New Midas M32 Console

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Brandon Blakeney said:
Riders are typically specific about which model/product lines are preferred even within brands. I see riders all the time with EAW.

J.B.L. seems to have some real "crapola" lines on the lower end, yet they are on riders all the time.
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In my world you hardly ever see EAW, its d&b and L-Acoustics, some Nexo, Adamson and JBL Vertec and not much else. JBL is an intersting comparison. Music Group hopefully will be able to do what they have done and have their MI range coexist with the Pro range, but its not easy.

All they needed to do with their stage rack was make it look more Midas like, not like they had just put a Midas badge on a Behringer product. I'm sure its better inside but, thats not the point. If they are not careful Midas will become associate with behringer. A lot of people I know have refused to buy the X32 just because of the name.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Peter Morris said:
In my world you hardly ever see EAW, its d&b and L-Acoustics, some Nexo, Adamson and JBL Vertec and not much else. JBL is an intersting comparison. Music Group hopefully will be able to do what they have done and have their MI range coexist with the Pro range, but its not easy.

All they needed to do with their stage rack was make it look more Midas like, not like they had just put a Midas badge on a Behringer product. I'm sure its better inside but, thats not the point. If they are not careful Midas will become associate with behringer. A lot of people I know have refused to buy the X32 just because of the name.
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Good points, D&B and L-Acoustics is out of my range. I do see KF850, Vertec, Nexo, etc... on riders that I get. I never see TVI, which is what I have, but nobody has ever refused it or complained about it.

Speaking of X32, I'm missing a barrel on one of the XLR's on my snake because it was being used on someone's X32 and it wouldn't come out of their console at the end of the night. (Refer to my past rant about people not using the console provided by the sound company). :)
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Peter Morris said:
As I understand, when the X32 was first introsduced, Behringer said it had Midas pre-amps.
http://www.behringer.com/en/products/x32.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/en/products/S16.aspx
Then in this case the only difference is the connectors, the A/D’s and the badge …anyway …
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Well, the x32 has preamps designed by midas so per definition they are midas preamps.

But you have to realize that different products exist within a brand. Take coca cola. They have the cherry, light, standard, etc products within its brand.

Just like the midas preamps you have different flavours. Maybe the preamps should have specific names to differentiate them from the others. But I can tell you that when doing a live show what preamps I'm using is the least of my problems.

About the stuck xlr's this has always been an issue in general with locking xlr's during my lifetime. The x32 uses neutrik quality connectors and not some no-name stuff. There is a reason why I hate locking xlr's... What was the quality of the barrel that was stuck and in what shape?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Robert Lofgren said:
Well, the x32 has preamps designed by midas so per definition they are midas preamps.

But you have to realize that different products exist within a brand. Take coca cola. They have the cherry, light, standard, etc products within its brand.

Just like the midas preamps you have different flavours. Maybe the preamps should have specific names to differentiate them from the others. But I can tell you that when doing a live show what preamps I'm using is the least of my problems.

About the stuck xlr's this has always been an issue in general with locking xlr's during my lifetime. The x32 uses neutrik quality connectors and not some no-name stuff. There is a reason why I hate locking xlr's... What was the quality of the barrel that was stuck and in what shape?
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This raises a fair question.... that may make some people uncomfortable to inspect too closely. What makes a mic preamp a "midas" preamp? The inference is that a preamp designed by engineers from a more expensive brand will sound and be better. In my experience it is harder to design circuitry for value products than for premium products where you don't have the same strict cost constraints, so a value preamp designed by premium engineers without the same cost discipline** might actually perform worse. The reality these days is that most preamps (especially digitally controlled mic preamps) use canned off the shelf ICs, while the Midas engineers would be wise to make their actual preamps different to justify price differences to the Midas customers.

This is a difficult line to walk and be true both ways. The X32 customers wants to believe their preamps are "the same as", and Midas customers want to believe their's are better. One option available to Midas to differentiate these two preamps is to implement their preamp soft overload circuit. While a purist might debate whether this is really better, it is different and a feature that some customers appreciate.

Some of the Midas digital consoles allow the digital FS to be tweaked wrt analog clipping/limiting threshold, making for an interesting trade-off between noise floor and headroom, and ability to adjust how much limiting coloration is available. I do not know if M32 has this extra digital input stage gain adjustment or not.

