Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

[Loren Aguey]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

If it has happened three times on different consoles, it is probably a systematic user error. It is obviously very difficult to analyze what you are doing when the problem occurs, I can only suggest that you go through your routines, maybe look for parameter safes that you weren't aware of. Have you looked at the scenes and confirmed that the settings are not saved? Have you tried to replicate the problem?

People seem to be quite defensive of the X32, it seems this is the 2nd time someone has called user error on me when I mentioned issues with it and the previous incidents where I had to send 3 of them back for repair over the course of a year were certainly not operator error. Anyway, if what you say is correct regarding the info being stored in scenes and not the show file, then everything should have loaded up properly. Yes there were channel and parameter safes, but that doesn't explain why certain parameters that were safe'd loaded up properly and others didn't.

It's possible I have an incorrect understanding of what the show file is supposed to save. My understanding is that it should save the console in it's current state (or last saved scene state) and be able to load a different console an identical configuration with all the scenes and all the parameter and channel safes still intact. If it's only supposed to save all the scenes and not save config stuff like custom encoders, safes etc...then we can call it operator error (or operator misunderstanding).

 

[Daniel McAllister]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

It's possible I have an incorrect understanding of what the show file is supposed to save. My understanding is that it should save the console in it's current state (or last saved scene state) and be able to load a different console an identical configuration with all the scenes and all the parameter and channel safes still intact. If it's only supposed to save all the scenes and not save config stuff like custom encoders, safes etc...then we can call it operator error (or operator misunderstanding).

I may be wrong too, but that's not my understanding of how the show files work. In V1.15, scene files contain the full console state (every parameter) at the point when they were created. Exporting a show exports all the individual scene files, plus a show file which details the order of scenes and which scene slots are empty. Only scenes store actual desk parameters, so you need to save to a scene, and then export the show.

I imagine this is the same for V2.02, but that exporting a show file now obviously exports the cue and snippet data too.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

People seem to be quite defensive of the X32, it seems this is the 2nd time someone has called user error on me when I mentioned issues with it and the previous incidents where I had to send 3 of them back for repair over the course of a year were certainly not operator error.

We can only go by your description of a problem, and sometimes when a description sounds very much like what would happen if this or that was done wrong, the only helpful advice we can give on the forum is to point out a possible user error and ways to do it right if it is indeed user error. If what you want from the forum is ego stroking and validation, then you'll often not get what you came for.
It would of course be helpful to users if Behringer reported back after performing an investigation of the problem that caused a console to be returned, and untill that happens and there is some disclosure, the only thing one can do is guess.

Anyway, if what you say is correct regarding the info being stored in scenes and not the show file, then everything should have loaded up properly. Yes there were channel and parameter safes, but that doesn't explain why certain parameters that were safe'd loaded up properly and others didn't.

It might be your wording, and I might misunderstand, but it sounds like you haven't grasped what the safes do. When there are channel and parameter safes in the global settings, these are stored as part of the show file. When the show is loaded, every channel and parameter that is safed will NOT load anything that is on the scene files, and will be in the state they happened to be before the show was loaded. When you safe something in a scene, you inhibit that part of the scene from loading.
The only way in pre 2.0 firmware to ensure that a show loads properly is to load a show with no safes and an initial scene with no safes.

It's possible I have an incorrect understanding of what the show file is supposed to save. My understanding is that it should save the console in it's current state (or last saved scene state) and be able to load a different console an identical configuration with all the scenes and all the parameter and channel safes still intact. If it's only supposed to save all the scenes and not save config stuff like custom encoders, safes etc...then we can call it operator error (or operator misunderstanding).

Saving the show doesn't save the state of the console, only what is saved in the scenes and the majority of the global settings.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

When the show is loaded, every channel and parameter that is safed will NOT load anything that is on the scene files, and will be in the state they happened to be before the show was loaded.

So you're saying that loading a complete show file from USB will not change anything that has been "safed" in the show currently on the desk? OH MY FUCKING GOD. This blows. I expect a "show file" to completely reconfigure the console according to the new file. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Loren Aguey]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

If what you want from the forum is ego stroking and validation, then you'll often not get what you came for.

