X32 Discussion

Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

Hi All,

Is it possible that the X32 has a feature that allows you to use the pink noise generator, and a reference mic, to Automagically create an EQ curve?

I'm toggling between two sets of monitors, and want to see if I can make the 'fun' ones (IE the big 15 inch 3 ways) a bit less honky.... To be frank I'm struggling to do it manually. If the RTA could create an EQ curve inversly proportional to what it's hearing (via a mic in a channel) it'd be really handy.

Anyway - Hope I've made my question understandable. I humbly await any good advice.
Thanks

Pauly
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

Is it possible that the X32 has a feature that allows you to use the pink noise generator, and a reference mic, to Automagically create an EQ curve?
Hi Pauly,

Since no one else has replied, here are a few thoughts:

First: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Has that feature: no.

Possible in the future: maybe, but such a thing would be a new source of complaints because "it doesn't work right".

You're asking a lot of something that we are already getting more out of than previously imaginable.

That said, it probably would not be that hard to create this new feature and implement it.

Certainly with what you have, you can generate an EQ curve and copy and store it to apply to the next project.

However, making two EQ curves look the same will not guarantee or even promise the result of making one speaker sound like another. There are physical and time issues involved that have important roles when you listen more than superficially, and they are usually not addressable with EQ.

Edit: I didn't realize there was a limit to how many smilies could be included in a message. It is 10.
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

G'day Dan,

Thanks for the reply - Not sure why there's so much laughter around the request, but at least you're smiling.

So.. the answer is no correct?

You mention you can generate an EQ curve and copy and store it to apply to the next project. - Do you mean from the RTA?

Thanks
Pauly

Hi Pauly,

Since no one else has replied, here are a few thoughts:

First: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
SNIP
It is 10.
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

G'day Dan,

Thanks for the reply - Not sure why there's so much laughter around the request, but at least you're smiling.

So.. the answer is no correct?

You mention you can generate an EQ curve and copy and store it to apply to the next project. - Do you mean from the RTA?

Thanks
Pauly
No, not from the RTA because then the answer to your original question would have been "yes".

The reason I'm laughing is that AFAIK what you want has never been adequately implemented in any form anywhere by anybody. In our previous analog world it would have been pretty impossible or at least difficult; I don't claim to know what's possible or not in this digital world.

What you want is the Holy Grail of painlessly making one thing sound exactly like another, which has been endlessly tried but never perfected. Something like a Perpetual Motion Machine of Audio.

That is where all the smilies come in.

There has been much discussion over the years why 1/3 octave analysis resolution is not accurate enough to exactly replicate real world audio signals to the point where it will fool our ears, and I suspect that this is the key to why what you want is impossible to implement. Maybe 1/64th octave would be sufficient, or something approaching that, but that's a lot to expect as one feature built into a $3000 USD mixer. More smilies.
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

There has been much discussion over the years why 1/3 octave analysis resolution is not accurate enough to exactly replicate real world audio signals to the point where it will fool our ears, and I suspect that this is the key to why what you want is impossible to implement. Maybe 1/64th octave would be sufficient, or something approaching that, but that's a lot to expect as one feature built into a $3000 USD mixer. More smilies.

I think eq of amplitude is just one aspect, and I doubt if more then 1/3 octave would do any good. The phase / time response could influence the result a lot more, but far more difficult to "eq"
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

Haha.. now I get it! :-)

Well .. I like your analysis of what I want.. and it's probably pretty accurate, however what I asked for was an EQ curve derived from the RTA that would notionally make the frequency amplitude flat for a given microphone & environment. I do understand the complications around Phase etc and that the 'holy grail' is not actually achievable. :-)

Ok.. thanks for the replies...and the SMiles!

Pauly


No, not from the RTA because then the answer to your original question would have been "yes".

The reason I'm laughing is that AFAIK what you want has never been adequately implemented in any form anywhere by anybody. In our previous analog world it would have been pretty impossible or at least difficult; I don't claim to know what's possible or not in this digital world.

What you want is the Holy Grail of painlessly making one thing sound exactly like another, which has been endlessly tried but never perfected. Something like a Perpetual Motion Machine of Audio.

That is where all the smilies come in.

