X16 Preview

[Eric Eskam]

Re: X16 Preview

Your customer base and clients are probably very different from most of ours. Our clients don't have a hissy fit because we run snakes or that the featured entertainers expect an FOH console to be in the house. We don't do bar gigs for the most part (boss will briefcase a bar gig as a favor to old musician friends), we don't do weddings, we don't do a lot of stuff where the mere suggestion of technical gear makes a client apoplectic.

You've made it quite clear a number of times that you don't do "bargain basement" gigs... so I guess I'm confused as to why you continually hang out in threads for equipment that you will apparently never use because it doesn't meet your requirements and you can afford more expensive gear that can?

What's the point? If I could afford some of those higher end consoles would I much rather have them? Maybe. But the X32 and X16 serve particular market needs and I'm thankful companies like Behringer are filling them. I'm just not sure what you get from threadcrapping on them?

 

[Eric Eskam]

Re: X16 Preview

I like real knobs, buttons and faders. Others may feel differently but I have yet to find a 'virtual' pot that I can work with comfortably. And I like being able to find or keep my hand on a control by feel. To me a virtual work surface results in too much 'heads down' mixing.

I heartily agree with you. There is a car commercial (Cadillac?) that prattles on about moving cars into the "tablet age" as if it's some triumph and I just feel like yelling at the TV having to look down to locate some virtual control when I could feel for and adjust a physical control without having to take my eyes off the road is not an improvement! It's marketing BS. Then again, I would imagine the target audience for this thing isn't going to necessarily be sitting in front of it throughout the entire show - if your only making occasional adjustments, especially before the show, then I can see where lack of physical controls isn't probably as big an issue.

Maybe someone already has a tablet PC or a competing tablet product or simply doesn't like Apple, but where a tablet device is required to have a functional mixer then not having options for the tablet devices can be a factor in some cases.

OK - sure. But why wouldn't they just pick something else then? Why does this product have to change or be "Fatally flawed" just because it doesn't meet your needs? I'm not necessarily that enthused for it either, but I'm sure there are more than enough people for whom it will fit their needs and workflow in a positive way. Behringer must think so or they wouldn't be bringing it to market! And no matter what you think of them, they are a pretty successful company and have shown they know how to make money.

If something is necessary for a product to function then it should be part of the product or at least available as an option.

Says who? Why? Printers require a computer or something to feed them. Should all printers come bundled with a computer?

A mixer that requires an iPad and/or an external network to function at even a basic level should at least offer the option of a package that includes all of the requisite components.

What the heck is "requisite components"? Should they come bundled with microphones and speakers since those are required for the mixer to "work" too? Aren't we crossing into the absurd here?

There should be some way to purchase a functional 'mixer' from a single source that actually does all the things claimed and provides a single point of responsibility and support.

Well, luckily for you Behringer already has that covered - from the X32 to other models they offer. And in case you are having some temporary memory loss of some sort, there are manufacturers other than Behringer out there too. If it was the only mixer they were offering and if they were the only manufacturer in this price point than your consternation might be somewhat warranted - but seriously....

If you can't mix without some other device then it is not a mixer, it is an audio interface.

Sigh... I remember not to long ago when digital camera's weren't "real" camera's and you couldn't do professional photography with them. Yawn. I submit the issue isn't with the X16, but your narrow view of the universe. Times are changing. If you don't like the new models/methodologies/workflows then stick with the models or companies that provide what you are comfortable with. But just because you don't see any value in it doesn't mean it's valueless for everyone.

Situations where you own the mixer and are the primary or only operator can differ from situations where the mixer belongs to a group or venue and there is no assigned operator or multiple potential operators and I believe that is particularly releveant with iPad based mixers and especially where the iPad is used wirelessly. If you were a club and had a DL1608 would you really hand the related iPad to some hallucinating oddball BE that sticks their head in the urinal and flushes?