A subtle difference in the marketing messaging for the X-32 claims preamps designed by Midas engineers (from a company famous for award winning preamps), and the M32 says they actually use the award winning Midas preamps.

This suggests to me that the preamps would be different, and the M32 overload behavior would sound different than the X32 preamp hard clipping, but I am just speculating based on published promotional copy.

JR

*** engineering cost discipline these days may be a moving target. Classically it was about component cost and labor content. These days with highly automated production assembly lines, located in far away lands, direct labor costs are easier to manage. Component costs involve another variable related to purchasing scale. The number of mic preamp channels that Behringer sells are many times more than Midas, so Behringer could buy the exact same parts for lower cost than Midas.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

From what I gather the preamps in the X32, AD8200 and the new audio interfaces are the same as those in the original Venice consoles (the ones with the small faders that were built during Bosch ownership) and do not exhibit the signature midas soft overload behaviour.

The ones in the M32 however are the XL4/XL8/PRO series design and as such have the signature midas soft overload behaviour.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Tim McCulloch said:
Well, I didn't address the other issues, but since you insist:

96k is voodoo bullshit in LIVE audio. If you're recording for potential public release, you MIGHT hear a difference at the studio/mastering stage. IMNSHO by the time it arrives in the public's ears, any differences will be moot. From a live sonic standpoint, I'll wager that 99% of audio engineers could not correctly & consistently identify 48/96 mixing in situ in live audio circumstances. There are blind studies of this in controlled listening environments and the successful identification there was <15%. These were "golden ears" folks listening on gear that is specifically designed for critical listening, not PA for the masses.

The only advantages I can see to the M32 are direct connectability to the K-T world of signal distribution and more robust faders. The nicer design of the desk itself is also welcome... but in the end, it's still an X32 in Midas drag (and drag is VERY British ;) ). If there is some sonic difference, it's a DIFFERENCE (and therefore a MARKETING "feature")... but to claim that a difference makes for sonic superiority, in and of itself, is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. You can like, prefer, and exclusively use this difference if you like, but it's no more superior than anything else.

Or if it helps the ridiculously strong placebo effect here, consider the X32 to a crippled M32 in Behringer drag....
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Tim is right on the money. In a studio you could hear it, but on a live system I doubt that many will hear a difference between the two.
Even the mic pre will be so close that only an A/B with IEM's could hear it. Into a monitor or the mains, no way unless you are Clark Kent.

I'll give you that the fader changes would be nice to have the M fader over the X but the DSP chip is the same. The CPU is to have more memory on the M and a bit more speed. You can't hear that difference either. BTW the X32 lit says 96k is possible in the future.

You do not have to justify yourself here, buy the $2K more expensive console. There are many good reasons to do so on looks alone, but there is not a $2K increase of audio quality.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Daniel Levi said:
From what I gather the preamps in the X32, AD8200 and the new audio interfaces are the same as those in the original Venice consoles (the ones with the small faders that were built during Bosch ownership) and do not exhibit the signature midas soft overload behaviour.
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Are you talking about all-analog Venice? Not likely to use an all analog preamp in a console with digital preamp gain control. If the preamp gain pot is a real analog pot maybe, but if the preamp gain control is a digital encoder or remote controlled via digital it is likely using one of two popular modern preamp ICs with digital gain control built in.


The ones in the M32 however are the XL4/XL8/PRO series design and as such have the signature midas soft overload behaviour.
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and the Midas Venice U and Venice F.

JR
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

John Roberts said:
Are you talking about all-analog Venice? Not likely to use an all analog preamp in a console with digital preamp gain control. If the preamp gain pot is a real analog pot maybe, but if the preamp gain control is a digital encoder or remote controlled via digital it is likely using one of two popular modern preamp ICs with digital gain control built in.





and the Midas Venice U and Venice F.

JR
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Yes the analog one, but with digitally controlled gain. or at least a similar design. The XL4 was pretty much all analogue and yet the XL8 preamps were still derived from it.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Dear All,

Allow me to clarify. None of the MIDAS mic pres are IC based and instead feature discrete designs where the gain VR is replaced by digitally controlled resistor switching arrays.

The M32's preamp and output stages are identical to the PRO Series consoles. This also includes the AD/DA converters which results in an overall 3-4 dB improved signal-to-noise ratio compared to the X32.