There has been much discussion over the years why 1/3 octave analysis resolution is not accurate enough to exactly replicate real world audio signals to the point where it will fool our ears, and I suspect that this is the key to why what you want is impossible to implement. Maybe 1/64th octave would be sufficient, or something approaching that, but that's a lot to expect as one feature built into a $3000 USD mixer. More smilies.
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

I think eq of amplitude is just one aspect, and I doubt if more then 1/3 octave would do any good. The phase / time response could influence the result a lot more, but far more difficult to "eq"
Another reason why 1/3 octave is inadequate: If we divide any given 1/3 octave in two so that it is 1/6 octave, and the lower half is +20 and the upper half is -20, the average of them is 0, or unity, which is what the 1/3 octave analyzer would output.

A unity filter is not representative of what's really going on, and if you try to get rid of that nasty +20 peak by lowering your 1/3 octave slider you've taken the -20 one further into negative territory.

Substitute any random values for those +/- examples, or divide the band further into 1/12 or narrower bandwidths and then mess with the values, and the problem only gets worse in terms of replicating the spectral waveform. And as you look at narrower and narrower bandwidths, is thinking of +/- 20 db adequate or are the variations more wild than that?

A whole series of cans of worms open up, if one is trying to exactly replicate a target spectral waveform.

And as you imply, the phase/time response does not currently have a way to adjust like frequency does, although they are all tied together and changing one affects the others.

That's not to say that it's completely impossible do an OK job of replicating something, but it's tough to do it accurately.

However, if someone has time on their hands and is a pretty good audio person who pays attention to more than just EQ response and is a really clever computer programmer, it would seem like a fun and interesting project to try to give Pauly what he wants and would provide an education in the same way that John Meyer learned about building loudspeakers by focusing ever more closely on analysis and performance conditions (for example).

I don't doubt that Don Quixote is working on this now, and that someday someone is going to come really, really close.
 
Re: Possible to use RTA to create an EQ curve?

Hey Pauly,

I wrote an article back in the day about why I don't think an auto-RTA will ever work: http://bennettprescott.com/downloads/devil_with_rta.pdf

Nice one, well said.

To be devil's advocate, though, what Pauly originally asked was how to make the raw response of two speaker systems sound alike, not to integrate them into a space.

Ignoring the variables of driver placement and alignment (which can't be ignored in real life), if we assume equally proper implementation of those variables, is there a way to use FFT to capture a curve and somehow automatically transfer that to an EQ device and have it mean anything? It seems to me that the copy/paste aspect is what's not so much possible now or does Smaart have a way to do that? SIM certainly doesn't. You can manually input values and overlay traces, but no copy/paste AFAIK.

For some time in the early X32 days we were hearing about a Smaart-like thing that was going to be part of the X32, and what we got was the RTA which people have been trying to use as if it were Smaart but it's not and it's not implemented in the consoles that way. It's more similar to SIM where you see what's happening and then decide how to integrate that into your toolkit. Or at least that's how I'm seeing it.
 
Need quick help with ducker

Hi.
If anyone is out there who can help right now, I need a gradual release on the ducker. Its instantaneous at the moment and doesn't sound good. Release time appears to be ineffective.
Thanks,
Mick.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

We've been experiencing very sporadic audio dropouts on our Behringer X32 sound board. We went most of the winter without any of these happening, then we had 1 in early April. And then on April 26, 2015, we had this happen in back to back services.

Here is a link to a video showing exactly what happened yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfn1yk190-k


The latest theory is some sort of static discharge. Notice that the lead guitarist steps on his pedal board both times when this happened this time.

The audio completely cut off in the house, in the in-ears, and in the recordings. The board did not shut off or reboot. We did install a UPS back in September. The UPS is hooked directly up to a wall outlet (though our breaker panel has some sort of built in power conditioning). Then we have a rack mount power conditioner/distribution switch (eg Furman) plugged in to the UPS, and the board plugged into that.


See https://youtu.be/5sN21HI9Q00 for a previous incident.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to figure out what is causing this?
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Are you directly connecting to the X32 or are you using s16 stage boxes?