Right...I don't feel anything I've said has indicated that I'm looking for validation :roll:. I mentioned an issue, and you said operator error. Which, in any situation, if I make a mistake I'm happy to admit. Exactly where in the process of saving, exporting a show file to USB, then re-loading it can one make an error that would cause random things to return to default and others to load properly? Unless, again, I'm expecting the console to behave in a way that other digital consoles do but the X32 doesn't.

So you're saying that loading a complete show file from USB will not change anything that has been "safed" in the show currently on the desk? OH MY FUCKING GOD. This blows. I expect a "show file" to completely reconfigure the console according to the new file. Or am I misunderstanding you?

This is also what I expect. And perhaps where the misunderstanding between Per and I lies. If this is not how the console operates then we can tack on one more feature request for the next big update.

ie. Please make show files 100% global.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

Right...I don't feel anything I've said has indicated that I'm looking for validation :roll:. I mentioned an issue, and you said operator error. Which, in any situation, if I make a mistake I'm happy to admit. Exactly where in the process of saving, exporting a show file to USB, then re-loading it can one make an error that would cause random things to return to default and others to load properly? Unless, again, I'm expecting the console to behave in a way that other digital consoles do but the X32 doesn't.

I think you need to expect the X32 to work like the X32 and not assume that anything works like any other console.
While there are similarities between most consoles, I wouldn't expect to alternate between Avid, Yamaha and Midas consoles without thoroughly understanding the differences either, and I'm personally so inept at unlearnig that I dread using anything but the X32 by now, even a Yamaha.
That is certainly an area where analog consoles are winners, most of us can walk up to any analog console and be 99% right in the way we operate it

So you're saying that loading a complete show file from USB will not change anything that has been "safed" in the show currently on the desk? OH MY FUCKING GOD. This blows. I expect a "show file" to completely reconfigure the console according to the new file. Or am I misunderstanding you?

This is also what I expect. And perhaps where the misunderstanding between Per and I lies. If this is not how the console operates then we can tack on one more feature request for the next big update. ie. Please make show files 100% global.

Tim, you are only slightly misunderstanding me. If the show you load has global parameter safes and channel safes, those parameters and channels will not be updated by anything contained in the new show you are loading. The parameter safes and channel safes of the old show will not have any influence, but remnants of the parameter settings of the old show will be the settings that you have in the new show for all parameters and channels that are globally safed in the new show.

The only way to safely load a new show where you have global safes, is to have a separate preparation show file with no safes set and containing your default startup scene with all the parameters set correctly. After that initialisation show is loaded and the scene invoked, you can then load your "real" show with the safes you want set to preserve the vital settings of that initialisation scene.

Sounds awfully complicated? Firmware 2.0 fixes this by loading scene 000 in its entirety irrespective of global safes set in the show.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

You are slightly misunderstanding me. If the show you load has global parameter safes and channel safes, those parameters and channels will not be updated by anything contained in the new show you are loading. The parameter safes and channel safes of the old show will not have any influence, but remnants of the parameter settings of the old show will be the settings that you have in the new show for all parameters and channels that are globally safed in the new show.

The only way to safely load a new show where you have global safes, is to have a separate preparation show file with no safes set and containing your default startup scene with all the parameters set correctly. After that initialisation show is loaded and the scene invoked, you can then load your "real" show with the safes you want set to preserve the vital settings of that initialisation scene.

Sounds awfully complicated? Firmware 2.0 fixes this by loading scene 000 in its entirety irrespective of global safes set in the show.

This is dumb. Joe? Jan? Can this stupidity get fixed without the kludge of "000"?

Again, another reason this desk is US$3000 and not $20,000.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

This is dumb. Joe? Jan? Can this stupidity get fixed without the kludge of "000"?

Again, another reason this desk is US$3000 and not $20,000.

Why is that a kludge? What could be simpler and more straightforward?
If you want your console to act reasonably, start with scene 000, which is the default first scene when you program a show, or if you for some reason want to preserve some settings from another show, simply omit scene 000

 

[Loren Aguey]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

I think you need to expect the X32 to work like the X32 and not assume that anything works like any other console.

That's reasonable. Although in my head the concept of a "show file" is 100% global. To me that's the definition of a show file, as opposed to a scene or snapshot. And it appears I wasn't the only one who made that assumption. But you know what they say about ASSuME...

