Large monitors on outs 13 & 14
Subs on 11 and 12

...and thanks to you guys help, I load snippets to listen to the large or small monitors.

Ok... Question;
I'd like to insert a stereo equaliser across the small monitors, and another across the large, as they each have an individual response. - I have been able to insert an eq over the monitor out, but can I so that for each pair of outputs?

Thanks
Pauly

Being able to specify every possible permutation of what you could possibly have in a snippet would get very complicated very quickly. Already, the snippet generation allows you to get very detailed with the stuff that one would normally change during a show, and complicating it further would need multiple screens and a way too cumbersome interface for everyday use.
An offline snippet editor would probably be feasible, maybe as a part of X32-Edit, but I wouldn't bet on that ever happening.

One gets to a point where in-depth understanding of what is going on is necessary to detailize snippets, and some testing is needed to make sure there are no ill effects, and while opening up a .snp file in Wordpad is hardly geek-territory, maybe some things are better left out of the mainstream?

 

[Rodney Bates]

Re: X32 Discussion

Can anyone think of a decent way to cover this scenario on an X32..?

(Musical Theatre Show)

16 input channels taken up by radio mics, all feeding Main LR, with a DCA assigned to quickly control them as a whole if required. Also all with a post-fader send to a bus which is then sent to a selection of Band Mon buses, so that the monitors only have the vocal channels which are live in the FOH mix.

I'm happy with that bit, I've used that set-up in the past.

Sections of the show require (during the same scene) individual cast members to say bits of script, then all to say another line, two to say another line, all of them to sing, back to one individual line, etc. This is literally in the space of a few seconds - not the traditional lines of script and then all go into a nice song at the end...

In an ideal world, I'd like to mix the individual vocal mics using the input faders, and then have a pre-fader 'group' of all the vocal channels which I can then pull up for the chorus bits of script and singing. Basically, I won't have time to quickly fade up 15 separate input faders every time the cast have a line together. So I'd like control of them all individually as normal, but then a quick way to have the whole cast live too. Oh and I'd like to keep the vocals in stereo too

The only thing I've come up with so far is having a pre-fader send from all the input channels to a 'Chorus' bus, so then regardless of the state of the input faders, I can instantly get all the mics live (and I'll just have to take care adjusting the gains for each mic at sound check, to keep them all fairly level). I lose the stereo spread that way though A Sub Group won't work, because then I can't quickly mix the individual lines.

Anyone got any better ideas?! If any of that makes sense to people..!

if you assign all mics to a single dca then adjust the single lines individually for just that scene. Or alternatively a series of snippets which set the levels you require step by step.

 

[Peter Howarth]

Re: X32 Discussion

if you assign all mics to a single dca then adjust the single lines individually for just that scene.

If he does that, then mutes/fades out the DCA when the chorus aren't saying their communal lines, the individual mics who are still speaking won't work.

Or alternatively a series of snippets which set the levels you require step by step.

Daniel, have you used Cues yet, on v1 or v2 firmware?

You scenario is one huge part of the reasoning for buying our X32 earlier this month. Musical Theatre with 23 radio mics, 4 overhead stage mics, and 2-3 stereo SFX inputs (PC, CD).

My dad (producer who runs sound during the shows) just about copes with most entrance/exits as radio mics come on/off, but he misses at least three somewhere in the script every night.

By pre-programming the Radio Mic entry/exits into cues, specifically using snippets for mutes only now we've got v2, he only has to hit 'Go' to deal with all of them; I can then choose whether to include SFX and overhead mics in those snippets or not.

Peter


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Rodney Bates]

Re: X32 Discussion

If he does that, then mutes/fades out the DCA when the chorus aren't saying their communal lines, the individual mics who are still speaking won't work.



Sent from my iPhone

In that situation I would simply boost the single line by 6 db and leave the others open. But then all of my radio mics have a 12db gate on them so they can stay open without causing issues.

 

[Rodney Bates]

Re: X32 Discussion

If he does that, then mutes/fades out the DCA when the chorus aren't saying their communal lines, the individual mics who are still speaking won't work.



Daniel, have you used Cues yet, on v1 or v2 firmware?

You scenario is one huge part of the reasoning for buying our X32 earlier this month. Musical Theatre with 23 radio mics, 4 overhead stage mics, and 2-3 stereo SFX inputs (PC, CD).

