New Midas M32 Console
- Thread starter Juergen Riemann
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Re: New Midas M32 Console
How is that? Behringer has Midas in it, Midas has Behringer in it. Nobody know what is what! That is not brand management that is chaos.
I find plenty to be critical of Behringer for, but their brand management seems to be well executed...
JR
How is that? Behringer has Midas in it, Midas has Behringer in it. Nobody know what is what! That is not brand management that is chaos.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
Maybe you don't know what is what...
Sent from my iPhone
Maybe you don't know what is what...
Sent from my iPhone
Re: New Midas M32 Console
And you think that all JBL, EV etc. is same quality level across the range?
And you think that all JBL, EV etc. is same quality level across the range?
Re: New Midas M32 Console
Well said.
I find it difficult as an EE to constantly read about people crooning on and on about how big a difference preamps make when all the engineering data says otherwise.
I find it completely believable that some preamps have a more pleasing default sound (no eq); however, anything that could be done by the pre's could also have been done with the channel strip IMHO.
I also have found that people tend to believe that differences in sound quality they hear from one console to the next is due to the preamps. I know there are differences; however, I find it much more likely that the internal processing of the signal is the reason .... not the preamps.
I have heard more than one person state that when they A/B the X32 pres to the M32 pres (or the DL251), there is a small preceptable difference in sound (with the MIDAS pre's being slightly preferred). I just wonder if one were to take an X32 console and an M32 console and tweak each to the most desirable sound, if you could still call out one over the other in a double blind test. I doubt it.
The M32 is worth the extra money for many people. A MIDAS console is more rider friendly, and the mechanical design is more robust as are the faders.
This is just smart marketing IMHO.
FWIW consumers generally ASSume that console mic pre amps must be inferior to stand alone pre amps, because the stand alone pre amps cost more. Stand alone preamps cost more, everything else equal, because the packaging and power supply overhead must be fully absorbed by the lower retail price. A x2 pre amp will be even more expensive (per input) while still looking too cheap to be competitive with a premium stand alone preamp and (probably) an even smaller seller.
There are lots of "funny" market perceptions surrounding consoles... glad I don't have to deal them any more.
JR
Well said.
I find it difficult as an EE to constantly read about people crooning on and on about how big a difference preamps make when all the engineering data says otherwise.
I find it completely believable that some preamps have a more pleasing default sound (no eq); however, anything that could be done by the pre's could also have been done with the channel strip IMHO.
I also have found that people tend to believe that differences in sound quality they hear from one console to the next is due to the preamps. I know there are differences; however, I find it much more likely that the internal processing of the signal is the reason .... not the preamps.
I have heard more than one person state that when they A/B the X32 pres to the M32 pres (or the DL251), there is a small preceptable difference in sound (with the MIDAS pre's being slightly preferred). I just wonder if one were to take an X32 console and an M32 console and tweak each to the most desirable sound, if you could still call out one over the other in a double blind test. I doubt it.
The M32 is worth the extra money for many people. A MIDAS console is more rider friendly, and the mechanical design is more robust as are the faders.
This is just smart marketing IMHO.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
I don't mean to burst anybody's bubble but successful brand management means optimizing several different aspects. In the case of higher and lower brands selling similar product the work is to increase the "perceived" value of the lower brand by association without diluting the perceived value of the higher brand. While not overtly deceptive, there is some sleight of hand involved in delivering subtly different messages to both customer groups. Less visible is the implicit goal to maximize total company revenue and profit. If the low brand is grossing 100x the volume of the high brand a little slippage of the high brand is tolerable when the books get balanced at the end of the year.
I have seen the juggling act involved and IMO Behringer is doing a decent job of extracting value from their portfolio of brands (and I don't enjoy handing out such compliments). Customers generally "want" to believe that more expensive SKUs are better so sometimes saying less and letting the customer's imagination assume the best works well.
Of course in brand management like anything else opinions vary.