And given your scenario, why would they buy this model. Why does one situation where such a configuration not make sense translate into the product having no value for anyone? Ugh - are people really so easily threatened by choice? Since when is having *more* options a bad thing? It's not like Behringer is sending in their goons to smash up all their competitors gear, their other models and then forcing everyone to buy/use this specific product - but you would never know it from the way some people react to things that they don't see value in online.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: X16 Preview

You've made it quite clear a number of times that you don't do "bargain basement" gigs... so I guess I'm confused as to why you continually hang out in threads for equipment that you will apparently never use because it doesn't meet your requirements and you can afford more expensive gear that can?

What's the point? If I could afford some of those higher end consoles would I much rather have them? Maybe. But the X32 and X16 serve particular market needs and I'm thankful companies like Behringer are filling them. I'm just not sure what you get from threadcrapping on them?

Despite the apparent discrepancy between your markets, business is business and Tim has been in it for a long time. If you want to make "business decisions", you'll have a hard time finding anyone with more practical experience......and the willingness to share the benefits thereof.

If you've got another job/career/business to support your sound habit and the accompanying GAS, then good for you. If you want to make it pay for itself and give you a livelihood, don't discount what Tim says.

 

[Eric Eskam]

Re: X16 Preview

If you've got another job/career/business to support your sound habit and the accompanying GAS, then good for you.

I have no doubt that Tim has lots of experience. It's pretty apparent by his posts that he has a breadth and depth of experience. What is also equally obvious is he's at a level that is far above these products. And there's nothing wrong with that. But because they don't fit his, yours or anyone else's needs doesn't mean there isn't a market or a fit for them somewhere. Again, Behringer thinks so - as does Mackie and at least two other makers.

This space is changing. I'm somewhat amused because I went through the transition from film photography to digital photography. With film the bar was pretty high. Each picture had a cost. To be really creative you had to have a large number of narrow, specific skills in the darkroom that required specialized rooms, equipment, chemicals and skills. Photographers got comfortable.

Digital changed all that. You can now do things with <$1K of gear and a computer that the guys with film could never dream of. Heck, the camera on my iPhone is better than all but the last two digital camera's I have owned, and iPhone photos are ending up on the covers of magazines. To say that digital disrupted photography and that the "old guard" resented and despised the changes is an understatement! The same thing is happening in audio. People that just a few years ago would never had to have been able to afford equipment that provided functionality the X16 provides can now get to it. Is it perfect? Is it "pro" level? Nope. But then again it doesn't have to be. It's neither good nor bad, just different. It may not be to your, Tim's or other "old timers" tastes - and I don't mean to be cruel when I say this but let's just cut the crap and be perfectly blunt - who cares? If it works for people, just like with digital photography, people are going to utilize the new tools and capabilities available to them. And just like with digital photography and desktop publishing in the 80's (too many fonts anyone?) some people are going to do it better than others. Oh well. It's the nature of the beast. So you can either adjust to the emerging market reality or remain grumpy and curmudgeonly. Uli announced they have sold over 20,000 X32s. You and Tim could be 100% right - at the end of the day it's irrelevant. The market is shifting - at least part of it. Throwing cold water on it because you don't agree isn't productive. Some old saying about peeing in windstorms is coming into mind.....

If you want to make it pay for itself and give you a livelihood, don't discount what Tim says.

If you, Tim or anyone else want to see a good example of how to deal with market disruption, go listen to some photography podcasts and hear how, even today, traditional photographers have had to adapt and re-image themselves to match the changes in the market. Because like it or not, your market is changing. You can adapt, parlay that experience into a tangible asset and figure out how to market and leverage it, or let it go to waste. But just like with photography, it's pretty clear that the "status quo" in audio is going through a similar transformation. Complaining about the changes or criticizing manufacturers for meeting market demand isn't going to pay the bills any more than photographers who complained that "amateurs" are killing the wedding market worked for wedding photographers. Instead the smart wedding photographers learned how to be savvy business people and marketers in addition to their core photography skills enough to pull an Apple and skim the cream of the gigs while leaving the bulk of the low paying gigs to the "amateurs"; mainly by leveraging reputation and word of mouth. That's one way to deal with a changing market.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: X16 Preview

So Eric........what do you do for a living?

 

[mackerr]

Re: X16 Preview

I like real knobs, buttons and faders. Others may feel differently but I have yet to find a 'virtual' pot that I can work with comfortably. And I like being able to find or keep my hand on a control by feel. To me a virtual work surface results in too much 'heads down' mixing.

Maybe someone already has a tablet PC or a competing tablet product or simply doesn't like Apple, but where a tablet device is required to have a functional mixer then not having options for the tablet devices can be a factor in some cases.

If something is necessary for a product to function then it should be part of the product or at least available as an option. A mixer that requires an iPad and/or an external network to function at even a basic level should at least offer the option of a package that includes all of the requisite components. There should be some way to purchase a functional 'mixer' from a single source that actually does all the things claimed and provides a single point of responsibility and support. If you can't mix without some other device then it is not a mixer, it is an audio interface.

Situations where you own the mixer and are the primary or only operator can differ from situations where the mixer belongs to a group or venue and there is no assigned operator or multiple potential operators and I believe that is particularly releveant with iPad based mixers and especially where the iPad is used wirelessly. If you were a club and had a DL1608 would you really hand the related iPad to some hallucinating oddball BE that sticks their head in the urinal and flushes?

I totally agree about mixing on a tablet. I think the idea is silly. A wireless tablet to walk around the venue or stage during set up and optimization can be a valuable tool, but banking your show on a WiFi connection to an iPad, or any other tablet, is a train wreck looking for a place to happen. Relying on a tablet as the only interface to a console is also a less than ideal way to mix. I feel the same about mixing on a laptop. You cannot get the fine level of control with either that you get with a physical console type control surface.

I fail to see how having to own a particular tablet to run the console software is any different than having to own a particular computer to run array design software, or processor control software. For many years I lugged around a Toshiba laptop for the sole purpose of running Yamaha PM1D Manager, XTA Audiocore, and L'Acoustic array software. I owned that computer because I needed it to run software that I needed to do my job. The rest of my business, and all my personal computing was, and is on a Mac. With the advent of emulation software I now run XP on my Mac and no longer have to carry 2 computers everywhere, but I still use 2 platforms (plus IOS on my iPad). If the job requires you to use a particular device, use that device. Software that only runs on one platform is not unique to the iPad, nor did it just start 3 years ago.

Mac

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: X16 Preview

Says who? Why? Printers require a computer or something to feed them. Should all printers come bundled with a computer?

What the heck is "requisite components"? Should they come bundled with microphones and speakers since those are required for the mixer to "work" too? Aren't we crossing into the absurd here?

Using your comparison where a printer is usually viewed as an accessory or ancillary device for a computer, are you saying you would view a DL1608 or X16 as an 'add on' accessory or ancillary device for an iPad? I'd have no problem if they were presented that way, but the descriptions and marketing seem to be presenting the opposite.

Uli noted "The iPad/PC based digital mixer" and is it actually a "mixer" if you can't mix without also implementing other devices that you have to obtain from other parties? Is it really more a form of audio interface or do such products create a new category?

Well, luckily for you Behringer already has that covered - from the X32 to other models they offer. And in case you are having some temporary memory loss of some sort, there are manufacturers other than Behringer out there too. If it was the only mixer they were offering and if they were the only manufacturer in this price point than your consternation might be somewhat warranted - but seriously....

Just like the Mackie DL1608, I doubt the iPad will be an integral part of the X16 Uli showed way back in the initial post of this thread and this discussion is about the X16, it's right there in the title, so perhaps I'm not the one with memory loss.

I submit the issue isn't with the X16, but your narrow view of the universe. Times are changing. If you don't like the new models/methodologies/workflows then stick with the models or companies that provide what you are comfortable with. But just because you don't see any value in it doesn't mean it's valueless for everyone.

If you read the entire discussion I think you may find that there are many people that want the capabilities of something like the X16 but without the dependence on an iPad. People aren't saying "nobody wants this" or that it is useless or has no market, Uli came here to ask for input from the people here and a number seem to be saying "that's not what we want/need for our applications" and identifying why that is so. Maybe you need to heed your own advice and be open to there being situations other than your own.