My dad (producer who runs sound during the shows) just about copes with most entrance/exits as radio mics come on/off, but he misses at least three somewhere in the script every night.

By pre-programming the Radio Mic entry/exits into cues, specifically using snippets for mutes only now we've got v2, he only has to hit 'Go' to deal with all of them; I can then choose whether to include SFX and overhead mics in those snippets or not.

Peter


Sent from my iPhone

In that situation I would simply boost the single line by 6 db and leave the others open. But then all of my radio mics have a 12db gate on them so they can stay open without causing issues.

 

[Tim Padrick]

Re: X32 Discussion

Can anyone think of a decent way to cover this scenario on an X32..?

(Musical Theatre Show)

16 input channels taken up by radio mics, all feeding Main LR, with a DCA assigned to quickly control them as a whole if required. Also all with a post-fader send to a bus which is then sent to a selection of Band Mon buses, so that the monitors only have the vocal channels which are live in the FOH mix.

I'm happy with that bit, I've used that set-up in the past.

Sections of the show require (during the same scene) individual cast members to say bits of script, then all to say another line, two to say another line, all of them to sing, back to one individual line, etc. This is literally in the space of a few seconds - not the traditional lines of script and then all go into a nice song at the end...

In an ideal world, I'd like to mix the individual vocal mics using the input faders, and then have a pre-fader 'group' of all the vocal channels which I can then pull up for the chorus bits of script and singing. Basically, I won't have time to quickly fade up 15 separate input faders every time the cast have a line together. So I'd like control of them all individually as normal, but then a quick way to have the whole cast live too. Oh and I'd like to keep the vocals in stereo too

The only thing I've come up with so far is having a pre-fader send from all the input channels to a 'Chorus' bus, so then regardless of the state of the input faders, I can instantly get all the mics live (and I'll just have to take care adjusting the gains for each mic at sound check, to keep them all fairly level). I lose the stereo spread that way though A Sub Group won't work, because then I can't quickly mix the individual lines.

Anyone got any better ideas?! If any of that makes sense to people..!

You likely don't need to kill anyone - a 10dB drop will likely do.

Put Everyone on a DCA. Put the Chorus on a DCA. Put the Solos on a DCA.

If you pull Everyone down 10, and push Solos up 10, Solos are at unity and all others are down 10. You can mix and match who is up and who is down.

 

[Pauly Mel]

Re: Rhythm Delay

Hi Matthew,

mate, it's clear that you've not had to tap tempo for a live band that may tend to wander a little as they get excited. The solution to your dilemma ( of thinking you have the correct answer, when numerous seasoned professionals are telling you otherwise) is to make a date with an x32, mixing a live band, and you tap the tempo for a delay or some such. Forget physics, forget theory, forget a testing lab - go and do it for real.
You will be enlightened I guarantee it.

thanks
pauly

I get that it aggravates you, but your process is clearly not working in the first place if you constantly have to correct it every <3 seconds. By the way, since you brought it up, it's a logical fallacy to assume that since you've done something 5000 times, that it's the best way of doing it.

A. Just because the tempo changes doesn't mean you can't just keep tapping anyway. In fact, I can picture the averaging making the transition from incorrect to correct tempo less jarring for some effects.
B. The whole point of averaging is to assist you when you're not getting it right, because no one is ever going to perfectly time a tempo 100% of the time.
C. If you absolutely have to have a workaround: only tested with X32-Edit, but if you adjust the time on a delay (via rotaries, either on the FX page or assignables) it cancels the averaging so you can immediately tap it out again.

In the end, this isn't the only piece of equipment to use this (in fact the circuitry for 3-tap averaging is extremely common in itself), and I doubt they're going to change it now after this many revisions. If it doesn't work for you, then perhaps you need to find equipment that does and stick with it.

 

[Matthew Merkle]

Re: Rhythm Delay

Hi Matthew,

mate, it's clear that you've not had to tap tempo for a live band that may tend to wander a little as they get excited. The solution to your dilemma ( of thinking you have the correct answer, when numerous seasoned professionals are telling you otherwise) is to make a date with an x32, mixing a live band, and you tap the tempo for a delay or some such. Forget physics, forget theory, forget a testing lab - go and do it for real.
You will be enlightened I guarantee it.

thanks
pauly

Anytime someone tells me to "forget physics" I automatically shut off my brain and stop caring. The amount of vitriol over that post is honestly disappointing and unmerited. If you don't like the concept, that's fine, but bandwagoning is a great way to kill a community from the inside out. I offered an explanation for his issue, a reason why it's that way, and a workaround to help him. No one got past the first point and that's also disappointing. I'll learn my lesson in not assisting people on this forum from this point forward.

