X32 Discussion

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Just to rephrase my last post though, my confusion is more in how there is any hiss at all coming when the channel is muted and faders are down. So, purely for knowledge, are the faders and mutes all just digital 1's and 0's not being passed to the D/A converter, while the mixer itself is actually sending a full gain signal at all times?

Hi Daniel,

I haven't thought of it in quite those terms nor do I know for sure, but from an operational standpoint I think the way you've described it is consistent with my guessing of how it is working. That makes sense to me in that the hiss doesn't change no matter the console output level. Or, a more flattering way to put it might be that the amplification chain is so quiet that the residual noise is all you ever hear.

Their amps that I've used (NU4-6000 and NU-6000 no DSP) are also hissy for my taste when turned full up with no input, but turning them down a few notches still leaves plenty of gain for my purposes and they sound great to my taste. And to others who are listening to them at my gigs.

The whole Behringer product constellation that I've tried (not all models, certainly) are a balance between great sound, low cost, and some features that are not perfect but are generally more than good enough. (I've not used or heard any of the speakers, I'm kind of spoken for in that area.)

Dunno if that helps you or not.

 

[Will Daracunas]

Re: X32 Discussion

Just to rephrase my last post though, my confusion is more in how there is any hiss at all coming when the channel is muted and faders are down. So, purely for knowledge, are the faders and mutes all just digital 1's and 0's not being passed to the D/A converter, while the mixer itself is actually sending a full gain signal at all times?

-Daniel

Something that you might check is if by chance the bus send is set to any of the prefader options. That wss a problem I had with my bus sends.
Will Daracunas
Sequim SDA Church media services lead

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

Something that you might check is if by chance the bus send is set to any of the prefader options. That wss a problem I had with my bus sends.
Will Daracunas
Sequim SDA Church media services lead

Hi Will,
Thanks for you reply. This is an interesting thought! I went to check my console and see if this may be the case, but I'm new to digital mixers in general so I'm not exactly sure where to check for this...
Basically I have the Master L/R being sent to XLR outputs 7/8. Any channel that I choose to send to the Master L/R bus is what would be sent to the speakers. I cannot seem to find a pre/post fader option on the Master L/R bus.
Am I looking at this the wrong way?

Thanks!
-Daniel

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

Ok, I think I may have found what you meant.
It doesn't seem to have made any difference in the hiss level (which I should reiterate isn't horrible, just a bit louder than I would expect for a muted master).

Here's what I did: I selected every bus channel and made sure that they were set to post fader, with the exception of the 13-16 fx buses. Those are currently set to IN. When I set them to post I'm not getting my fx back on those channels. Is there a more elegant way to route the fx? I see a bank button dedicated to some stereo "FX Returns", but I'm not sure I understand their role in relation to buses 13-16.

Thanks!
-Daniel

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Ok, I think I may have found what you meant.
It doesn't seem to have made any difference in the hiss level (which I should reiterate isn't horrible, just a bit louder than I would expect for a muted master).

Here's what I did: I selected every bus channel and made sure that they were set to post fader, with the exception of the 13-16 fx buses. Those are currently set to IN. When I set them to post I'm not getting my fx back on those channels. Is there a more elegant way to route the fx? I see a bank button dedicated to some stereo "FX Returns", but I'm not sure I understand their role in relation to buses 13-16.

Thanks!
-Daniel

Does your L/R level change when you adjust the L/R master fader? If so then it's set to post fader. If not, then it's set to pre.

Since that's a pretty obvious issue (no control over L/R level except by channel/DCA faders) I would think you'd notice pretty quickly.

Edit: Why are you on 7/8 as your L/R outs? Are you on a Rack? The default for the full console is 15/16 and I would think everyone has left it there rather than fight uphill, but what do I know? Maybe 7/8 makes sense in some way.

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

Does your L/R level change when you adjust the L/R master fader? If so then it's set to post fader. If not, then it's set to pre.

Since that's a pretty obvious issue (no control over L/R level except by channel/DCA faders) I would think you'd notice pretty quickly.

Edit: Why are you on 7/8 as your L/R outs? Are you on a Rack? The default for the full console is 15/16 and I would think everyone has left it there rather than fight uphill, but what do I know? Maybe 7/8 makes sense in some way.

