X32 Discussion

[Christian Boche]

Re: NAMM

T -25 hours till V2
Maybe the soundnetforum should prepare for this? Maybe a dedicated "V2-Discussion"?
BTW: Is anyone going to the NAMM show?
It would be nice to gather some first hand information about what's up with the X32 familiy.

I count on you X-Heads 8)~~
Christian

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: NAMM

T -25 hours till V2
Maybe the soundnetforum should prepare for this? Maybe a dedicated "V2-Discussion"?
BTW: Is anyone going to the NAMM show?
It would be nice to gather some first hand information about what's up with the X32 familiy.

I count on you X-Heads 8)~~
Christian

I will be at InfoComm. By then they will have it shipping and all of the bugs worked out.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: NAMM

Motorola is moving their factories back to the USA, and prices haven't skyrocketed in response (in fact, the Moto X is probably the best value phone they've released in ages). There's no law of the universe that says you can't have a factory in the USA and have low-cost products. -- There's no law, but a fact: You can't keep production costs down with unionized US labor and higher cost of everything here, especially in sunny California. Political statements have little to do with numbers.

Not to mention, your cavalier dismissal of American workers demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of the situation. The most significant issue with Chinese manufacturing isn't quality. It's the labor force. In most cases, it's barely a step above slave labor. Long work days, disgustingly low pay, blatant disregard for basic human rights, and skyrocketing suicide rates. -- You apply US and Western standards to other countries' culture. People there used to working long hours and when some US manufacturers like Wal-Mart tried to cut their work time, workers themselves complained because they were losing money. It's a known fact too, google it.

If nothing else, we shouldn't be accepting of this sort of treatment of fellow human beings. But of course, they're in China, far far away from us, so it's easy to just pretend this isn't happening.

You want good value. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't act like Chinese labor is somehow the answer.

It's not JUST labor. At most of these contract or manufacturer-owned factories in China workers get paid way more than average rates in the area, and these are high-demand jobs there. Manufacturers win because they don't have to deal with US or European trade unions' idiocies. Try to set up a factory in Silicon Valley: taxes and fixed costs alone will kill you, high cost of unionized labor will do the rest. Steve Jobs tried to produce his NeXT computers in California (during his time out of Apple), he failed big time: NeXT was priced way above of what an average customer can afford. He learned the lesson and since iMac all Apple stuff is made in China. Would you pay $4000 for an iPad or rather have it for less than a grand?

But this becomes too much of political discussion where everyone sticks to their opinion and it can be endless. Let's keep it down to X32, Behringer and digital desks in general. I totally admire Uli Behringer, no matter what people say he has the VISION and the results speak for themselves. X32 wins all over the world, beating many established players.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: NAMM

T -25 hours till V2
Maybe the soundnetforum should prepare for this? Maybe a dedicated "V2-Discussion"?
BTW: Is anyone going to the NAMM show?
It would be nice to gather some first hand information about what's up with the X32 familiy.

I count on you X-Heads 8)~~
Christian

Anyone who has a chance to sneak to NAMM, please post some pics of new Behringer stuff. Anything you can learn. Shoot videos, talk to reps. We are all craving for news!!!

 

[Matthew Merkle]

Re: NAMM

It's not JUST labor. At most of these contract or manufacturer-owned factories in China workers get paid way more than average rates in the area, and these are high-demand jobs there. Manufacturers win because they don't have to deal with US or European trade unions' idiocies. Try to set up a factory in Silicon Valley: taxes and fixed costs alone will kill you, high cost of unionized labor will do the rest. Steve Jobs tried to produce his NeXT computers in California (during his time out of Apple), he failed big time: NeXT was priced way above of what an average customer can afford. He learned the lesson and since iMac all Apple stuff is made in China. Would you pay $4000 for an iPad or rather have it for less than a grand?

I'd love to see where you get the idea they're making so much money. Keep in mind they have to pay for their own food and lodging on-site, which usually eats up almost all of their money.

If California is too expensive for whatever reason, there's only... 47 other states that could do the work. Made in USA != Made in California.

And you bring up the Wal-Mart situation. This is exactly why you need to do more research, because it's that sort of dismissal that keeps these people in slavery. They were in uproar over losing hours because of how little they're already being paid. They didn't get a pay raise with those cut hours, they just cut hours. When you're making money below poverty level, living in shacks, where your take-home money is so small that you can never progress, move away, take a break, or otherwise... of course they're going to be mad. All this did was just institutionalize those workers further into believing that it could be worse.