At any rate, thanks for clearing up how to actually get the console to recall completely.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

One more time - stop working on the firmware and work on the X32 Edit program to do full screen, 1080 or 1200, more fader room and support multitouch.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

That's reasonable. Although in my head the concept of a "show file" is 100% global.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the console works. I had thought that the parameter safes were within the console and not subject to change by show files, maybe because that's the way I want it to be.

I definitely don't want my console routing reconfigured by a file from some BE who runs L-R from XLR outputs 1 & 2 with subs on 3 when I'm running XLR 15-16 for L-R and 13-14 for subs. Or whatever.

It seems like once I set safes on a console they stay set until I manually change them. Am I misunderstanding and falsely observing?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the console works. I had thought that the parameter safes were within the console and not subject to change by show files, maybe because that's the way I want it to be.

I definitely don't want my console routing reconfigured by a file from some BE who runs L-R from XLR outputs 1 & 2 with subs on 3 when I'm running XLR 15-16 for L-R and 13-14 for subs. Or whatever.

It seems like once I set safes on a console they stay set until I manually change them. Am I misunderstanding and falsely observing?

There is no lockable configuration or anything really that helps you protect the settings of the console. You have the settings that is altered by the show file, that's it.
Some user preferences are not in the showfile, but that's really just minor stuff.

Maybe the reason why there doesn't seem to be massive support for feature requests that rectifies this rather intolerable situation for install use and multi-band festival use is that most users simply don't realize how the console really works in this respect?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

Maybe the reason why there doesn't seem to be massive support for feature requests that rectifies this rather intolerable situation for install use and multi-band festival use is that most users simply don't realize how the console really works in this respect?

That's probably it, Per. I haven't used my X32 enough for this to reveal itself... it's my personal mixer for some of the free lance work I do. My work around will be to fully re-initialize the console before loading a saved show file.

I come from the Yamaha and Digidesign/Avid user base, where loading a "show" means a complete and total console configuration and anything "safed" in a show file will be loaded and then the "safe" applied to that parameter, channel, or whatever.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

That's probably it, Per. I haven't used my X32 enough for this to reveal itself... it's my personal mixer for some of the free lance work I do. My work around will be to fully re-initialize the console before loading a saved show file.

I come from the Yamaha and Digidesign/Avid user base, where loading a "show" means a complete and total console configuration and anything "safed" in a show file will be loaded and then the "safe" applied to that parameter, channel, or whatever.

WOW.

So all Avid/Digidesign and Yamaha users at festivals have their system eq and routing reset by every band engineer? Why is there not more outboard gear at these festivals, then? Or are there system EQ's that are not visible in the pictures?

And the guys who are doing system crossovers within their X32's in the Matrices lose that immediately upon loading a show file? Yikes.

Edit: I thought the way the saving and safes worked is:

All parameters of the console are saved when saving a scene or show.

Setting safes on the console keeps it from reading those specific parameters from a show or scene file.

Per seems to be saying it's the reverse of that, that safed parameters are selectively disabled in the saving, which seems like the reverse of usable.

And I'm looking forward to hearing a reply from someone who wants 100% console reconfiguration 100% of the time as to why that is good.

Dan

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

Edit: I thought the way the saving and safes worked is:

All parameters of the console are saved when saving a scene or show.

Yes, ALL parameters are saved in a scene, (except global preferences and global safes settings)
Shows are not saved as such, and when you export a show, the console state is not saved with the show, only the scenes and the global preferences and global safes settings.

Setting safes on the console keeps it from reading those specific parameters from a show or scene file.

Correct

Per seems to be saying it's the reverse of that, that safed parameters are selectively disabled in the saving, which seems like the reverse of usable.

Hmmmm, I'm really bad at expressing myself clearly if I seem to be saying that.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

WOW.

So all Avid/Digidesign and Yamaha users at festivals have their system eq and routing reset by every band engineer? Why is there not more outboard gear at these festivals, then? Or are there system EQ's that are not visible in the pictures?

And the guys who are doing system crossovers within their X32's in the Matrices lose that immediately upon loading a show file? Yikes.

Edit: I thought the way the saving and safes worked is:

All parameters of the console are saved when saving a scene or show.

Setting safes on the console keeps it from reading those specific parameters from a show or scene file.

Per seems to be saying it's the reverse of that, that safed parameters are selectively disabled in the saving, which seems like the reverse of usable.