Hi Dan!
Thanks for the reply. Yes, my master fader does in fact control the level being sent to the Mackie's, so it is indeed post fader.
I'm embarrassed I didn't catch that simple fact.

As for the 7/8 ouputs as master, I'm on a Compact -- I actually initially wired it up with my master outs as 15/16, but then I noticed the silkscreen labels on the back of the console designated 7/8 as the master outs. I didn't know if there was a particular reason, so I just went with Behringer's designation.

Thanks!
-Daniel

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

As a separate question that I can't seem to find an answer to by searching --

I have one scene setup. When my console boots up, it loads my only saved scene.
However, even though the scene loads up perfectly fine, the active fader bank isn't recalled as I left it.
For instance, if I had my right hand bank of faders set to bus 1-4, they always seem to recall with the DCA's as the active fader bank.

Is there anyway for it to boot to exactly the fader bank I left it on?
Thanks!
-Daniel

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Is there anyway for it to boot to exactly the fader bank I left it on?

Not that I've found. It always boots up with DCA's selected, just like it boots up with the top level of inputs selected.

Interesting/weird about 7/8 being default L/R on the Compact. I've never seen one, so don't know anything about it. I figured it was just smaller, this is an actual functional difference.

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

Not that I've found. It always boots up with DCA's selected, just like it boots up with the top level of inputs selected.

Interesting! I thought maybe I just wasn't saving the scene right... the other thing it doesn't seem to save is my selection for the C bank on the assign buttons. Maybe loading a scene with the last active fader banks and last active assign button bank is something that could be an option in a future update.

Best,
-Daniel

 

[Luis Reynaldo Corcino A]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hello! I tried searching through the thread but its so large. I would like to know if its possible to link two X32s and use one as a monitor desk in the stage, where all the instruments connect and a second desk with the second x32 as FOH, receiving all the data from the x32 on stage via Aes50. If its possible, have someone written instructions on how to do it? I can't seem to find them anywere. Thanks for the answers!

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hello! I tried searching through the thread but its so large. I would like to know if its possible to link two X32s and use one as a monitor desk in the stage, where all the instruments connect and a second desk with the second x32 as FOH, receiving all the data from the x32 on stage via Aes50. If its possible, have someone written instructions on how to do it? I can't seem to find them anywere. Thanks for the answers!

Hi Luis,

Yes, you can do exactly that.

Regardless of how large the thread is, use the Search function in the upper right side of your browser when viewing the thread and type in a search term like "How to set up X32 as a monitor console" or "Dedicated Monitor Console" or "HA Split".

There is basic discussion on page 252 about how to wire and set up a monitor console. Keep in mind that it was written for earlier firmware and has aspects that no longer are relevant.

Current variation on that advice is on page 432 (I'm on page 537 now, in case you have your viewing preference set for more or fewer posts per page than I do). It's too bad the search function doesn't maintain the post numbering so you can go to a specific post instead of a page.

And section 5.11 of the X32 Wiki talks about it as well http://behringerwiki.music-group.co..._I_share_signals_over_AES50_Supermac_network?

Hope this helps.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Re: X32 Discussion

Interesting! I thought maybe I just wasn't saving the scene right... the other thing it doesn't seem to save is my selection for the C bank on the assign buttons. Maybe loading a scene with the last active fader banks and last active assign button bank is something that could be an option in a future update.

Well, from the viewpoint of the board, all of the pages of each of those groups is visible at all times; that they need to be paginated is a concession of the physical hardware to cost and space; that's why which page you're looking at isn't saved in the scene/snippet/whatever. I suspect "current Selected channel" isn't saved either, also being an artifact of the UI which doesn't affect the sound.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Re: X32 Discussion

Here's what I did: I selected every bus channel and made sure that they were set to post fader, with the exception of the 13-16 fx buses. Those are currently set to IN. When I set them to post I'm not getting my fx back on those channels. Is there a more elegant way to route the fx? I see a bank button dedicated to some stereo "FX Returns", but I'm not sure I understand their role in relation to buses 13-16.

Let me recap, just quickly, how effects work (and hopefully, I won't myself screw it up), and hopefully it will help you get a handle on this. Some to most of this, you may already know.

On a sound board, effects can be used in two ways -- the effects themselves fall into two categories:

There are effects, like compressors, eq, and such, which are "series" effects: because of how they work, you have to patch them into a channel insert point, and they only affect that one channel (or bus).