This is NEVER about the culture. No culture would willingly accept such terrible working conditions if they were truly offered an alternative. They have never been offered such an alternative. No, instead, they're told "either work these hours, under these conditions, or we'll replace you with someone who will". After all, the moment you throw culture into it, you're just making excuses.

Anyway, I will agree this has little do with the thread, so if you still disagree with this statement, feel free to take it to PM. It just made me very uncomfortable to hear about such cavalier attitude over Chinese labor considering what it's really like over there.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: NAMM

I'd love to see where you get the idea they're making so much money. Keep in mind they have to pay for their own food and lodging on-site, which usually eats up almost all of their money.

If California is too expensive for whatever reason, there's only... 47 other states that could do the work. Made in USA != Made in California.

And you bring up the Wal-Mart situation. This is exactly why you need to do more research, because it's that sort of dismissal that keeps these people in slavery. They were in uproar over losing hours because of how little they're already being paid. They didn't get a pay raise with those cut hours, they just cut hours. When you're making money below poverty level, living in shacks, where your take-home money is so small that you can never progress, move away, take a break, or otherwise... of course they're going to be mad. All this did was just institutionalize those workers further into believing that it could be worse.

This is NEVER about the culture. No culture would willingly accept such terrible working conditions if they were truly offered an alternative. They have never been offered such an alternative. No, instead, they're told "either work these hours, under these conditions, or we'll replace you with someone who will". After all, the moment you throw culture into it, you're just making excuses.

Anyway, I will agree this has little do with the thread, so if you still disagree with this statement, feel free to take it to PM. It just made me very uncomfortable to hear about such cavalier attitude over Chinese labor considering what it's really like over there.

Matthew, my last reply on this: What people WANT and what they CAN AFFORD in that particular country (or in any country) are two totally different things. I was born and spent half of my life in Russia, met people from many other countries, I know Chinese community fairly well. In most other countries people are used to work hard for their money and they do appreciate good job and benefits it brings, even though they may look small compare to ours. When US factory opens in China or elsewhere, it boosts local economy, people there appreciate new jobs and better pay. If these entrepreneurs were forced to pay US labor rates and provide US benefits, there would be simply no factory there at all. It will be North Korea instead of South Korea (if you dig into history, South Korea started as industrial nation by servicing US Army troops stationed there after the war).

But please enough of this! Take it to political discussion boards or Facebook. Will anyone from this thread be on NAMM?

 

[Matthew Merkle]

Re: NAMM

But please enough of this! Take it to political discussion boards or Facebook. Will anyone from this thread be on NAMM?

You know, instead of trying to have the last word, you could have just taken this to PM. No worries though, I'll do everyone a favor and not engage you further.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: NAMM

I like QSC, most of my main mobile PA boxes are QSC HPR153i, have six of them. Subs are JBL SRX-728s, but powered by QSC PLX-3602 amps. Also have GX-7 amps driving JBL dual 15" sidefills. Had to get them all used, HPRs were no longer available as new, amps were like new, barely used. Had K-12 as floor monitors before switching to in-ears. Small QSCs are reasonable, only product that's priced over the top is KLA line array. $2500 for a KLA-12 two-way 12" speaker (basic block of KLA), which is essentially the same as $800 K-12, in slightly different box, is way too much. Same about KLA-181 sub, same speaker as KW-181 floor sub in slightly bigger box and line array mounting hardware, but costs $2399, twice as much.

"Made in USA" has little value, for me it's rather admitting own inability to set up cost-efficient production overseas. All our Apple products are made in China, mostly by Foxconn (contract manufacturer), and nobody complains about quality of iPhones, iPads and MacBooks. And as Behringer has shown us, you can make quality products in China by having own factory where you control every aspect of production. Essentially it is German factory in China, staffed by Chinese workers. I'd rather see them assembling products, following instructions to the last dot, than union-rotten American workforce that will drive cost through the roof.

PLONK.

