X32 Discussion

[Klaus Mock]

Re: Monitor out noise

I dunno man. The fact that you can hear noise on the outputs tells me that it's working; fully and functionally. :roll:

In the beginning of the GSM era the provider added some noise to the signal to help the user to know whether they are connected or not.

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: Monitor out noise

TecNec Neutrik Ethercon / Belden Data Tuff CAT5e Cable Assemblies by TecNec CAT-5 Cables at Markertek.com

Good luck.

Ah, I hope that cable rocks and doesn't puff piffs of pink noise or otherwise pfaff the pflow. I bought 100' of it for P16-M patches.

I've heard that sort of thing from cheap patch cables (microphonics) but not twisted pair. Anything is possible. In my line of work, if you observe it (even if it doesn't make sense), it's true. You have lots of time later to dig deeper.

Mmmm. Luck. Labor Under Correct Knowledge. ~:-D~:grin:

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: Monitor out noise

It occurred when I was adjusting the snake position on the main stage. The snake was a couple of the Belden Dura Tough (Data Tough?) cables that someone here suggested
The PA which was on, emitted a burst of pink noise sounding stuff, and stopped when I stopped pulling. I pulled again, and it did it again..

Dan - I checked the link you provided, the cable doesn't look any different that regular cat 5 (you can see the spiral in the jacket) - can you tell me if they have any type of reinforcement inside to keep the pairs aligned? What makes this cable "rugged", or "tactical" ?
The other indication that this isn't a "thick or rugged cable" is that it looks like the cable is not even filling up the opening to the XLR boot.

When I was testing my snake heads when I first got them I was using standard cat 5 (not tactical cat 5). I had a 25 ft run between the snake head and the console, and when I stepped on the cat 5 on my way by, the audio stopped. I believe that crushing the pairs caused the audio stoppage. You might be disturbing the pairs when you are moving your cables is what is causing the pink noise, digital hash whatever.


Check this out - is this what you got ?, or did you order the cable on your previous link...

Gepco Heavy Duty Tactical Cat5e Network Cable Bulk Category 5/5e/6 Cable at Markertek.com

 

[Aaron Hammett]

Re: Monitor out noise

In the beginning of the GSM era the provider added some noise to the signal to help the user to know whether they are connected or not.

A little off topic never hurt any thread over 5k posts...right?

I designed an audio amp for one of those companies that sells its product to those high end audio salons where the rooms are painted white (on white on white), the speakers cost more than a fully opted MB 760Li and a personal butler hands you a diamond encrusted snifter of Courvoisier (but only after signing the waiver).

The amp was to be the finest representation of a particular topology which started with a "T" and ended with an "Ripath". However, the company's owner was unaware of its main processor's...uh...analog shortcomings. Without getting too technical, it was sonically noisy. His current iteration of a 40W per channel amp was (kinda sorta) quiet. My design of 160W per channel was supposed to be even more quiet. But as we know, mo' power (mo' gain), mo' problems: Mo' Noise. Can't get around that. My contribution started with the mitigation of EMI to get it compliant...and ended in a short discussion of how we work within the constraints of physics to get what we want. End of contract, thank you. After a short "You'll never work in this town again" tirade by said OEM, I was contacted a few short months later to fix the problems that "nobody could figure out". No, thank you.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Monitor out noise

Dan - I checked the link you provided, the cable doesn't look any different that regular cat 5 (you can see the spiral in the jacket) - can you tell me if they have any type of reinforcement inside to keep the pairs aligned? What makes this cable "rugged", or "tactical" ?
The other indication that this isn't a "thick or rugged cable" is that it looks like the cable is not even filling up the opening to the XLR boot.

When I was testing my snake heads when I first got them I was using standard cat 5 (not tactical cat 5). I had a 25 ft run between the snake head and the console, and when I stepped on the cat 5 on my way by, the audio stopped. I believe that crushing the pairs caused the audio stoppage. You might be disturbing the pairs when you are moving your cables is what is causing the pink noise, digital hash whatever.


Check this out - is this what you got ?, or did you order the cable on your previous link...