JR
I don't mean to burst anybody's bubble but successful brand management means optimizing several different aspects. In the case of higher and lower brands selling similar product the work is to increase the "perceived" value of the lower brand by association without diluting the perceived value of the higher brand. While not overtly deceptive, there is some sleight of hand involved in delivering subtly different messages to both customer groups. Less visible is the implicit goal to maximize total company revenue and profit. If the low brand is grossing 100x the volume of the high brand a little slippage of the high brand is tolerable when the books get balanced at the end of the year.
I have seen the juggling act involved and IMO Behringer is doing a decent job of extracting value from their portfolio of brands (and I don't enjoy handing out such compliments). Customers generally "want" to believe that more expensive SKUs are better so sometimes saying less and letting the customer's imagination assume the best works well.
Of course in brand management like anything else opinions vary.
JR
Re: New Midas M32 Console
So there is no crossover products in the Harman Group or in the Bosh Group?
What about Fender, when is a Fender a Fender and when is it not?
What deception is the Midas/Behringer combination guilty of?
So there is no crossover products in the Harman Group or in the Bosh Group?
What about Fender, when is a Fender a Fender and when is it not?
What deception is the Midas/Behringer combination guilty of?
Re: New Midas M32 Console
Not saying Harman is better. But M32 has Pro Series Preamp? Just turn the Gain on Pro6 and then M32. tell me difference.
Not saying Harman is better. But M32 has Pro Series Preamp? Just turn the Gain on Pro6 and then M32. tell me difference.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
Dirk i dont understand you... what you want achieve? midas says that M32 has same preamp as Pro series. you dont believe... German professional magazin has measure and confirm that M32 is 10db better noise then X32 and much better data. why you dont compare both preamp schema and show evidence here if you believe it is not same...
Dirk i dont understand you... what you want achieve? midas says that M32 has same preamp as Pro series. you dont believe... German professional magazin has measure and confirm that M32 is 10db better noise then X32 and much better data. why you dont compare both preamp schema and show evidence here if you believe it is not same...
Re: New Midas M32 Console
It does have the same damned preamp and it's been proven. If you compare the current Pro series preamps to the M32 preamps, you'll get the same result. I can't speak on the A/D conversion but I'd wager it's not half bad. Not to mention, it's in the Midas brand catalog so it doesn't even matter that it's the higher range parts! Not to mention, Behringer has been rather straightforward about what parts are what, and you can take apart the gear and check for yourself if you want.
I'm really having a hard time working out exactly what you're saying here. It might be the language barrier, but it is not clear exactly what you are trying to communicate.
It does have the same damned preamp and it's been proven. If you compare the current Pro series preamps to the M32 preamps, you'll get the same result. I can't speak on the A/D conversion but I'd wager it's not half bad. Not to mention, it's in the Midas brand catalog so it doesn't even matter that it's the higher range parts! Not to mention, Behringer has been rather straightforward about what parts are what, and you can take apart the gear and check for yourself if you want.
I'm really having a hard time working out exactly what you're saying here. It might be the language barrier, but it is not clear exactly what you are trying to communicate.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
No its not proven. Its proven they different from X32. My Pro6 had 2.5db step and some local have 5db step. M32 has 1db step. Max db values are other too. But no matter
No its not proven. Its proven they different from X32. My Pro6 had 2.5db step and some local have 5db step. M32 has 1db step. Max db values are other too. But no matter
Re: New Midas M32 Console
Where do you get it from? Are you just making up some numbers that will support your claims? They all have 2.5dB steps, not that it proves anything at all.
Where do you get it from? Are you just making up some numbers that will support your claims? They all have 2.5dB steps, not that it proves anything at all.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
I think Dirk is upset that his 45k investment can be had for a tenth of that now....
Re: New Midas M32 Console
A Pro6 is in a different league altogether, even if the difference between what a 4K and a 40K console can do is a lot smaller now than it used to be.
Being upset because it nowadays might be harder for ignorant people to understand the difference between a 30K rig and a 300K rig, and being upset that sometimes a 30K rig might be what is right for the client, well that's just immature.
I think Dirk is upset that his 45k investment can be had for a tenth of that now....
A Pro6 is in a different league altogether, even if the difference between what a 4K and a 40K console can do is a lot smaller now than it used to be.