We are connecting 2 analog snakes directly to our X32. We do use P16 monitoring on stage, but have not upgraded to a digital snake yet. I've had a couple of other people recommend switching to the digital snake to see if that removes the problem, but I'd prefer to confirm that the analog snake is the issue first, if possible.

Speaking of digital snakes, I now see there are 2 different options: S16 & SD16. How is the newer SD16 different?
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Hi, thanks a lot for this forum and all the help that it offers, I have 2 questions and maybe somebody could help me regarding my enquires which is:

1.- is there any way to check how much of gain on each channel I am sending to the console in the app? I just found that there is only an output meter that shows up, but not any input meter to check the gain,

2.- I just saw a you tube video were the xr18 use the mixing station app (xair) and it can ring monitors and shows wich frequency is the one that is giving troubles, of course I can see the rta on the eq channels, but it's not on the eq bus even if you press the sends on fader, it just shows the 31 bands of the eq but not rta on it? Is that implemented on the app? Or I'm missing something?

Thanks for your time
 
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Re: X32 Discussion

Hi, thanks a lot for this forum and all the help that it offers, I have 2 questions and maybe somebody could help me regarding my enquires which is:

1.- is there any way to check how much of gain on each channel I am sending to the console in the app? I just found that there is only an output meter that shows up, but not any input meter to check the gain,

2.- I just saw a you tube video were the xr18 use the mixing station app (xair) and it can ring monitors and shows wich frequency is the one that is giving troubles, of course I can see the rta on the eq channels, but it's not on the eq bus even if you press the sends on fader, it just shows the 31 bands of the eq but not rta on it? Is that implemented on the app? Or I'm missing something?

Thanks for your time
Hi Mauricio,

This forum is for the X32 and not the XR series mixers.

Try http://forum.music-group.com/forumdisplay.php?113-X-AIR-General-Discussion

That will be a much better place to find people familiar with that mixer.

That said, for your #1, the meter next to each channel is the input meter for each channel.

I'm not sure what you are talking about in #2, as the XR 18 doesn't have a sends on fader button, and I haven't looked at the RTA function yet, sorry.

Which YouTube video has this?
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Hello Dan, thanks for your prompt response, I'm sorry I forgot to mentioned that the questions was for the Mixing Station app on Android and for the X32 wich I have 2(full and producer), the video that I was mentioning you can find it on the you tube behringer channel tv, is called xr18 ringing monitors, and it describes how to ring the way I'm telling you, and I am still curious is that kind of service would be implemented for the X32 as well, I understand that on the screen the rta helps a lot, but pressing sends on fader for the app doesn't do what I've saw for the xr18(i completely understand that that feature is for the x air series), but it could be a really good thing to have that on board as well
 
Re: X32 Discussion

We've been experiencing very sporadic audio dropouts on our Behringer X32 sound board. We went most of the winter without any of these happening, then we had 1 in early April. And then on April 26, 2015, we had this happen in back to back services.

Here is a link to a video showing exactly what happened yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfn1yk190-k


The latest theory is some sort of static discharge. Notice that the lead guitarist steps on his pedal board both times when this happened this time.

The audio completely cut off in the house, in the in-ears, and in the recordings. The board did not shut off or reboot. We did install a UPS back in September. The UPS is hooked directly up to a wall outlet (though our breaker panel has some sort of built in power conditioning). Then we have a rack mount power conditioner/distribution switch (eg Furman) plugged in to the UPS, and the board plugged into that.


See https://youtu.be/5sN21HI9Q00 for a previous incident.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to figure out what is causing this?



Gee that sounds a lot like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3m9D3TUmY0



Which is caused by this:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,143428.0.html
 
Re: X32 Discussion

That's the first thing I thought of, too, only Bill says they are using analog snakes with CAT5 only on the in-ears.

Bill, is that CAT 5 coming off the Ultranet connector on the console? That doesn't have Ethercon capability, so could that be the culprit? If so, how does stepping on the guitar pedal cause a problem with that?

Sorry that we are of little help. Can you get into the church when it's not during a service and see if you can do things to re-create the problem? If you can get a bbq sparker and modify it as described in Brian Wynn's videos that would definitely tell you if it's a static discharge problem.

Good luck!