Gepco Heavy Duty Tactical Cat5e Network Cable Bulk Category 5/5e/6 Cable at Markertek.com

Hi Shane,

I ordered the Gepco Tactical 4 pair cable, but as it was stuck on a boat somewhere between China and Markertek, instead got the Data Tuff that I linked to for my immediate need. It seemed to be the only ready-made cable that Markertek had that purported to be tuff. They weren't offering premade cables using the one you linked, only the Belden.

The jacket is sturdy on the Belden, don't know anything more than that.

Interestingly, now that my made Gepco cables are in transit to me, I feel fine pointing out that Markertek sells the made Gepco cables cheaper than the raw. Check it out:

Gepco 4-Channel Heavy-duty Solid Cond Tactical Cat5e Snake Cable - Per Foot CAT-5 Cables at Markertek.com

$6.05/foot

TecNec CES-EC8 4-Channel Neutrik NE8MC-B CAT5e Tactical Ethernet Snake 150 Ft CAT-5 Cables at Markertek.com

Little over $4/foot

And your experience conforms with mine, but I don't get why crushing the pairs stops audio. Did you have a burst of noise as well? This CAT 5 stuff is relatively new to me, and I'm hoping someone chimes in with some specific knowledge.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Mick Berg]

Re: Call For Help - Scene Files

Folks,

Im currently testing the next phase of my Scene Management application and it can now upload scenes directly from the app to the X32 ~:-D~:grin:

Before I release it for public testing I want to test it properly and this is where Im asking for as much help from you folks can give me.

I looking for as many different scene files as I can get my hands on (the more complicated the better).

I will upload these files using my application to the X32 then resave them using XControl and compare the upload file against the saved file to make sure they are the same.

If anyone is willing to donate a scene file for test then please PM me and I will send you an email address that they can be sent to.

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps ~:-D~:grin:

Kev

I'd be happy to send you my most complicated scene but it isn't very complicated! (you have a PM)
Maybe a man as talented as yourself could write a routine that puts a random value into every available parameter?
Mick Berg.

 

[Kevin Hunter]

Re: Call For Help - Scene Files

I'd be happy to send you my most complicated scene but it isn't very complicated! (you have a PM)
Maybe a man as talented as yourself could write a routine that puts a random value into every available parameter?
Mick Berg.

I like testing with real life files but I have been thinking about doing exactly what you suggest, ie write one that exercises everything but that will actually take quite a bit of time to do .

So question for behringer - does your software team have a sample file that exercises everything ??

So far the testing has highlighted a few areas .

A bug in my software (well Im human you know)
Multiple un-documented parameters (Behringer - any chance of an update of the manual ???)
The addition of the de esser FX's (again not in the manual)

It also highlighted how unreliable the UDP protocol used by the desk can be . UDP is a fire and forget protocol that can (and does) drop messages , so Ive changed my software to send each message twice to make sure !

The more scene files I can test the better , so keep them coming folks .

And thanks to all that have sent them so far .

Kev

 

[Eric Hill - USA]

Re: Monitor out noise

Gepco

The Gepco Tactical cable is difficult to terminate. But, it's very durable.

Eric H.

 

[Fiona Hammond]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi Dan,

You haven't missed anything! I simply gave Michael our contact details, and the contact details for Galactic Music in Australia, should he require any assistance in the future.

Kind Regards,
Fiona Hammond
CARE EMEA
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

 

[Darren Scaresbrook]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi Dan,

You haven't missed anything! I simply gave Michael our contact details, and the contact details for Galactic Music in Australia, should he require any assistance in the future.

Kind Regards,
Fiona Hammond
CARE EMEA
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Hmmm, interesting!

Galactic have had my console and two s16's for a couple of weeks trying to find what sounds like a similar, maybe same problem.
I believe the system may be dropping sync for a moment. When it happens, the audio stops for a brief second and the screen flickers.
A few people seem to be having this sort of issue. I'm using ramcat cable which works fine on an iLive system(ethersound) and also a Midas system using aes50. The problem is also very intermittant, can be fine for days, then play up. I wonder about the possibility of some units being particularly prone to losing sync due to tolerances in the clock/sync components?

Hopefully it faults soon on the bench so the source of the problem can be found!

Darren

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi Dan,

You haven't missed anything! I simply gave Michael our contact details, and the contact details for Galactic Music in Australia, should he require any assistance in the future.