Best,
Chase McKnight
Specialist, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
MIDAS
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

John Roberts said:
... What makes a mic preamp a "midas" preamp?...
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In 2014 ....marketing.

I will also suggest that "the Midas sound" comes from more than the overload characteristics of the Mic-pre, but also how other parts of the desk handle overload. What people like about the Midas is they could mix with poor gain structure and get away with it. Midas XL series desks overloaded softly. That translated into people talking about mic-pre head room and magic.

John Roberts said:
...This is a difficult line to walk and be true both ways. The X32 customers wants to believe their preamps are "the same as", and Midas customers want to believe their's are better...
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Exactly - and when the Midas customer’s think Midas = Behringer they will find someone else’s desk to mix on.
Behringers marketing people have to leverage off of Midas as they have done. They also have to preserve the iconic status of Midas (KT & Turbosound) so they can keep doing it for a long time.

The low end of the market belongs to Behringer's X32 and Allen & Health Qu and GLDs. The Pro2 was becoming a seriuos player in the bottom end of the Pro Market .... The Pro X ....
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

Peter Morris said:
In 2014 ....marketing.

I will also suggest that "the Midas sound" comes from more than the overload characteristics of the Mic-pre, but also how other parts of the desk handle overload. What people like about the Midas is they could mix with poor gain structure and get away with it. Midas XL series desks overloaded softly. That translated into people talking about mic-pre head room and magic.



Exactly - and when the Midas customer’s think Midas = Behringer they will find someone else’s desk to mix on.
Behringers marketing people have to leverage off of Midas as they have done. They also have to preserve the iconic status of Midas (KT & Turbosound) so they can keep doing it for a long time.

The low end of the market belongs to Behringer's X32 and Allen & Health Qu and GLDs. The Pro2 was becoming a seriuos player in the bottom end of the Pro Market .... The Pro X ....
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I agree all the way around, Peter.

And I think the Pro2 is competent mixer and if I got to spend more time on it, might well like it. I'm not anti-Midas, I'm anti-hype.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

[IMG said:
https://soundforums.net/threads/9126-New-Midas-M32-Console/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by Peter Morris As I understand, when the X32 was first introsduced, Behringer said it had Midas pre-amps.
http://www.behringer.com/en/products/x32.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/en/products/S16.aspx
Then in this case the only difference is the connectors, the A/D’s and the badge …anyway …



Robert Lofgren;83075]Well, the x32 has preamps designed by midas so per definition they are midas preamps.

But you have to realize that different products exist within a brand. Take coca cola. They have the cherry, light, standard, etc products within its brand.

Just like the midas preamps you have different flavours. Maybe the preamps should have specific names to differentiate them from the others. But I can tell you that when doing a live show what preamps I'm using is the least of my problems.

About the stuck xlr's this has always been an issue in general with locking xlr's during my lifetime. The x32 uses neutrik quality connectors and not some no-name stuff. There is a reason why I hate locking xlr's... What was the quality of the barrel that was stuck and in what shape?
[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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Seems like an endless discussion, MIDAS - not MIDAS. According to one of MIDAS engineers post here (earlier in this thread, forgot his name), DL16/M32 preamps are identical to Pro line preamps, S16/X32 are different. The real question is how much the actual sonic difference will be between S16/DL16 and X32/M32 and also 96K vs. 48K in the real world, at the gigs where these desks will be used most often: clubs, small-to-medium churches, corporate, etc. But once again, until we'll get M32/DL16 in our hands it's just guessing and hearsay. There will be some measurable differences, may be noticeable in studio or in a testing lab, but for real work….. I doubt there will be much.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

"Endless discussion" maybe but the gang here is informative and I for one like spending my slow time reading the post's. Great group of guys here Arik, your welcome here and I hope you will add your input.
The value of the Pro-2 i would hope stays up. I will take mine to my grave as i like it over any desk I have worked on. Took me a while to get around it.
So back to topic... I work with a few bands that are IEM's. A buddy has a x-32 and i loaned him my IEM's. the band asked why there was so much Echo? after the first set they all asked to go back to the floor monitors. No he didnt have any delay set. So if they all complained about the same thing, could it be the latency in the converters? I haven't had that problem with the Pro-2 / DL-251.
I also would like if Gator would price the case and send a few to my dealer. Transporting a M-32 in a cardboard box for a week or two sounds a bit crazy.
I admit, I ramble to much...
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

