X32 Discussion

Re: NAMM

Arik Semagin said:
What do you mean referring to "16-channel X32"?
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For a long while, they had a proposal for a 16 channel desk that had solely an iPad for its control surface, similar to the Mackie one. Then it disappeared. Maybe it will come back in a new form, although I guess for our purposes the Rack is the same thing and has the familiar layout and features for us X32'ers.

Arik Semagin said:
Also, I was asking about the hypothetical "X48" desk number of times. Seems like it's doable, there's definitely a gap between X32 and the smallest Midas Pro 1, so it's up to Uli who will fill it, Midas or Behringer brand. From business standpoint a smaller Midas desk makes more sense, it can have higher price tag than beefed-up X32 (Midas Pro 1 is actually already smaller and simplier desk than X32, probably costs less to produce and can be bumped to 48 channels from current 40, it's all about software, all small Midas Pro desks share the same central computer).
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Yes, except by that logic the X32 should have been a Midas brand at a higher price point than Behringer, which I don't think would have made it the game-changer that it is.

I'd be happy if the 48 channel game were changed, too.
 
Re: NAMM

Robert Lofgren said:
While all the x32‘s share the same processor it isn't a pc motherboard like the midas. It is rather a dsp-based mcu.

Doesn't the midas run embedded windows and not linux?

I've never seen any official statement that the x32 runs on linux so I don't know where that comes from...
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X32 is an arm based Linux (well I would expect so) system with separate DSP for the mixing/effects. The Midas boards all run Linux but on small PC motherboards with CF for storage again with DSP for all mixing/effects.
Soundcraft Vi, Innovason, and Digidesign/AVID all run on xp embedded.

The KT9696, however, is actually a custom rack mount PC running audio optimised windows XP with various extra cards for firewire/AES50
 
Re: NAMM

Daniel Levi said:
X32 is an arm based Linux (well I would expect so) system with separate DSP for the mixing/effects. The Midas boards all run Linux but on small PC motherboards with CF for storage again with DSP for all mixing/effects.
Soundcraft Vi, Innovason, and Digidesign/AVID all run on xp embedded.

The KT9696, however, is actually a custom rack mount PC running audio optimised windows XP with various extra cards for firewire/AES50
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Based on the Midas Manual for Pro1 it is indeed based on Linux with the GPL as one of the first Licenses. The same would have held true with the X32 and it's not. My guess is that it's based on uCosII or III from Micrium. Behringer goes back with AD for many other products based on the Sharc DSP (DEQ2496 Sharc single channel etc.). Someone here posted the DSP being used but I would expect a ARM as well such as the Blackfin. Even Mackie had to include the GPL for a very small set of code in the DL series. The rest I'm not familiar with and with XPe or follow on versions that would all be ND.
 
Re: NAMM

Robert Lofgren said:
While all the x32‘s share the same processor it isn't a pc motherboard like the midas. It is rather a dsp-based mcu?

Doesn't the midas run embedded windows and not linux?

I've never seen any official statement that the x32 runs on linux so I don't know where that comes from...
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I just went through MIDAS training in Vegas (MCDU course), saw and heard it firsthand. Yes, all MIDAS Pro line runs on Linux (which is UNIX-based, like Apple OS X). Yes, they have a standard PC motherboard with 4GB flash drive, one in Pro 1, 2, 2c and two in Pro 3, 6 and 9. Linux is multi-kernel OS, considered to be more stable than Windows.

Since X32 was designed mostly by MIDAS brains, Linux would be their obvious choice. Though bunch of pro desks run on Windows Embedded just fine, SD7, Venue, Soundcraft/Studer, to name a few.

Would probably open my X32 tonight to see how the CPU board looks like. Will post pics later.
 
Re: NAMM

Arik Semagin said:
I just went through MIDAS training in Vegas (MCDU course), saw and heard it firsthand. Yes, all MIDAS Pro line runs on Linux (which is UNIX-based, like Apple OS X). Yes, they have a standard PC motherboard with 4GB flash drive, one in Pro 1, 2, 2c and two in Pro 3, 6 and 9. Linux is multi-kernel OS, considered to be more stable than Windows.

Since X32 was designed mostly by MIDAS brains, Linux would be their obvious choice. Though bunch of pro desks run on Windows Embedded just fine, SD7, Venue, Soundcraft/Studer, to name a few.

Would probably open my X32 tonight to see how the CPU board looks like. Will post pics later.
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It sure is odd. The Midas guys that came through to demo Pro2 when the X32 was fresh were saying the X32 was windows, based. They distanced themselves from it in a way. They said only the preamps and AES50 was Midas. Everything else was pretty much done by the time they got involved. Midas just fixed somethings. Now lots of reviews are saying that it is a Midas console from the design up. I give up. I just point to them on the floor and demo them when asked. If it is what someone can afford and will suit their needs, then out the door it goes.
 