Hi Fiona,

That's disappointing; I'd hoped you had some info about the problem.

So let me ask specifically:

Do you or anyone else at Behringer or a company owned by Behringer have any knowledge of why an AES50 signal stream would be interrupted by some physical intrusion (bumping, squeezing, kinking, stepping on, etc.) which can affect but does not break a Cat 5 cable?

And I guess the question to be asked before that one is "Can this happen?". I felt like it did in the experience I shared earlier, but maybe I'm wrong and it was something else?

Are there any other physical/environmental/electrical/RF interference factors we need to worry about when connecting our S16's to the console or each other?

Anyone else should feel free to chime in, too.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Steve Maksim]

Re: X32 Discussion

Do you or anyone else at Behringer or a company owned by Behringer have any knowledge of why an AES50 signal stream would be interrupted by some physical intrusion (bumping, squeezing, kinking, stepping on, etc.) which can affect but does not break a Cat 5 cable?

So I'm curious whether this sort of treatment has been established as causing packet loss in general. Just about all my experience with wired networking has been with a) "installed" systems where movement is relatively unlikely and b) TCP, so packet loss is acceptable.

I could definitely imagine that bending the cable around a small enough radius could cause in a change in impedance with the end result being packet loss. Perhaps an annoying but realizable solution is sufficiently stiff cable.

 

[Antoon van den Oetelaar]

Re: X32 Discussion

knowledge of why an AES50 signal stream would be interrupted by some physical intrusion (bumping, squeezing, kinking, stepping on, etc.) which can affect but does not break a Cat 5 cable?

I've seen also regular cat5 cable for normal computer networks not working after that people bend cables. These cables did measure through with a regular universal meter. I believe, but i'm not sure there is also a rule that you schouldn't bend them to much, and keep a sort of minimal radius...

Maybe some computer goeroe can chime in. They are all high speed differential connections...
I know with high speed pc board layout, I have to round the corners instead of the regular 45 degrees corners.

 

[Michael Roper]

Re: X32 Discussion

And I guess the question to be asked before that one is "Can this happen?". I felt like it did in the experience I shared earlier, but maybe I'm wrong and it was something else?

Just jumping back in here - I have a feeling that my experience was similar, pretty sure it happened when someone was walking in the vicinity of my snake cable, and may have stepped on it. I went over and tried to do the same and reproduce the sound, but it didn't seem to at that time..

The snake cable i'm using is this one: 50m flexible TOUR GRADE CAT5E cable drum system | eBay - which uses the Van Damme 'Tour Grade' cable... not as thick+tough as i was expecting it to be, but would expect it to have some tolerance...

Wasn't sure if it was just a freak occurrence, or something else in my signal chain... but after hearing yours and Darren's stories, now i'm interested to hear the outcome of Darren's problem - good chance it might even be the same batch...

 

[Pat Ferdig]

Re: X32 Discussion

Do you or anyone else at Behringer or a company owned by Behringer have any knowledge of why an AES50 signal stream would be interrupted by some physical intrusion (bumping, squeezing, kinking, stepping on, etc.) which can affect but does not break a Cat 5 cable?

And I guess the question to be asked before that one is "Can this happen?". I felt like it did in the experience I shared earlier, but maybe I'm wrong and it was something else?

Are there any other physical/environmental/electrical/RF interference factors we need to worry about when connecting our S16's to the console or each other?

Thanks,
Dan

Dear Dan and forum watchers,

We have seen several instances on the Neurtik connectors where some of the pins will bend. If this happens, there is a high likelihood that you will see intermittent issues including the sync problems mentioned when the cables plugged into the connectors are moved slightly. If you want to check your ports, the 8 pins in the ethercons should line up nicely next to each other. If one or more pins seem to be out of line with the others, there is a high likelihood that this is the issue. This can be easily rectified by re-adjusting the contacts.

If this does not solve the issue, please send me a PM and we can troubleshoot properly.

Regards,

Pat Ferdig
VP, Care
MUSIC Group

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Discussion

Dear Dan and forum watchers,

We have seen several instances on the Neurtik connectors where some of the pins will bend. If this happens, there is a high likelihood that you will see intermittent issues including the sync problems mentioned when the cables plugged into the connectors are moved slightly. If you want to check your ports, the 8 pins in the ethercons should line up nicely next to each other. If one or more pins seem to be out of line with the others, there is a high likelihood that this is the issue. This can be easily rectified by re-adjusting the contacts.