I doubt that. The I-O latency spec is "<1ms" console in to console out, and "<2ms" stagebox in to stagebox out. The console I-O time is more than half that of an M7 or LS9 (2.5ms), slightly less than GLD (1.5 ms). Digico says SD9 is "typical 2ms", 1.1ms @ 96k.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Mike Devore said:
"Endless discussion" maybe but the gang here is informative and I for one like spending my slow time reading the post's. Great group of guys here Arik, your welcome here and I hope you will add your input.
The value of the Pro-2 i would hope stays up. I will take mine to my grave as i like it over any desk I have worked on. Took me a while to get around it.
So back to topic... I work with a few bands that are IEM's. A buddy has a x-32 and i loaned him my IEM's. the band asked why there was so much Echo? after the first set they all asked to go back to the floor monitors. No he didnt have any delay set. So if they all complained about the same thing, could it be the latency in the converters? I haven't had that problem with the Pro-2 / DL-251.
I also would like if Gator would price the case and send a few to my dealer. Transporting a M-32 in a cardboard box for a week or two sounds a bit crazy.
I admit, I ramble to much...
Click to expand...

There isn't enough latency to be perceived as echo. With latencies of a couple milliseconds you're talking about an intra-aural mixing of bone conductivity and the IEM that would sound more like a guitar phase shifter or unswept flange effect. For the echo, I suggest that the band members had a poor seal between the IEM and their ear canals and were hearing the stage wash or house mix. Another possibility is that they were using too much level at the IEM pack, singing softer and getting more stage bleed into their vocal mics, but the times involved are probably more like 10ms-15ms. We tend to perceive distinct echos or delays with times >40ms.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Mike Devore said:
"Endless discussion" maybe but the gang here is informative and I for one like spending my slow time reading the post's. Great group of guys here Arik, your welcome here and I hope you will add your input.
The value of the Pro-2 i would hope stays up. I will take mine to my grave as i like it over any desk I have worked on. Took me a while to get around it.
So back to topic... I work with a few bands that are IEM's. A buddy has a x-32 and i loaned him my IEM's. the band asked why there was so much Echo? after the first set they all asked to go back to the floor monitors. No he didnt have any delay set. So if they all complained about the same thing, could it be the latency in the converters? I haven't had that problem with the Pro-2 / DL-251.
I also would like if Gator would price the case and send a few to my dealer. Transporting a M-32 in a cardboard box for a week or two sounds a bit crazy.
I admit, I ramble to much...
Click to expand...

As I posted the X-32 has been vetted for IEM use and latency is short enough to not be a problem.

I would investigate what the muso means by Echo... generally a major fraction of a second or more...

Perhaps a polarity issue if listening to their own voice on ears. Might cause a hollow sound if there is bass cancellation from flipped polarity.

Or maybe somebody put efx on the iem mix? :)

JR
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

He wont admit to it if efx were inserted. That's my bet as well. Question to throw out there: On the pad ap, I have often wanted gain control due to a channel set high or low. I'm away from the desk and would like to correct the problem and go on with my work on stage. Is there a disadvantage to this or am i asking for a valued option? btw its a pro-2 desk but i would also like that option on the M-32. I'm not sure if the app would allow for stage box and desk gain on the screen and be able to swap between them.
If anyone discovers an m-32 case ready for shipping, let me know. (gator) would be nice to get one on the way. Hope ya all's weekend is full of rentals ! (very Texas of me)
At 96k, isn't the AES-50 limited to 24 in and 24 out?
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Arik Semagin said:
Seems like an endless discussion, MIDAS - not MIDAS. According to one of MIDAS engineers post here (earlier in this thread, forgot his name), DL16/M32 preamps are identical to Pro line preamps, S16/X32 are different. The real question is how much the actual sonic difference will be between S16/DL16 and X32/M32 and also 96K vs. 48K in the real world, at the gigs where these desks will be used most often: clubs, small-to-medium churches, corporate, etc. But once again, until we'll get M32/DL16 in our hands it's just guessing and hearsay. There will be some measurable differences, may be noticeable in studio or in a testing lab, but for real work….. I doubt there will be much.
Click to expand...

Depends on the PA and the environment.
 
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