New Midas M32 Console

Re: New Midas M32 Console

Jay Barracato said:
Its not just the possibility of getting lost. It is the number of steps to get to the control you need. I am rolling along during a show with the left faders on the second bank so the lead vocal is under my fingers and the effects sends on the third bank of the right faders preparing for the next song. The acoustic bass starts to take off in the monitor channel. The frequency that is taking off because it is building up under the tent over the stage has been noticeably missing in the foh system.

What steps do you have to go through to first pull down the bass in the monitor, second adjust the eq for just the monitor, and then bring the level back up?

Did I mention you are standing side stage where you cannot clearly hear either the monitors or the mains, and while there is an iPad provided with the board, because we were the last band of the day it is now being recharged and would be useless anyway because the band attracted 10 times more people to that stage than it is seen all day and they are packed elbow to asshole and there is no way to step away from the board to hear the speakers.

Welcome to the walk up gig at a street fair provided by the company with a nice new stack of x32s

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Click to expand...
Lets count
1-Select correct input layer
2-Hit UDK for sends on fader
3-Pull the bass fader
4-Hit UDK for Eq
5-Pull correct freq.
6-Hit UDK for sends on fader
7-Push fader bass fader back up

Same as a LS9, M7, Venue, Pro series like all desk's with 16 input faders. I know the B name makes me not like it as much as other consoles BUT it 100% sounds better than a LS9 or M7CL.

Regardless of all of that I can't wait for my M32's to come in. Come to one of my shows and decline a X32 or M32 and you will be watching me mix your band or you can wait in the bus. It's a fact that most every band I have seen this summer have been travelling with a X32 rack in they're IEM rack and love it and so do I. Thank god the days of hunting down that specific EQ or Comp for the touring guy who specs the best of best but doesn't even own any gear of his own or know how to use what he specs.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

Scott the under the hood was done a while ago and two DSP Sharc 3's are in the X32. In an interview with two of the key developers the performance was addressed and they stated that the DSP's were close to being maxed out. The architecture however lend itself to additional DSP's for more performance. This would be the way to 96k for the M32 and four DSP's should be adequate, more would be better. The series 4 Sharc's are not pin compatible and also have many more features not to ignore. That would entail a major redesign. So hopefully Midas included the extra DSP's for a future software upgrade. This would entail a redistribution of processing loads. A non trivial task in and of itself. 96k A/D D/A is all you need for 96K.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Brian Wynn said:
Lets count
1-Select correct input layer
2-Hit UDK for sends on fader
3-Pull the bass fader
4-Hit UDK for Eq
5-Pull correct freq.
6-Hit UDK for sends on fader
7-Push fader bass fader back up

Same as a LS9, M7, Venue, Pro series like all desk's with 16 input faders. I know the B name makes me not like it as much as other consoles BUT it 100% sounds better than a LS9 or M7CL.

Regardless of all of that I can't wait for my M32's to come in. Come to one of my shows and decline a X32 or M32 and you will be watching me mix your band or you can wait in the bus. It's a fact that most every band I have seen this summer have been travelling with a X32 rack in they're IEM rack and love it and so do I. Thank god the days of hunting down that specific EQ or Comp for the touring guy who specs the best of best but doesn't even own any gear of his own or know how to use what he specs.
Click to expand...

I can just see my self walking up at a street festival and saying "Hi I am Jay. I am the FOH tech for (insert band name). I hope I have not made you uncomfortable about having me mix on your rig. I see you have brought a shiny new x32. I have found some limitations in the surface when mixing on it in the past. I hope you have saved your show because i plan on rerouting any dca's you have and redefining your udk's to do what I want."

And by the way on an ls9 you still have the mix button to directly put any mix on the faders without having to make sure that mix is the top bank of faders before selecting, and on a venue/sc48 there isn't any need to put it on the faders in the first place. Select the channel and duck the send with the mouse and adjust the eq with the encoders or vice versa. You can do both things at once.