And I'm looking forward to hearing a reply from someone who wants 100% console reconfiguration 100% of the time as to why that is good.

Dan

I think you need to look at this from the perspective of the BE, too. In his shoes, I wouldn't want ANY remnants of someone elses show left on the desk. Nothing.

Welcome to the world of digital console management. Robert Scovill spends about an hour in his Complete FOH Engineer seminars on this topic and covers the use of Snapshots and Showfiles at festivals with Avid desks in the Venue webinars.

I'm suspecting it's the difference in work we do, Dan, but in my world a BE doesn't come up and load a foreign file at showtime. We deal with this at sound check. If a BE is delayed, nobody else on the crew has the file (happens on fly dates), I'll get the show file upon arrival, load it into a laptop and fix any routing issues, save back to USB stick and then load from it. In X32 Edit, you could fix or change whatever and then sync the desk to the computer, same with Yamaha.

A few years ago we got a call from another production company doing a festival about an hour from us. Saturday morning, the headline act loaded in and the FOH engineer pointed to rider which plainly said "NO digital FOH. Period." There was an M7, so new that it was unboxed back stage and hand-carried to FOH by local crew on Thursday night. The rest of the analog story isn't important, but what I observed while setting up the analog mixer and outboard I delivered, is.

The system/FOH tech for the production company was a hired gun and unfamiliar with the M7, in fact he was reading the manual when I got there and the show was in progress. Set change time came, and the big raffle/door prizes were being announced. The next BE up loaded his file into the M7 and.... yup, shit went South in a hurry. Only the front fills were working. Not my job to fix, but being familiar with the M7 I did offer some assistance in navigating the desk to the OmniOut setup page. It was this experience that led me to carry a laptop with the editor software for every digital mixer we own. I'm happy to say that we've never had a showtime issue like this because we learned from the mistakes of others.

This is also why some providers have a "production mixer" that has MC(s), house music and emergency announcement mic inputs; and all show console outputs routed through it. The production mixer drives the PA. There was a recent discussion regarding this task & appropriate gear in the Classic LAB @ PSW.

 

[Tim Padrick]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

I'd really like to see

... the ability to have all faders available for channels

Wasn't this incorporated into V2.0? (Or was it just for the Compact and Producer?)

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

There is no lockable configuration or anything really that helps you protect the settings of the console. You have the settings that is altered by the show file, that's it.
Some user preferences are not in the showfile, but that's really just minor stuff.

This says to me that all parameters of the console are fair game to be changed by a loaded file, and there's no way to preclude that, which is in disagreement with what I thought I knew.

I get the difference between a show file and a scene (a show is just a collection of scenes, right?), and see no reason that a show file containing scenes that could change the console routing etc. can't be referred to as a show file changing parameters. If the show file contains scenes that have routing changes, etc., loading any scene will change the console state, from what you seem to be saying.

I think you need to look at this from the perspective of the BE, too. In his shoes, I wouldn't want ANY remnants of someone elses show left on the desk. Nothing.

SNIP

I'm suspecting it's the difference in work we do, Dan, but in my world a BE doesn't come up and load a foreign file at showtime. We deal with this at sound check. If a BE is delayed, nobody else on the crew has the file (happens on fly dates), I'll get the show file upon arrival, load it into a laptop and fix any routing issues, save back to USB stick and then load from it. In X32 Edit, you could fix or change whatever and then sync the desk to the computer, same with Yamaha. SNIP

I agree it should be taken care of at soundcheck, but if there's no soundcheck at a festival....

And it depends on what "remnants of someone else's show" means. If it has to do with the input side of the console and FX and stuff like that, I agree.

If it's on the output side or system processing or overall EQ, I think it's argueable at least. The PA has been analyzed and an overall EQ set within the console. Someone walks in and that EQ disappears? I agree they have control over the EQ for their set, and that I could then go back to what I previously had, but it seems an abrupt jump to immediately discard EQ that has taken time to build and start from scratch.

Your way of loading a BE's file into a laptop for routing and processing editing seems appropriate; BE's are fine with that?

I didn't read the discussion on the LAB, not hanging around there very much anymore.

Thanks to both,
Dan

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

This says to me that all parameters of the console are fair game to be changed by a loaded file, and there's no way to preclude that, which is in disagreement with what I thought I knew.