Other effects, like reverb, are "parallel" effects; you can feed a collection of sources or busses all into the same effect strip if you want them all to have the same effect applied to them. These are generally fed from a bus or "send" on the board, and their output returns ... *somewhere* so you can route it to the mains.

On the x32, you have 8 stereo effects slots.

All 8 can be inserted into an insert point in some channel or bus.

The 4 on the left, 1-4, can also be used as parallel or "side-chain" effects, where a bus feeds their input, and the output returns on the right half of Page 3 of the left/inputs side of the desk.

When you use them this way, each channel's feed to the effect is controlled by the Send 1-8 knobs for that channel, the master send to the effect is the Bus 1-8 masters on Page 2 of the right side of the desk, and the outputs of those effects return, as noted above, as faders on the left side of the desk, in the same place that the channel inputs come in. (Traditional small desks had few to no dedicated returns for your effects, and if they did, they didn't have full input-strip control.)

So that Page 3 "Effects Return" bank is the master return level for the signal coming out of the effects units; if those faders are down, you won't hear your effects. It's possible that if you set an insert point on those channels, the board will mute the returns to prevent feedback, though I haven't tested that.

I wouldn't expect it to affect your noise floor, though.

To address your earlier question: It is likely that the output gain control is all digital, in the signal presented to the DAC, yes. If that's the contributing factor to your noise, either your x32 has a hardware problem, or your input gain on the power amps is *way* too high -- and if it needs to be that high, it's possible you're not running the desk hot enough.

I'm not sure how new you are to mixing live sound from your posts, Daniel, but you may simply be not doing your gain-staging properly. Generally, you want to turn your mains up just a couple clicks, feed a signal to the board that comes up about, say, -18 to -12 average by adjusting the channel gain/pad, then adjust the channel to Unity along with any intermediate busses and the master, and then adjust the amp gains to a good listening level.

You want as much level (into and) out of the board as you can get without clipping, to improve S/N.

Generally, if you can hear hiss out of the power amps, it's cause your amp gains are too high, and -- if they have to be that high -- cause you're level-short earlier in the signal chain.

(If anyone thinks I've glossed over anything material there, feel free to chime in; I am, after all, JV.

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

Well, from the viewpoint of the board, all of the pages of each of those groups is visible at all times; that they need to be paginated is a concession of the physical hardware to cost and space; that's why which page you're looking at isn't saved in the scene/snippet/whatever. I suspect "current Selected channel" isn't saved either, also being an artifact of the UI which doesn't affect the sound.

Jay,
Yes, totally makes sense -- Maybe it's more hassle than it's worth, but it seems that something like "current selected fader bank" and "current selected channel" are all variables that the software works with already. So, saving that along with the rest of the console state would seem to be a trivial addition to the firmware.

Is it worth the development resources? Maybe not... I just wouldn't mind the option of picking up exactly where I left off.

Best,
-Daniel

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Re: X32 Discussion

Yes, totally makes sense -- Maybe it's more hassle than it's worth, but it seems that something like "current selected fader bank" and "current selected channel" are all variables that the software works with already. So, saving that along with the rest of the console state would seem to be a trivial addition to the firmware.

Is it worth the development resources? Maybe not... I just wouldn't mind the option of picking up exactly where I left off.

I think it's that, and it's also that it breaks some things: one various models, while the logical model remains the same, the physical model differs because the desk is smaller. Also: the tablet/phone apps generally handle it differently. I think I can see why it lost out in the labor assignment horserace myself.

As someone whom the blinking user-button drives nuts, though, I feel your pain.

 

[Daniel Rheaume]

Re: X32 Discussion

Jay,
Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail!
I'm actually a guitar tech for a touring band, so I'm not normally the guy behind the console at FOH -- however,
I am also a musician with a home studio, so the bulk of my experience running a desk is through that paradigm.

So that Page 3 "Effects Return" bank is the master return level for the signal coming out of the effects units; if those faders are down, you won't hear your effects. It's possible that if you set an insert point on those channels, the board will mute the returns to prevent feedback, though I haven't tested that.

I wouldn't expect it to affect your noise floor, though.

I'm not surprised that the board has master FX return channels, but I suppose I was approaching this much differently.
My thought was to send channels to a bus that had an effect inserted on the bus itself. This is how it is mostly done in
a DAW like Cubase -- send your channels in varying amounts to a bus that has a VST insert on it.