Back in the 90's I worked in a chemistry lab and the lead researcher owned a Mercedes 380sl convertible. A couple of times a year he would go overseas for a month at a time and he would leave the car with me because he wanted it run on a regular basis.

I hated driving that car. I just wasn't comfortable driving that car. The seat was too low making the angle with the pedals and the steering wheel off kilter.

That doesn't mean it was badly engineered. That doesn't mean it didn't work exactly as engineered. It means I didn't like it.

Fortunately there were other cars available that meet the same general function that I didn't hate.

Different strokes for different folks.

And it is very apparent to me that my opinion isn't going to be changed by internet conversation. Maybe my opinion will be changed down the road by some aha moment, but right now it remains, when I walk up to the mixer I know I can get the exact show/mix that I want but I am not going to enjoy doing it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

All the time... To the point where I don't bother with specific equipment on a rider but instead focus on function. In the bluegrass world it is typical to have a big paycheck show with production to match that makes it worth going on the road. That big show is bracketed by smaller shows as routing dates. In any week I could see any range of rigs from a 8 channel peavey mixer with no outboard and a pair of eons to a profile with full vertex hangs.

One of my selling points to the bands is that I can get them a fairly consistent show regardless of what is provided.

I dealt with the most minimal rigs simply by carrying my own compact FOH and SOS system.

As a result most of what I consider "non negotiable" on what I use as a rider has to do with safety; electrical, staging, etc.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

By the way, even if the band did enforce a rider; despite my dislike, I still wouldn't list an x32 as a not acceptable piece of equipment.

As I said, I am going to smile at the system tech, give the band a thumbs up, and do a show. I may be screaming and pulling my hair inside but no one will ever see or hear that outside. If the workflow causes something to drag out or heaven forbid miss a cue, I will discuss that with the band later in private.

And for the folks that think the tech hired by the band can just stay on the bus I would just ask: At some point in the set that has no set list, you will need to identify a song by the way the singer introduces it. That song requires 4 different effects cues, one set of effects for the intro/ outro, one set for the verses, and another for the bridge. Are you ready for that?

I am.

That's why they are paying me to be there.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Jay Barracato said:
By the way, even if the band did enforce a rider; despite my dislike, I still wouldn't list an x32 as a not acceptable piece of equipment.

As I said, I am going to smile at the system tech, give the band a thumbs up, and do a show. I may be screaming and pulling my hair inside but no one will ever see or hear that outside. If the workflow causes something to drag out or heaven forbid miss a cue, I will discuss that with the band later in private.

And for the folks that think the tech hired by the band can just stay on the bus I would just ask: At some point in the set that has no set list, you will need to identify a song by the way the singer introduces it. That song requires 4 different effects cues, one set of effects for the intro/ outro, one set for the verses, and another for the bridge. Are you ready for that?

I am.

That's why they are paying me to be there.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Click to expand...

EFX in bluegrass? The heresy!
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Tim McCulloch said:
EFX in bluegrass? The heresy!
Click to expand...

Well a mountain dulcimer does sound pretty good through a leslie simulator. But the band with all the effects changes is actually the blues band I am often seen with.

But seriously, I like to create a new pallet of effects for each song, and having their own tech step up to the board and use different effects is one way a band can make themselves stand out in a festival setting (for better or occasionally for worse). And I hate when they don't even have basic comps or effects at FOH because it is just bluegrass...

All of which has nothing to do with M32's or X32's and how many popped up at festivals this year.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Jay Barracato said:
Well a mountain dulcimer does sound pretty good through a leslie simulator. But the band with all the effects changes is actually the blues band I am often seen with.

But seriously, I like to create a new pallet of effects for each song, and having their own tech step up to the board and use different effects is one way a band can make themselves stand out in a festival setting (for better or occasionally for worse). And I hate when they don't even have basic comps or effects at FOH because it is just bluegrass...