Re: NAMM

Brent Handy said:
It sure is odd. The Midas guys that came through to demo Pro2 when the X32 was fresh were saying the X32 was windows, based. They distanced themselves from it in a way. They said only the preamps and AES50 was Midas. Everything else was pretty much done by the time they got involved. Midas just fixed somethings. Now lots of reviews are saying that it is a Midas console from the design up. I give up. I just point to them on the floor and demo them when asked. If it is what someone can afford and will suit their needs, then out the door it goes.
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Agree. X32 does the job just fine, is well worth its price and fills the market segment nicely. And it doesn't really mater what is behind the surface, Windows, Linux or whatever, as long as it doesn't crash too often and has easy-to-use GUI. It starts to sound like an endless PC vs. Mac debates (or more recent iOS vs. Android).

Uli Behringer is certainly a genius in marketing, to offer X32 as product family for waaay less than competitors (in sub-$10K US category). Though simple-to-use quasi-digital boards like Presonus SL will have its niche, X32 beats them all in features set. I was considering Pro 1 upgrading from SL 24.4.2, glad that I went with X32.

What I would really like to see is Behringer's functional equivalent of AVID's new S3L modular system. He has two components already, X32 Core and S16 stage racks. What's missing is a control surface similar to S3 (but better designed, I hate the S3 all-black styling and rubber feel). But overall S3L is a killer system, just imagine having 64-channel setup that you can carry with you on a plane as a checked baggage! If Behringer can make something like this under $8K US, it will seriously cut into AVID's slice of market. S3L with just one stagebox (16 in) goes for sweet $18K in US!

A version of X32 Compact with less onboard I/O, say 8 out/ 16 in (for patching outboard effects, most are mono in/stereo out), some digital IO (for Driverack-4800 type processors) and hopefully support for a third S16 stagebox (I wish!) would be a nice thing to have. On my X32 (full) I rarely use onboard preamps, everything goes from stage or via card. Call it "X32 Control"?
 
Re: NAMM

Dan Mortensen said:
Yes, except by that logic the X32 should have been a Midas brand at a higher price point than Behringer, which I don't think would have made it the game-changer that it is.

I'd be happy if the 48 channel game were changed, too.
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X32 was certainly a smart move for Behringer: to pack MIDAS power into affordable package without jeopardizing MIDAS market position and sales numbers. X32 is a game-changer, kind of Mackie-1604 was in the 90s, another MIDAS desk even cheaper than Pro 1 would not. Uli certainly can (and probably will) make another MIDAS desk positioned below Pro 1, but it wouldn't sell in record numbers as X32: just a different target market.

But having third S16 and third channel layer on surface (33-48) would be nice. "X32 Ultra"?
 
Re: NAMM

Arik Semagin said:
Would probably open my X32 tonight to see how the CPU board looks like. Will post pics later.
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There are already pictures of the x32 internals out there. The dsp card is stacked under two input cards so you need to remove quite a lot of screws, due to the xlrs's, to get to the dsp card.

On the x32-rack the dsp-card is more or less covered with a solid metal cage, probably to protect the input cards from interference.

The dsp being used is the Sharc AD21371.
 

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Re: NAMM

William Kueppers said:
Based on the Midas Manual for Pro1 it is indeed based on Linux with the GPL as one of the first Licenses. The same would have held true with the X32 and it's not. My guess is that it's based on uCosII or III from Micrium. Behringer goes back with AD for many other products based on the Sharc DSP (DEQ2496 Sharc single channel etc.). Someone here posted the DSP being used but I would expect a ARM as well such as the Blackfin. Even Mackie had to include the GPL for a very small set of code in the DL series. The rest I'm not familiar with and with XPe or follow on versions that would all be ND.
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Presonus officially states that their new studiolive-ai runs on linux. However this is not printed in their documents as far as I have seen. They are not even refering to the GPL as far as I've been able to tell either. There are no links to the required toolchain and source code and libs.

I asked on their forum but there was never any reply... As far as I can tell they are in breach of the GPL.

Btw, since the sharc is a SoC it actually contains an Arm as well ;-)
 
Re: NAMM

Robert Lofgren said:
There are already pictures of the x32 internals out there. The dsp card is stacked under two input cards so you need to remove quite a lot of screws, due to the xlrs's, to get to the dsp card.

On the x32-rack the dsp-card is more or less covered with a solid metal cage, probably to protect the input cards from interference.

The dsp being used is the Sharc AD21371.
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Interesting. I was hoping to see something like MIDAS Pro 2, PC motherboard with unused graphic display port that can be used for external monitor.
 
Re: NAMM

Robert Lofgren said:
Presonus officially states that their new studiolive-ai runs on linux. However this is not printed in their documents as far as I have seen. They are not even refering to the GPL as far as I've been able to tell either. There are no links to the required toolchain and source code and libs.