If this does not solve the issue, please send me a PM and we can troubleshoot properly.

Regards,

Pat Ferdig
VP, Care
MUSIC Group

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the description of a possible problem, but the question at hand is something happening anywhere in the middle of a cable, not at any connector.

The specific questions, quoted from the earlier post but reworded a little to maybe be clearer:

Do you or anyone else at Behringer or a company owned by Behringer have any knowledge of why an AES50 signal stream would be disrupted by some physical intrusion (bumping, squeezing, kinking, stepping on, etc.) occurring in the middle of a Cat 5 cable which does not break continuity on any conductors?

And I guess the question to be asked before that one is "Can this disruption happen?". I felt like it did in the experience I shared earlier, but maybe I'm wrong and it was something else?

Are there any other physical/environmental/electrical/RF interference factors we need to worry about when connecting our S16's to the console or each other?

Thanks,
Dan

Edit #2: Wait, maybe you were anwering the third question and not the first two? If so, my apologies for not guessing which one you were addressing. If not, the above stands. And your tag line "if this doesn't solve the issue..." made me think you thought it answered all questions.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Monitor out noise

I had a recheck of my headphone outs and my monitor outs, connecting a spectrum analyzer just to prove beyond any notch filtering going on in my ears that there is no noise there. Monitor trims and analogue pots to max, and I was totally unable to get anything above the noise floor of my measuring equipment (PC), just to make sure, I set the input level so I would have 0dB at -40dBFs at the console, meaning that I should be able to observe anything above -110 dBFs (-90dBu). Failing to see anything, I tried connecting my PRX535s, turning them up to max and using mic level input. Not a whisper beyond the slight hiss that always comes from the horns.

EDIT: Later on, I noticed a faint 2KHz noise from one of my speakers and started checking the console for possible reasons why the noise would have appeared, trying turning effects up and down, turning the console off and on, but no change. So I tried to turn the level of the speakers up to hear the noise better, and discovered it was there even with the console turned off, so there we are :blush:

My X32 has production date 1206

While I was at it, I tested the tap delay function of the delay and chorus. Playing a piece of music with a steady rythm, I was able to get a time of 266 mS 8 out of ten times, the two "misses" were 262 and 257 mS, so there doesn't seem to be much of a problem there either allthough some have reported that the function is unreliable.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Monitor out noise

I had a recheck of my headphone outs and my monitor outs, connecting a spectrum analyzer just to prove beyond any notch filtering going on in my ears that there is no noise there. Monitor trims and analogue pots to max, and I was totally unable to get anything above the noise floor of my measuring equipment (PC), just to make sure, I set the input level so I would have 0dB at -40dBFs at the console, meaning that I should be able to observe anything above -110 dBFs (-90dBu). Failing to see anything, I tried connecting my PRX535s, turning them up to max and using mic level input. Not a whisper beyond the slight hiss that always comes from the horns.
My X32 has production date 1206

While I was at it, I tested the tap delay function of the delay and chorus. Playing a piece of music with a steady rythm, I was able to get a time of 266 mS 8 out of ten times, the two "misses" were 262 and 257 mS, so there doesn't seem to be much of a problem there either allthough some have reported that the function is unreliable.

Thanks, Per, this is wonderful news. It says that it's possible for a console to be free of the noise.

Can you please take some pics, cell phone ones are fine, of the screen of your analyzer so we can all enjoy the good news?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Monitor out noise

Thanks, Per, this is wonderful news. It says that it's possible for a console to be free of the noise.

Can you please take some pics, cell phone ones are fine, of the screen of your analyzer so we can all enjoy the good news?

Thanks,
Dan

Rater pointless, because there is nothing to see, but here is music at -40dBFS, no sound at max monitor levels and finally the noise floor with the X32 turned off. Slope set to 0dB/octave and input level to -20dB, where the input started clipping at -40dBFS from the desk.

 

[Dejan Vuckovic]

Re: Monitor out noise

OK, so this shows that Behringer at some point in the production became aware of the fault, changed something and fixed the problem. Why not tell us what, so we can fix it as well?