All of which has nothing to do with M32's or X32's and how many popped up at festivals this year.
Click to expand...

20+ years ago I was told "forget you have a reverb unit, and don't even think about echo". I still mix traditional bluegrass straight up without EFX. Now compressors... once over, lightly, on vocals and for instruments where the player tends to be uneven. Audiences, however, are increasingly expecting sound like they hear in their personal player machine ear buds. My mixing levels have increased over 6dB in the last 4 or 5 years and have an even greater emphasis on vocals (I mix vocals on top to start with).

As for what you encounter at a festival, we accommodate the BEs as best we can. If you have a console file for your act and whatever mixer we provide, we'll gladly save our setup to USB and load your show, fix the i/o routing as needed, and hand you the keys... just leave some fuel in the tank and don't break the speed limit. ;) I expect the same level of service when I'm the BE, so I'll provide that level of service, too.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Tim McCulloch said:
20+ years ago I was told "forget you have a reverb unit, and don't even think about echo". I still mix traditional bluegrass straight up without EFX. Now compressors... once over, lightly, on vocals and for instruments where the player tends to be uneven. Audiences, however, are increasingly expecting sound like they hear in their personal player machine ear buds. My mixing levels have increased over 6dB in the last 4 or 5 years and have an even greater emphasis on vocals (I mix vocals on top to start with).

As for what you encounter at a festival, we accommodate the BEs as best we can. If you have a console file for your act and whatever mixer we provide, we'll gladly save our setup to USB and load your show, fix the i/o routing as needed, and hand you the keys... just leave some fuel in the tank and don't break the speed limit. ;) I expect the same level of service when I'm the BE, so I'll provide that level of service, too.
Click to expand...

I mix the band the way they want to be heard and don't worry about labels.

But there is a lot you can do with efx that is below the threshold of apparently there that adds to the total mix.

I can't count the number of times that artists who are usually used to perfectly dry vocals have complimented me for that subtle use of efx while claiming not to want or need it.

And there is definitely an art to setting up your stage at a festival so you are receptive to meeting the needs of the bands tech.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

William Kueppers said:
Scott the under the hood was done a while ago and two DSP Sharc 3's are in the X32. In an interview with two of the key developers the performance was addressed and they stated that the DSP's were close to being maxed out. The architecture however lend itself to additional DSP's for more performance. This would be the way to 96k for the M32 and four DSP's should be adequate, more would be better. The series 4 Sharc's are not pin compatible and also have many more features not to ignore. That would entail a major redesign. So hopefully Midas included the extra DSP's for a future software upgrade. This would entail a redistribution of processing loads. A non trivial task in and of itself. 96k A/D D/A is all you need for 96K.
Click to expand...

Hi William (Bill?),

I knew the X32 was sporting a pair of Sharc 3's... I have the specific version somewhere on my computer. I was hoping to get a look under the hood of the M32. Do you have a picture of the new console?

I somehow doubt that the M32 is housing 4 Sharc 3's ..... although I do agree with your assertion that this would be the easiest way to get to 96K from 48K. The reason I doubt it is that the current revision of shipping firmware on the M32 is 2.07 vs 2.06 on the X32. As you point out, such a redistribution of workload would require quite a bit of work .... more than a minor rev of firmware I would think...... but I could be wrong ;)

There is also the possibility that the M32 actually has 4 Sharc 3's but is currently only utilizing 2 in the interest of getting the product out.

As for the sample rate, you are correct. I got carried away with my doubling of doubling with respect to the Nyquist frequency.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Scott Bolt said:
Hi William (Bill?),

I knew the X32 was sporting a pair of Sharc 3's... I have the specific version somewhere on my computer. I was hoping to get a look under the hood of the M32. Do you have a picture of the new console?

I somehow doubt that the M32 is housing 4 Sharc 3's ..... although I do agree with your assertion that this would be the easiest way to get to 96K from 48K. The reason I doubt it is that the current revision of shipping firmware on the M32 is 2.07 vs 2.06 on the X32. As you point out, such a redistribution of workload would require quite a bit of work .... more than a minor rev of firmware I would think...... but I could be wrong ;)

There is also the possibility that the M32 actually has 4 Sharc 3's but is currently only utilizing 2 in the interest of getting the product out.

As for the sample rate, you are correct. I got carried away with my doubling of doubling with respect to the Nyquist frequency.
Click to expand...


I was told by the powers that be at Midas that the M32 will never do 96K in itself. But they are going to release a 48K and 96K AES50 card for the Network bridge and that is how it will be achieved. Now that being said the X32 will be just as capable as the M32 with the bridge.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Brian Wynn said:
I was told by the powers that be at Midas that the M32 will never do 96K in itself. But they are going to release a 48K and 96K AES50 card for the Network bridge and that is how it will be achieved. Now that being said the X32 will be just as capable as the M32 with the bridge.
Click to expand...
No matter how you deliver the data stream it still has to be processed by the mixer. This is not possible without further processing power. Midas powers to be or not. Here is the interview with the key developer of the X32 Dr. Thomas Zint.
http://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/behringer-x32-interview.html
Yes you will need a 96k capable AES50 port into the M32 which I believe the X32 doesn't have.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

A 48K AES50 card for the bridge would definitely be good news for integration, and I think such a thing would sell as hotcakes. Of course, the point is not doing 96K on the M32 or X32, but having the ability to integrate with a Pro system. The integration opens for endless possibilities that has got nothing to do with processing at 96K but everything to do with being able to communicate with a 96K system.

As for M32 having upgraded or extra processors, is there even a remote probability that the M32 has got anything extra that the marketing would not be mentioning? I doubt it very much.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Considering the frequency range that 48K can cover (24K and below), I find it hard to believe that the added frequency response would have any audible effect on sound quality. I believe that the primary purpose of 96K processing is to cut the internal latencies in half so that a more pure mixing of different signal paths can be performed ...... which should give you a better sound.

It is of course useful to be able to integrate with 96K AES50 peripherals as well as Per points out.

It seems like a bad architectural move for Music Group to deviate the M32 in any meaningful way from the X32 from a hardware and firmware perspective (with the exception of graphics and physical controls which they have already done). The engineering effort required for such an endeavor would be costly and difficult to get a ROI from I expect.

I am guessing the only way for the M32 to be "96K ready" would be the expansion card interface mentioned.
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Scott Bolt said:
Considering the frequency range that 48K can cover (24K and below), I find it hard to believe that the added frequency response would have any audible effect on sound quality. I believe that the primary purpose of 96K processing is to cut the internal latencies in half so that a more pure mixing of different signal paths can be performed ...... which should give you a better sound.

It is of course useful to be able to integrate with 96K AES50 peripherals as well as Per points out.

It seems like a bad architectural move for Music Group to deviate the M32 in any meaningful way from the X32 from a hardware and firmware perspective (with the exception of graphics and physical controls which they have already done). The engineering effort required for such an endeavor would be costly and difficult to get a ROI from I expect.

I am guessing the only way for the M32 to be "96K ready" would be the expansion card interface mentioned.
Click to expand...

It seems like a useful marketing difference to help customers justify the higher purchase price, whether audible or not.

JR
 
Re: New Midas M32 Console

Scott Bolt said:
Do you think that processing latency is decreased, or is that more marketing?
Click to expand...

When only the expansion card is upgraded to 96k, then there wouldn't be any difference in processing latency. Maybe the 96k on the expansion board needs another sample to get the data to be converted. I think it only provids a solution for connections to a 96k system.
 
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Re: New Midas M32 Console

What about an expansion that goes directly into the m32 that provides a 96khz aes50 interface and converts it on the card to the 44.1/48KHz expansion slot interface. Bypassing the need for a DN9650
 
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