Being upset because it nowadays might be harder for ignorant people to understand the difference between a 30K rig and a 300K rig, and being upset that sometimes a 30K rig might be what is right for the client, well that's just immature.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
The moment consoles went digital, this was the inevitable conclusion. Just like cell phones used to cost a fortune, only worked in very limited areas, and required you to carry around a lead-acid battery pack to make them work, digital consoles are now on the electronic equipment evolutionary time scale. I think we can expect prices to continue to fall and features and sound quality to rise in this market.
The moment consoles went digital, this was the inevitable conclusion. Just like cell phones used to cost a fortune, only worked in very limited areas, and required you to carry around a lead-acid battery pack to make them work, digital consoles are now on the electronic equipment evolutionary time scale. I think we can expect prices to continue to fall and features and sound quality to rise in this market.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
The interesting (perhaps) evolution in this product category is software vs hardware content and cost. Ironically perhaps lower cost SKUs can afford more NRE (non-recurring engineering, like software) because they sell more units, so such costs are divided by a larger denominator. That said there is also a hardware component since high performance platforms can afford to and will use higher power (more MIPS not watts) processing. One confusing perhaps hardware aspect is the cost of A/D/A convertors. This technology is generally driven by consumer products because the professional conversion market is tiny in comparison to consumer. Designing a new high performance convertor IC is a major investment beyond the console business, so conversion differences are small or intentionally engineered into cheaper products to provide a merchantable differentiation (on paper).
While a digital console company only selling ten a year might need to charge hundreds of $k I don't know how they will find those ten customers. That said there are actual differences between value and premium products. Always was and always will be, but mainly features not performance (while some performance aspects are merchandised as features.)
JR
The interesting (perhaps) evolution in this product category is software vs hardware content and cost. Ironically perhaps lower cost SKUs can afford more NRE (non-recurring engineering, like software) because they sell more units, so such costs are divided by a larger denominator. That said there is also a hardware component since high performance platforms can afford to and will use higher power (more MIPS not watts) processing. One confusing perhaps hardware aspect is the cost of A/D/A convertors. This technology is generally driven by consumer products because the professional conversion market is tiny in comparison to consumer. Designing a new high performance convertor IC is a major investment beyond the console business, so conversion differences are small or intentionally engineered into cheaper products to provide a merchantable differentiation (on paper).
While a digital console company only selling ten a year might need to charge hundreds of $k I don't know how they will find those ten customers. That said there are actual differences between value and premium products. Always was and always will be, but mainly features not performance (while some performance aspects are merchandised as features.)
JR
Re: New Midas M32 Console
Just FYI, the analogue gain steps for the pro series depend on the stage box. DL3 and dl4 boxes all have 5db steps, and dl1 and 2 boxes all have 2.5db steps. I imagine that on the m32 and x32, they are still 2.5db steps but digitally trimmed to be 1db. It's the same with most digital boards.
Just FYI, the analogue gain steps for the pro series depend on the stage box. DL3 and dl4 boxes all have 5db steps, and dl1 and 2 boxes all have 2.5db steps. I imagine that on the m32 and x32, they are still 2.5db steps but digitally trimmed to be 1db. It's the same with most digital boards.
Re: New Midas M32 Console
We actually went the extra mile to design our own high-end AD converter. It's an 8-channel, 192 kHz silicon that will be branded Midas M8000. While it is a substantial investment indeed, we felt it was worth it as we are achieving better results than with the CS5368 from Cirrus.
To confirm once more, the M32 preamp is identical with the one found in the Midas Pro Series. It switches in 2.5 dB steps - the rest is digital trim. The output section is also identical and the German magazine Professional Partner measured a 10 dB better signal-to-noise ratio compared to the X32.
We actually went the extra mile to design our own high-end AD converter. It's an 8-channel, 192 kHz silicon that will be branded Midas M8000. While it is a substantial investment indeed, we felt it was worth it as we are achieving better results than with the CS5368 from Cirrus.
To confirm once more, the M32 preamp is identical with the one found in the Midas Pro Series. It switches in 2.5 dB steps - the rest is digital trim. The output section is also identical and the German magazine Professional Partner measured a 10 dB better signal-to-noise ratio compared to the X32.
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