So do you gain anything by using the actual FX return channel? By inserting the FX on the bus itself, it seems you would have the ability to use all 8 FX in parallel (inserted into 8 respective buses) as opposed to 4 series inserted on channels/buses & 4 series/parallel inserted on buses and returned to the master FX return bus?

To address your earlier question: It is likely that the output gain control is all digital, in the signal presented to the DAC, yes. If that's the contributing factor to your noise, either your x32 has a hardware problem, or your input gain on the power amps is *way* too high -- and if it needs to be that high, it's possible you're not running the desk hot enough.

I'm not sure how new you are to mixing live sound from your posts, Daniel, but you may simply be not doing your gain-staging properly. Generally, you want to turn your mains up just a couple clicks, feed a signal to the board that comes up about, say, -18 to -12 average by adjusting the channel gain/pad, then adjust the channel to Unity along with any intermediate busses and the master, and then adjust the amp gains to a good listening level.

Generally, if you can hear hiss out of the power amps, it's cause your amp gains are too high, and -- if they have to be that high -- cause you're level-short earlier in the signal chain.

As far as this hiss and gainstaging -- while I am no expert, I am actually quite familiar with gainstaging as it pertains to a studio recording environment, and I approached this digital desk the same way. I've received and read numerous answers about looking for improper gain, but the hiss I reported was present right after initializing the entire console, with nothing connected to any channel, and with the master L/R fader muted and pulled all the way down. The idea that the power amps may be running too hot is very possible, but these are self powered speakers without a trim control. It seems like my only option is to buy or build an inline attenuator. This isn't such a big deal. I can't stress enough that the hiss is not out of control, it just sounds like my old analog A&H Mixwizard with everything pushed really hard. I was mostly just confused at how this was even possible with a master fader muted...but thinking about it as a digital gain before the DAC does account for this.

Thanks for your help!
-Daniel

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Re: X32 Discussion

Got it.

On the insert vs bus issue, it's a firm maybe.

What it depends /on/ is whether your effects have dry-pass. I believe all the builtins on the x32 do, so you can use them as inserts on a bus rather than as side-chains. If, of course, you want to apply multiple effects to the same signals, then you're back to side-chain.

 

[Sheriton Swan]

Re: X32 Discussion

The idea that the power amps may be running too hot is very possible, but these are self powered speakers without a trim control. It seems like my only option is to buy or build an inline attenuator. This isn't such a big deal. I can't stress enough that the hiss is not out of control, it just sounds like my old analog A&H Mixwizard with everything pushed really hard.

It's worth looking up what the maximum input level your powered speakers can accommodate is. Like many amps, a lot of powered speakers can only cope with a relatively low max input (often less than +4dBu). That in turn necessitates running the desk quite low unless there's an LMS in between. A 10dB pad right before the speaker input will not only drop the hiss but also let you run the desk a bit hotter. YMMV of course.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Re: X32 Discussion

It's worth looking up what the maximum input level your powered speakers can accommodate is. Like many amps, a lot of powered speakers can only cope with a relatively low max input (often less than +4dBu). That in turn necessitates running the desk quite low unless there's an LMS in between. A 10dB pad right before the speaker input will not only drop the hiss but also let you run the desk a bit hotter. YMMV of course.

Are there really XLR-in power speakers that are overdriven by +4dBu?

Apparently I am young, and not much traveled.

(This seems a good time for me to flog my favorite hobby horse on that point, too, that "-10" is "dBu", and actually *26dB* lower than +4dBm, rather than the obvious 14; a different zero reference. I think I've remembered that correctly.)

[ Edit: Sheriton corrects me below on the details. ]

 

[Sheriton Swan]

Re: X32 Discussion

Are there really XLR-in power speakers that are overdriven by +4dBu?
<snip>
(This seems a good time for me to flog my favorite hobby horse on that point, too, that "-10" is "dBu", and actually *26dB* lower than +4dBm, rather than the obvious 14; a different zero reference. I think I've remembered that correctly.)

The KV2 rig in one of my regular venues has inputs rated for 1V RMS which is 2.2dBu.

-10 is generally dBv which is equivalent to -7.8dBu so the difference between -10dBV and +4dBu is around 12dB. (dBm is used with power rather than voltage so isn't really relevant here.)