 

[Pauly Mel]

Re: Rhythm Delay

Hi Matthew,
pity you take it that way - no vitriol, and no bad intentions from my post. I was just hoping you may try it for real and discover the unpredictable nature of timing in a live environment. If you close your mind... Well you're a smart guy - you know what happens!

Hope you change your mind and help people anyway.
pauly

Anytime someone tells me to "forget physics" I automatically shut off my brain and stop caring. The amount of vitriol over that post is honestly disappointing and unmerited. If you don't like the concept, that's fine, but bandwagoning is a great way to kill a community from the inside out. I offered an explanation for his issue, a reason why it's that way, and a workaround to help him. No one got past the first point and that's also disappointing. I'll learn my lesson in not assisting people on this forum from this point forward.

 

[Simon Eves]

Re: X32 Discussion

Sections of the show require (during the same scene) individual cast members to say bits of script, then all to say another line, two to say another line, all of them to sing, back to one individual line, etc. This is literally in the space of a few seconds - not the traditional lines of script and then all go into a nice song at the end.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you need, but can this not be done by using multiple DCAs?

Put ALL the vocals in one (which you have already done) and then put all except the leads in another. Then you just have to pull the second one down for the leads-only parts. Even if you have different combinations of leads singing each leads-only bit, just use more DCAs. Each one becomes the cut for whoever's NOT singing each leads-only part.

e.g.

Everybody sings
Singers 1 & 2 sing
Everybody sings
Singers 3 & 4 sing
Everybody sings
etc.

Put 1-16 in DCA1, 3-16 in DCA2, and 1, 2, 5-16 in DCA3

Everybody sings -> all DCAs up
Singers 1 & 2 sing -> pull down DCA2
Everybody sings -> all DCAs up
Singers 3 & 4 sing -> pull down DCA3
Everybody sings -> all DCAs up

---

Sorry, I managed to write this having gone straight from the summary e-mail to the penultimate page of the thread without realizing there was another page on which a bunch of other people had replied. A few people already suggested using multiple DCAs, but maybe my method will still be useful if the leads are changing (your description wasn't clear on that). I also concur that you don't need to take the "everybody else" channels all the way down, just enough to avoid combing.

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Rhythm Delay

Anytime someone tells me to "forget physics" I automatically shut off my brain and stop caring. The amount of vitriol over that post is honestly disappointing and unmerited. If you don't like the concept, that's fine, but bandwagoning is a great way to kill a community from the inside out. I offered an explanation for his issue, a reason why it's that way, and a workaround to help him. No one got past the first point and that's also disappointing. I'll learn my lesson in not assisting people on this forum from this point forward.

Sorry you took our responses that way. You have not responded with anything that negates any of the real world situations we have all described. We say 'forget physics' when the 'physics' are not producing usable results... I might rephrase that as 'reconsider the physics'....a least from the perspective you are taking. The 'physics' in this case are just some programmers 'idea of a good idea'....as I say in so many situations!
When we tap, we assume we will get more accurate as we continue....the X32 just needs to let that happen and all of us old guys will be happy.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Rhythm Delay

This tapping discussion has left me a bit exasperated, but I'll not get into that. I just hope we can agree on the stipulation that it works as designed, and that the way it is designed might not be to everyone's liking. While I at times rather like the averaging, and would like to see it kept as an option, I have to agree with those who suggest that the last two taps should be at least an option if not the standard setting. I'm sure that if we can stop the "namecalling" and ask nicely, the Behringer developers will be able to implement that for us.
Also, the depression/release timing reference should probably either change to depression or be selectable, as that would make prolonged tapping far more tolerable both for tired fingers and for the hardware.

 

[Timo Ulkuniemi]

Re: Rhythm Delay

AMEN

The Point has been expressed SO CLEARLY , that if anybody does not get it - please do not try to convince us "old dogs" that we should relearn what has been good for us for decades.

For Behringer team - if averaging can be switchable, then those two or three who wish to use it can do so while rest of us don´t :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: X32 Discussion

o. W. P nw was. w w wwo on in of

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD