X32 Discussion

Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Per Søvik said:
I probably shouldn't say this, but why on earth would anyone in their right mind not buy the X32Rack?

I don't regret buying the X32, far from it, and I'm sure it will be used whenever there is a biggish production, a good location for FOH and laying cables is not a problem, but the Rack is the real game changer.

My plan was to put it in my stage rack, but I'm definitely thinking seriously about buying a Gator Rack Bag for those times when I don't need my stagerack, and thus having it handy all the time, like when I just carry a couple of active speakers, a microphone case and a tripod bag.

Actually, it is more than a Game Changer, it is a almost a Life Changer :D~:-D~:grin:
Click to expand...

Well my answer is
Why on earth didn't they put in AES/EBU out on all boxes ?
> did they try to change the game during the game ?
No offense intended..

Best

Klaus
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Hello

Per - to put it in a rack of it´s own is like my idea - the stagebox can be in separate case and so easy to move on other side/location on stage, when needed. I have been thinking to put it in a hard rack with UPS and computer. So you are planning to carry computer separately, or PERhaps not at all - trusting your wifi will stay on all times ( mine has - so far...) But what about UPS - I have this quality 1U unit, that unfortunately wheighs more than X32R - so have you found a really small UPS, that is light and small and can suspend the X32R for two seconds - after that the show will stop anyways....

The idea of bag is far more appealing than a hard rack - I am not renting this puppy.

EDIT - reading my post gives me a very tempting idea, even if it would void the warranty - how about replacing/rebuilding/beefing-up the internal PSU to tolerate short - up to 5s - powercuts ??? Thus 3U Rackbag :lol:

Nuuska
 
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Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Klaus Roethlisberger said:
Well my answer is
Why on earth didn't they put in AES/EBU out on all boxes ?
Click to expand...

Do we know that they didn't? (Although it appears doubtful, I wouldn't make that assumption.)

The DCX2496 uses the Input A XLR for either analog or AES/EBU. Something similar could have been done with the X32 Rack's output XLR's.

If it really is missing AES/EBU, that’s unfortunate, as it wouldn’t connect to the DCX2496 digitally. Unless they’re planning on making changes to their processing product.

Eric H.
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Timo Ulkuniemi said:
EDIT - reading my post gives me a very tempting idea, even if it would void the warranty - how about rplacing/rebuilding/beefing-up the internal PSU to tolerate short - up to 5s - powercuts ??? Thus 3U Rackbag :lol:
Click to expand...

I'm not fluent in PSU, but would it be possible to charge a reasonably big capacitor through a current limiting resistor parallel to a diode to avoid the voltage drop on discharge? If so what would it cost Behringer to implement that?
I asked a related question about the X32, but never got an answer, but it seems to me that a couple of seconds worth of caps and a couple of other passive parts could make a big difference for relatively little money.

I haven't looked lately for a very small ups, and if everything else fails, I guess it isn't too hard to rip a smallish one apart and cut it down to size with fewer outlets and a smaller battery.
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Per Søvik said:
I'm not fluent in PSU, but would it be possible to charge a reasonably big capacitor through a current limiting resistor parallel to a diode to avoid the voltage drop on discharge? If so what would it cost Behringer to implement that?
I asked a related question about the X32, but never got an answer, but it seems to me that a couple of seconds worth of caps and a couple of other passive parts could make a big difference for relatively little money.

I haven't looked lately for a very small ups, and if everything else fails, I guess it isn't too hard to rip a smallish one apart and cut it down to size with fewer outlets and a smaller battery.
Click to expand...

Hello

Problem with ripping an UPS down and replacing battery with something smaller still leaves the bulky and heavy output transformer of UPS - so it would need more redesigning than just chassis and battery - therefore the idea of getting into the source of the problem, not the cure !!!

Surely people at Behringer would know how to build a "better" PSU for entire X32-family - perhaps they have too many designers, that take UPS for granted and never had to carry those around themselves... Uli plays piano - and when he was young he had to carry his own stuff to gig - now that he has become "a big shot" I sincerely hope, that he remembers the time, when piano was not waiting for him to come - actually I DO BELIEVE HE DOES - and now he has to tell those engineers to beef up PSU:s, because Nuuska in Finland , Per in Norway and tens of thousands happy X32 users around the globe would be a bit more happy , when schlepping that now remarkably lighter load.

While waiting for solution fron Behringer I could take my old Soundcraft Spirit 328 and experiment - nobody is going to buy it from me anyhow anymore .... Maybe simply put a bit more capacitance after PSU output and see if PSU can take it ...
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Eric Hill - USA said:
Do we know that they didn't? (Although it appears doubtful, I wouldn't make that assumption.)

The DCX2496 uses the Input A XLR for either analog or AES/EBU. Something similar could have been done with the X32 Rack's output XLR's.

If it really is missing AES/EBU, that’s unfortunate, as it wouldn’t connect to the DCX2496 digitally. Unless they’re planning on making changes to their processing product.

Eric H.
Click to expand...


Someone from Behringer confirmed it, only x32 and x32 compact have AES/EBU

Best regards

Klaus
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Timo Ulkuniemi said:
Surely people at Behringer would know how to build a "better" PSU for entire X32-family - perhaps they have too many designers, that take UPS for granted and never had to carry those around themselves...
Click to expand...

It's all about costs, adding bulky capacitors does cost quite a lot.

If the psu is just a very simple switching design without power factor correction, one could maybe also rectify mains outside the X32, add bulky capacitors and feed this to the mains socket... But without a schematic, it's all guessing.
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Timo Ulkuniemi said:
Hello

Problem with ripping an UPS down and replacing battery with something smaller still leaves the bulky and heavy output transformer of UPS - so it would need more redesigning than just chassis and battery - therefore the idea of getting into the source of the problem, not the cure !!!

Surely people at Behringer would know how to build a "better" PSU for entire X32-family - perhaps they have too many designers, that take UPS for granted and never had to carry those around themselves... Uli plays piano - and when he was young he had to carry his own stuff to gig - now that he has become "a big shot" I sincerely hope, that he remembers the time, when piano was not waiting for him to come - actually I DO BELIEVE HE DOES - and now he has to tell those engineers to beef up PSU:s, because Nuuska in Finland , Per in Norway and tens of thousands happy X32 users around the globe would be a bit more happy , when schlepping that now remarkably lighter load.

While waiting for solution fron Behringer I could take my old Soundcraft Spirit 328 and experiment - nobody is going to buy it from me anyhow anymore .... Maybe simply put a bit more capacitance after PSU output and see if PSU can take it ...
Click to expand...
My theory would be to create a ups that works on the output side of the psu, yes this would likely require the creation of a few different voltages and negative supplies, although, I bet there are switching regulators that could do the job.

All that would then be needed is a small (say 2ah) SLA and charging circuit and this could be fitted inside the console.
Naturally, if we knew what voltages the x32 uses internally that would be a great help.
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Daniel Levi said:
My theory would be to create a ups that works on the output side of the psu, yes this would likely require the creation of a few different voltages and negative supplies, although, I bet there are switching regulators that could do the job.

All that would then be needed is a small (say 2ah) SLA and charging circuit and this could be fitted inside the console.
Naturally, if we knew what voltages the x32 uses internally that would be a great help.
Click to expand...
Adding a big capacitor right after the high voltage rectifier should do the trick. There should already be one or a few capacitors in thatposition.

There are too many output voltages to make the installation nice and clean on the output side...
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Antoon van den Oetelaar said:
Not if there's an active power factor correction circuit in place. But maybe they do it the cheap easy way.
Click to expand...
Here is a reference design using pfc. As you can see there is a rectifier with a following capacitor. Adding some extra capacitance here should help with brown-outs.

The psu in the x32 is probably not rocket science either so it can probably run on dc-power as well. This means that you can build a box containing some rectifier + some cans of capacitors to power the mixer.

HOWEVER. BOTH APPROACHES ARE HAZARDOUS AND CAN CAUSE LETHAL INJURIES TO PERSONS IF AN ERROR CONDITION SHOULD OCCUR!

 

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Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

The bulk capacitor (the big HV one) is responsible for managing "holdup time". It is chosen to keep the supply running during xx milliseconds of power failure. They are very expensive so the designer often uses the minimum value.
A larger capacitor will hold up the supply longer, but is a much larger value and thus increases surge current which might blow the Mains Fuse.