I asked on their forum but there was never any reply... As far as I can tell they are in breach of the GPL.

Btw, since the sharc is a SoC it actually contains an Arm as well ;-)
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That would be unfortunate for Presonus since it cost them very little to provide this and like Midas can charge for it. I found no license info in their manual but apparently lot's of statements by their personnel regarding an ARM linux core. Taking a Hit and Making It a Bigger Hit | SPLnetwork.com A recent article with the history. Somebody needs to wake them up about the GPL otherwise this could cost them way more.
 
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Re: NAMM

Robert Lofgren said:
Here is some more porn picture of the rack.
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Wow - it comes even with a free screw driver:-)

BTW: We had this topic before.
The Midas Pro and the X32 both usesing Linux. Midas uses a standard computer mainboard and swappable psu's. The X32 comes with kind of industrial motherboard (don't know the right english term for it). The X32 is not designed by Midas. Midas/KlarkTeknik provided the MicPre Design and the AES50 stuff - that's all.
Windows embedded is used by Digico and partly in the Soundcraft Vi for example.

BTW2: Only two days left, until V.2 is on show:-)
Christian
 
Re: NAMM

Christian Boche said:
The X32 is not designed by Midas. Midas/KlarkTeknik provided the MicPre Design and the AES50 stuff - that's all.
Windows embedded is used by Digico and partly in the Soundcraft Vi for example.

BTW2: Only two days left, until V.2 is on show:-)
Christian
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I've heard at MIDAS training in Vegas last December that Uli took some MIDAS designers to work on X32, so there was MIDAS involvement, direct or indirect. At what extent -- it doesn't really matter: X32 works fine, and functionally is a lot closer to MIDAS than other digital desks. And all this for the price that sounds like a joke compare to other brands' offerings!

You can take Volkswagen as example that owns bunch of auto brands, from Bentley to cheap Skoda and SEAT. They share a lot of R&D but keep their brands distinct for their target markets. They don't put "Designed by Audi" on Skoda Octavia because Skodas essentially are copies of Audi/VW lineup, with less options and at lower prices.
 
Re: NAMM

finally someone gets it - this isn't 4 companies it's one group with 4 brands and one vision. you only have to look at the behri, turbosound and midas websites this week to establish that they share marketing - and the guys wandering around the lab in manchester and service centre in kidderminster may have one company name on their pay cheque but they are working along side the guys from the other brands. hence why they are sharing the same trade show space and live events. Once you get a grip of that (and audi/skoda/vw is a good metaphor) it becomes clear that we shouldn't really be caring whose name is on the box - just whether that particular piece of kit does what we need it to at that particular price point.
every man and his dog have mixing consoles in the 16 channel /£1,700 and 32 channel /£2,300 categories and you can bet that those that don't are working on it right now - they have to. Behringer/Music Group's great accomplishment was not really technical but business strategy - seeing what the market place would be like 4 years out, getting there early, doing it so well they eclipsed the competition and having one vision that benefited all 4 brands.
so now we get to a position where in 2 days time we have:
- a whole range of x32 products, all being updated with v2 (said to have significant additions)
- an x16 redesigned and presumably ready to compete with the mackie kit
- an ELX array, designed and badged by turbosound with the development costs underwritten by music group
- a new midas console/range of consoles
- all of them working together at the NAMM live events (that has to be be too good a marketing opportunity for music group to let pass)
4 brands, one group, one vision.
 
Re: NAMM

Mike Gibson said:
Be good if they first delivered products announced at the previous NAMM, like the powered speakers with CAT5 connectivity to the X32/S16
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They should go wireless as well. There's bunch of aftermarket wireless add-ons for powered speakers, ALTO speakers with built-in wireless. It's a surprise that Uli hasn't explored this yet. For now I have to use cheap Chinese FM transmitters and receivers (about $30 each, off eBay), plain FM radios, with my QSC mains. Required some soldering but works!
 
Re: NAMM

Howard Tomlinson said:
... Behringer/Music Group's great accomplishment was not really technical but business strategy - seeing what the market place would be like 4 years out, getting there early, doing it so well they eclipsed the competition and having one vision that benefited all 4 brands.

4 brands, one group, one vision.
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+1 on that. Uli Behringer is a lot like our late boss, Apple's CEO Steve Jobs (my day job is at Apple, Inc.). VISION is the key word. Jobs also turned Apple around, from just another computer maker near bankruptcy to the most successful company in the world by creating the products for the market that didn't even exist then: iPod, iTunes, then iPhone and iPad. And even though Steve Jobs is widely credited as computer and engineering genius, in reality he was neither a programmer or electronic engineer or industrial designer. He had VISION and that's what made the difference (and his relentless drive, of course). I would LOVE to see Behringer and Music Group become an Apple of music industry.
 
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