I get the difference between a show file and a scene (a show is just a collection of scenes, right?), and see no reason that a show file containing scenes that could change the console routing etc. can't be referred to as a show file changing parameters. If the show file contains scenes that have routing changes, etc., loading any scene will change the console state, from what you seem to be saying.



I agree it should be taken care of at soundcheck, but if there's no soundcheck at a festival....

And it depends on what "remnants of someone else's show" means. If it has to do with the input side of the console and FX and stuff like that, I agree.

If it's on the output side or system processing or overall EQ, I think it's argueable at least. The PA has been analyzed and an overall EQ set within the console. Someone walks in and that EQ disappears? I agree they have control over the EQ for their set, and that I could then go back to what I previously had, but it seems an abrupt jump to immediately discard EQ that has taken time to build and start from scratch.

Your way of loading a BE's file into a laptop for routing and processing editing seems appropriate; BE's are fine with that?

I didn't read the discussion on the LAB, not hanging around there very much anymore.

Thanks to both,
Dan

BE's with a show files simply aren't allowed to load a show file into a hot console unless we've previously looked at it, either on the desk at sound check, or on my laptop. If it comes down to it, I'll mute the system and we'll conform his file on set change, but that's saved for the rare circumstances of very late arrival or instances where house music for changeover is flexible.

As for BEs liking or not liking, it's been a non-issue. I've yet to have a BE object to checking his file for routing and other configuration issues before we load the show into the desk.

This is also a good reason to use a System Controller (or its software equal, like System Architect) to do the system work, rather than having the console do it. I preached this in the big X32 thread but was voted off the island. Using the right tool for a job made me some kind of system elitist, I guess.

Don't get me wrong, Dan, I can see the utility of partial loading and I think the new Yamaha QL desks support Scene import without loading a full show file (with console config). That may have been Berry's intent as well, but not documented or explained.

The more I learn about the quirks of the X32, the more intriguing it becomes.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Behringer X32 Firmware v3.0 Feature Requests

BE's with a show files simply aren't allowed to load a show file into a hot console unless we've previously looked at it, either on the desk at sound check, or on my laptop. If it comes down to it, I'll mute the system and we'll conform his file on set change, but that's saved for the rare circumstances of very late arrival or instances where house music for changeover is flexible.

As for BEs liking or not liking, it's been a non-issue. I've yet to have a BE object to checking his file for routing and other configuration issues before we load the show into the desk.

This is also a good reason to use a System Controller (or its software equal, like System Architect) to do the system work, rather than having the console do it. I preached this in the big X32 thread but was voted off the island. Using the right tool for a job made me some kind of system elitist, I guess.

Don't get me wrong, Dan, I can see the utility of partial loading and I think the new Yamaha QL desks support Scene import without loading a full show file (with console config). That may have been Berry's intent as well, but not documented or explained.

The more I learn about the quirks of the X32, the more intriguing it becomes.

Thanks for the explanations, Tim.

Regarding the right tool for the job discussion, I think I didn't participate because it's important to remember that the big thread is in JV, which is defined as hobbyists and weekend warriors. Adding a Meyer Galileo or System Controller (I don't even know what that is but assume it's similar to Galileo and it's not worth 5 seconds to look it up) is not part of that mindset. Using the console as a crossover, too, seems to me to asking for trouble, but, again, if you're trying to save money/spend no money you max out your options.

One of the many things I don't understand about the console is editing off-line; I've tried it briefly on the iPad and had no success, or at least couldn't tell that I was having success. This conversation will make me make more of an effort.

The partial loading thing: I think it was discussed early on in my experience with the console, which would have been around Oct-Nov-Dec 2012. I don't think it's been elaborated on since, and it seems like Per might be agreeing that there can be partial loading. Being able to stop parameters from loading made sense to me then and makes sense to me now. In a few minutes I'm going to set up two consoles and share scenes back and forth and see what the deal really is.

It's nice to hear that we are intriguing you, and drawing you ever more into our web.

:evil:

That's the evil smiley, apparently.

The console family really has a personality, definitely. It's like audio itself: there is always more to learn, you never get to the end of it. There are many facets and many possible specialties, and that's why I like audio, both as my business and as my hobby. And I work weekends!