And given your scenario, why would they buy this model. Why does one situation where such a configuration not make sense translate into the product having no value for anyone? Ugh - are people really so easily threatened by choice? Since when is having *more* options a bad thing? It's not like Behringer is sending in their goons to smash up all their competitors gear, their other models and then forcing everyone to buy/use this specific product - but you would never know it from the way some people react to things that they don't see value in online.

More options would be great and since I'm sure the DL1608 and X16 have a market, more options seems to be exactly what people are asking for. And that includes the option to be able to use tablet devices other than the iPad.

 

[Brad Weber]

Re: X16 Preview

I fail to see how having to own a particular tablet to run the console software is any different than having to own a particular computer to run array design software, or processor control software. For many years I lugged around a Toshiba laptop for the sole purpose of running Yamaha PM1D Manager, XTA Audiocore, and L'Acoustic array software. I owned that computer because I needed it to run software that I needed to do my job. The rest of my business, and all my personal computing was, and is on a Mac. With the advent of emulation software I now run XP on my Mac and no longer have to carry 2 computers everywhere, but I still use 2 platforms (plus IOS on my iPad). If the job requires you to use a particular device, use that device. Software that only runs on one platform is not unique to the iPad, nor did it just start 3 years ago.

You do not need the Yamaha PM1D Manager, XTA Audiocore or L'Acoustic array software running on a connected computing device in order for the associated audio devices to normally function. In the case of the DL1608 or the X16 shown the software and a compatible device to run it are required at all times in order for the the hardware to provide any functionality. To me that is a significant difference.

Since it is where I normally play, think of the difference in installs. Over the years I have designed and/or installed many systems for churches, theaters, music practice rooms, auditoria, etc. that included small 16 channel mixers. A digital version of those would be great, especially with the option of wireless mixing. However, with an iPad and app based mixer you can't verify operation, test, train or use the system without the actual iPad and app, so how does a party installing a system using such a mixer provide a "fully functional and tested system with warranty"? They could purchase an iPad but can they resell it and 'pass through' warrranty and support or would they have to be an Apple dealer? That's where a Behringer or Mackie dealer being able to purchase a package that they can sell and support as an authorized dealer would be beneficial.

 

[Eric Valenzuela]

Re: X16 Preview

You've made it quite clear a number of times that you don't do "bargain basement" gigs... so I guess I'm confused as to why you continually hang out in threads for equipment that you will apparently never use because it doesn't meet your requirements and you can afford more expensive gear that can?

What's the point? If I could afford some of those higher end consoles would I much rather have them? Maybe. But the X32 and X16 serve particular market needs and I'm thankful companies like Behringer are filling them. I'm just not sure what you get from threadcrapping on them?

Totally agree Eric, most of us here are actually Junior Varsity and fit this forum's description. Don't know any weekend warriors using the desks Tim uses.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X16 Preview

they DON't do the same thing though.. every single app that comes out is followed by people whining that there's no android version.
they may be capable hardware wise, but they literally can't do the same thing (yet).
SO, for the task at hand, the ipad is still a great value.
an ipad plus a wall-mount frame is still cheaper and better than a 10" crestron panel. (just as another example)

Jason

Some people want to use the Half-Eaten Fruit Pad, others prefer the Robot Pad. Why is there is push-back from the Apple crowd? IF the money makes sense, I don't really care which is used (although my personal preference is for Robots), but from the sharp-pencil department, having remote control via the Robot OS is the winner.

Most of you non-HoW folks will buy ONE pad of whatever OS, for us we'd be looking at at least 6. Sure, we've got a ton of $$ wrapped up in speakers and amps and big digital mixers, but every single expenditure has to be justified on its own merits. Right now the ipad doesn't do that.

When I wear the "manager hat" I have to convince the boss that I'm spending his money in ways that will pay back quickly and enhance our services in a way customers will pay more money for or that will save us substantially. Again, paying a premium for the apple logo doesn't do that. This is cold, hard business, not a fanboy decision. When you're buying for yourself you can purchase whatever you want, but when you have to make the accountant happy (along with customers) these decisions take on a slightly different dimension.