More here: http://powerelectronics.com/site-fi...archive/powerelectronics.com/mag/410pet21.pdf

It is doubtful that the X32 uses PFC due to its low power consumption.
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

I guess that there are good reasons for not providing supplies with the amount of capacitance that it would require to keep a digital circuit stable.
Something I am slightly surprised that we don't see more often is equipment with a battery like what you find in so many low cost consumer items today. Laptops, portable dvd-players etc. have "integrated ups", so why don't we see it in "mission critical" equipment of various kinds.
If you had asked me ten years ago, I would have sworn that the average PC by now would have at least a "safe hibernation" capability.

Then again, we get by fine without it, so maybe carrying a small ups is the price we have to pay for our paranoia 8)~8-)~:cool:
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Per Søvik said:
I'm not fluent in PSU, but would it be possible to charge a reasonably big capacitor through a current limiting resistor parallel to a diode to avoid the voltage drop on discharge? If so what would it cost Behringer to implement that?
I asked a related question about the X32, but never got an answer, but it seems to me that a couple of seconds worth of caps and a couple of other passive parts could make a big difference for relatively little money.

I haven't looked lately for a very small ups, and if everything else fails, I guess it isn't too hard to rip a smallish one apart and cut it down to size with fewer outlets and a smaller battery.
Click to expand...

It seems I posted this a long time ago (in a different thread) but once more for the cheap seats, with microprocessor controlled system, it is possible to add a back up battery just for the central brain to keep it alive and running during brief power outages, so even if the displays go dark and non-essential workers are sent home, the brain can be kept on life support for extra seconds, extra minutes. One might even add a rear panel connector for a larger battery pack but I worry about unintended consequences of breaking out that node, where consumers can touch it.

For any who haven't noticed the X32 is a deep value design so not much fat left for such fancy features.

JR
 
Re: X32 Rack as a Soundcard interface....for an ekit....

I wanted to throw a hypothetical set-up past you guys...
I'm in the middle of investigating the use of addictive drums or superior drummer for live use. I downloaded the trial software of addictive and the sounds and feel are great in comparison to my roland TD-12 kit. So what I need to do now is find a dedicated computer, an external soundcard, usb / firewire interface with low latentcy and at least four outputs to interface with my E-kit.
Now here comes the question...
Could I open reaper, use superior drummer or addictive drums in reaper, and connect it via USB to the X32 rack recording card thus routing the outputs to channels?
I guess it's no different than using it as a reverb or delay or comp plug in no?

Just trying to wrap my head around the whole thing, and I don't want to have to spend an arm and a leg on a mac and some firewire interface to get low latentcy. My experiments to date have run from not usable latentcy to "ok"... more experiments tonight...
 
Re: X32 Rack has arrived - setting up

Robert Lofgren said:
Hmm, I cant see how it would ruin the pfc, but you may correct in your statement...

Can you provide me with some link or similar info on why the filter capacitor will skew the pfc?
Click to expand...

No, but the goal is that you have a more or less sinus current flow into the mains. If you put a large capacitor after the rectifier it will have peak currents when the sinus is at top, droping to allmost zero when it lowers, so a real bad power factor.

Even small devices like led lamps do have (some) PFC build in. But they can be used in very large quantities so it will count at the end.
I don't believe that digital mixers are excepted and don't need some sort of PFC, but it can differ between UL (US) and VDE / CE (europe) a lot.
 
Re: X32 Rack as a Soundcard interface....for an ekit....

Shane Presley said:
.....................
Could I open reaper, use superior drummer or addictive drums in reaper, and connect it via USB to the X32 rack recording card thus routing the outputs to channels?
I guess it's no different than using it as a reverb or delay or comp plug in no?

Just trying to wrap my head around the whole thing, and I don't want to have to spend an arm and a leg on a mac and some firewire interface to get low latentcy. My experiments to date have run from not usable latentcy to "ok"... more experiments tonight...
Click to expand...

It will definitely work, but from my experience with trying to run effects trough USB, the latency even going in one direction only (plus the latency of your Midi-interface and the processing in Reaper) will be much too high for anything but a fairly delayed mains. I doubt if you will be able to get it much below 30mS, so forget about putting it into the monitors.

A very quick look at these softwares leaves me slightly puzzled as to whether they are free-standing synths or not. I realize they have the VST interface with daws and sequencers, but do they require a VST-host to run? Most softsynths I've come across have fairly good latency when free-standing and interfacing directly with Midi and soundout, so going the direct route if possible will be beneficial.
 
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