 

[Jason Lavoie]

Re: X16 Preview

Some people want to use the Half-Eaten Fruit Pad, others prefer the Robot Pad. Why is there is push-back from the Apple crowd? IF the money makes sense, I don't really care which is used (although my personal preference is for Robots), but from the sharp-pencil department, having remote control via the Robot OS is the winner.

Most of you non-HoW folks will buy ONE pad of whatever OS, for us we'd be looking at at least 6. Sure, we've got a ton of $$ wrapped up in speakers and amps and big digital mixers, but every single expenditure has to be justified on its own merits. Right now the ipad doesn't do that.

When I wear the "manager hat" I have to convince the boss that I'm spending his money in ways that will pay back quickly and enhance our services in a way customers will pay more money for or that will save us substantially. Again, paying a premium for the apple logo doesn't do that. This is cold, hard business, not a fanboy decision. When you're buying for yourself you can purchase whatever you want, but when you have to make the accountant happy (along with customers) these decisions take on a slightly different dimension.

first, I am NOT "the apple crowd".. I carry a blackberry and would prefer to be able to buy something other than an iPad, but when an iPad+whatever combo is the best why not accept it?

This is starting to sound a lot like the "why does everyone insist on using an SM58? don't they know there are better mics out there?" argument..


Jason

 

[mackerr]

Re: X16 Preview

Some people want to use the Half-Eaten Fruit Pad, others prefer the Robot Pad. Why is there is push-back from the Apple crowd? IF the money makes sense, I don't really care which is used (although my personal preference is for Robots), but from the sharp-pencil department, having remote control via the Robot OS is the winner.

Most of you non-HoW folks will buy ONE pad of whatever OS, for us we'd be looking at at least 6. Sure, we've got a ton of $$ wrapped up in speakers and amps and big digital mixers, but every single expenditure has to be justified on its own merits. Right now the ipad doesn't do that.

When I wear the "manager hat" I have to convince the boss that I'm spending his money in ways that will pay back quickly and enhance our services in a way customers will pay more money for or that will save us substantially. Again, paying a premium for the apple logo doesn't do that. This is cold, hard business, not a fanboy decision. When you're buying for yourself you can purchase whatever you want, but when you have to make the accountant happy (along with customers) these decisions take on a slightly different dimension.

Why do you prefer the Robot pad? Is there an app that you need that runs on it exclusively? If you have no app, there is no business case for buying any tablet. When you do have an app, you buy the system it runs on. The choice of platform decision should be totally based on utility and ROI. There is no "premium" for buying Apple, there is only a premium for buying top of the line on either platform, or buying bargain oriented hardware. For a professional tool, I would be buying top of the line no matter what I was buying. My 3 year old iPad v1 still does all I need it to.

Mac

 

[Paul Mirtschin]

Re: X16 Preview

In an attempt to get this back on topic, and away from the Apple/Android, Pro/Consumer pissing contest the thread has developed into...

it's already been done, but I couldn't find it .... but....
Add a button to that you can use all 16 faders for input channels if you wanted, or 2 x 8 on the left, and 8 groups on the right....

This is the mixer we are all hoping for. And I'm sure it, or something similar will be released at NAMM.

The mixer Uli showed, while not what most of us want, will still probably shift 5,000-10,000 units in 2013. And I might grab one to go with my X32 and the 16-chan X?? we are waiting on.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X16 Preview

This is the mixer we are all hoping for. And I'm sure it, or something similar will be released at NAMM.

That's the one, and of course it comes with no I/O except aux and aes and comes bundled with an S16 ~~:smile:

and because it will be so immensely popular, the existing X32 owners will be offered it first :twisted:

Uli, it's a no-brainer!!!!!

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: X16 Preview

That's the one, and of course it comes with no I/O except aux and aes and comes bundled with an S16 ~~:smile:

and because it will be so immensely popular, the existing X32 owners will be offered it first :twisted:

Uli, it's a no-brainer!!!!!

Why would you not want 16 local XLR i/O on it... Think weekend bar band, racking this thing up and rolling, in-ear rigs... etc. I could "give" my 01v96 away after this gets launched and carry this around, with my band memebers doing thier own mix on ipad. SOLD!

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X16 Preview

Why would you not want 16 local XLR i/O on it... Think weekend bar band, racking this thing up and rolling, in-ear rigs... etc. I could "give" my 01v96 away after this gets launched and carry this around, with my band memebers doing thier own mix on ipad. SOLD!

Simple, I want a free S16 to go with what I already own and a board that gives me maximum integration at the lowest possible price.
If I pay around 1500 for a bundle that contains the S16, I get a mixer for 700, a deal I can't pass up.
Besides, I believe that a mixer with a free Digisnake is a more attractive proposition than one that hasn't got it.
From a manufacturer's point of view, why not utilize a product already in your inventory instead of building the same functionality into a new product and thus tying up extra capital in that new product? There is also the packaging, getting rid of I/O allows for a thinner, lighter package.

 

[Shane Presley]

Re: X16 Preview

I believe that a mixer with a free Digisnake is a more attractive proposition than one that hasn't got it.
There is also the packaging, getting rid of I/O allows for a thinner, lighter package.

Except for those times you would be using it in the methods that I posted. A weekend band doesn't want a "free digital snake". they are plugging thier inputs in , on stage, into the mixer....
I agree it would be cool to have the option to have an X16,(to add to your exisiting system) and an X16io (with inputs/outputs) for new customers who only plan to own this one piece.

How can this package "be lighter" when you need to tote the s16 to make it work (which puts the weight factor right back in)... carrying one piece (with i/o) , carrying two pieces...? ? ?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X16 Preview

Except for those times you would be using it in the methods that I posted. A weekend band doesn't want a "free digital snake". they are plugging thier inputs in , on stage, into the mixer....
I agree it would be cool to have the option to have an X16,(to add to your exisiting system) and an X16io (with inputs/outputs) for new customers who only plan to own this one piece.?

Imagine I'm a salesperson (I would starve) and someone comes into the shop asking for a simple, digital 16 ch. mixer to use onstage. I tell him you could have this one, and he nods, and then I tell him he could have the one with the digisnake for the same price, and place the S16 conveniantly in a central place on stage and just run a single cord over to the keyboardplayer that will do the mixing on the far right, without having to run long cables all over the stage. He nods and say that he doesn't really need that, better to have it all in one package. So I ask him if they ever use a soundman? "Yes, sometimes we might." is the answer. "Well, in those cases you just run a single cable to the mixing position, no extra hassle at all" I say and he smiles and say maybe. And of course, if you need extra channels in the future I say, you can buy an X32 and keep that stagebox and add another one without having to waste any of the gear you buy today. He smiles, broader this time. "And it is the same price? And the mixer itself is lighter but exactly the same in any other respect?" "Yes" I say and proceed to the back of the shop where the stacks of X16s and S16s is getting visibly smaller each day 8)~~

How can this package "be lighter" when you need to tote the s16 to make it work (which puts the weight factor right back in)... carrying one piece (with i/o) , carrying two pieces...? ? ?

The package that goes out front or wherever the mixing position is will be lighter and thinner. But then, if you insist on one heavier package, you can just use the (included?) Thingiemacwiggie kit to mount the S16 under the X16 ~;-)~:wink:

 

[Nick Davis]

Re: X16 Preview

How about Aes50 card or interface box for a windows 8 touchscreen - with SW emulating the X16/x32/x48 - to which multiple S16s could be linked - (could also get Behringer into the DAW game - who should they buy?! ) -!!?

Nick

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: X16 Preview

I borrowed a DL1608 twice for two simple gigs. The sound company I was working for on these shows now sees the advantage of this type of set up. But the DL1608 doesn’t have sub groups and I really want that. So I am telling him that if he can wait and the X16 is basically half of an X32 and if it is in the same price range that the X16 might be a better choice. This is also assuming that the XiControl for the iPad is fully functional by that time. I was playing with the app off line and it looks like I can’t control things like the channel EQ and dynamics. Is this only in the offline mode or is it not enabled yet in the online mode also. Or am I just missing how to do it?

Does anyone know when the X16 (however it comes out looking like) will be shipped?

Will I be able to interface a Behringer BCF2000 to it if I want to?