I will limit my reply to this: It is impossible for workers in *any* developed, 1st world country to meet the same wages & conditions of workers in emerging economies. That's one of the fundamental differences between such economies. In the beginning, every economy exploits (in the true sense of the word) natural resources, human resources, and the environment. Until such economies no longer exist this will continue. This is not a simple topic and laying blame at the feet of U.S. working men & women, of whom only 8% are unionized, is disingenuous at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

 

[Tom Manchester]

Re: NAMM

except that's not strictly true - if you look at Behringer and the x32, they have specifically elongated their warranty more than the competition (at least in the UK, i assume 3 years also isn't standard in other territories, thomann's promise not withstanding) and Behringer actually go looking for issues to sort on multiple forums, showing that premium service doesn't have to cost the buyer a premium - it just takes a manufacturer to sacrifice a small profit to invest in their customers. - now THAT'S a game changer.

That's fairly irrelevant to my original point. Mate use made the assertion that Apple was overpriced. I said that in addition to good hardware and warranty you ALSO get a redicously we'll staffed store at virtually any mall in the USA where you can take your product if you have issues. That costs a lot of money, and you pay for it in the upfront cost of the apple product.

Mercedes makes a great car, you ALSO get free battery jumps, emergency gas, and tire changes basically anywhere you are FOR AS LONG AS THE CAR EXISTS. You pay for that premium service up front when you buy the car instead if having to pay for after the breakdown occurs.

Again, I'm not saying behringer is doing a bad thing here, I just think it's status quo for what a "good" say, compaq or HP level company should provide. I'm sure my $300 laptop came with a decent warranty and there's probably a forum or 1-800 number I can call, but there is no Compaq store in my mall, and I didn't get a free and automatic update to the new Windows when it was released.

Show me a Behringer staffed store in every guitar center with directly employed behringer employees who can answer any question and handle any issue with the same $3000 price point and then we'll talk about game changing.

 

[Gary Weller]

Re: Low Cut on channel

I was playing around with my Compact today, setting up some scenes for "generic use". I noticed while setting up a pre-eq monitor mixes that even if you have the channel send set for pre-eq that the low cut filter always affects the pre-eq send. Is there a way to make the pre-eq send totally pre-eq or does the tap always come after the low cut?

 

[Cole Lofink]

Re: NAMM

I agree with Tom that you really do get what you pay for when it comes to Apple products. I don't think they are over priced at all. And at this time I don't think the Behringer company even compares to Apple. Why Behringer is busy copying products, Apple is looking for the next "game changer". There is nothing revolutionary about the X32. Behringer was busy knocking off Mackie products while Yamaha was at the fore front of innovation and design with digital mixing consoles.

While all of you continue to look for the cheapest and easiest way to run your company's people like Tom and myself will be looking for the best way. And like the iPhone we may not be the cheapest available, but in two years when your clients become tired of your short comings and excuses, we will be available. It may of took a few years but, look how popular the iPhone has become.

 

[Spenser Hamilton]

Re: NAMM

I agree with Tom that you really do get what you pay for when it comes to Apple products. I don't think they are over priced at all. And at this time I don't think the Behringer company even compares to Apple. Why Behringer is busy copying products, Apple is looking for the next "game changer". There is nothing revolutionary about the X32. Behringer was busy knocking off Mackie products while Yamaha was at the fore front of innovation and design with digital mixing consoles.

While all of you continue to look for the cheapest and easiest way to run your company's people like Tom and myself will be looking for the best way. And like the iPhone we may not be the cheapest available, but in two years when your clients become tired of your short comings and excuses, we will be available. It may of took a few years but, look how popular the iPhone has become.

How obnoxiously condescending... :yawn:

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: NAMM

That's fairly irrelevant to my original point. Mate use made the assertion that Apple was overpriced. I said that in addition to good hardware and warranty you ALSO get a redicously we'll staffed store at virtually any mall in the USA where you can take your product if you have issues. That costs a lot of money, and you pay for it in the upfront cost of the apple product.

Mercedes makes a great car, you ALSO get free battery jumps, emergency gas, and tire changes basically anywhere you are FOR AS LONG AS THE CAR EXISTS. You pay for that premium service up front when you buy the car instead if having to pay for after the breakdown occurs.

Again, I'm not saying behringer is doing a bad thing here, I just think it's status quo for what a "good" say, compaq or HP level company should provide. I'm sure my $300 laptop came with a decent warranty and there's probably a forum or 1-800 number I can call, but there is no Compaq store in my mall, and I didn't get a free and automatic update to the new Windows when it was released.

Show me a Behringer staffed store in every guitar center with directly employed behringer employees who can answer any question and handle any issue with the same $3000 price point and then we'll talk about game changing.

Before "genius bars" and FruitStores, Apple users provided a huge amount of self-support on Usenet. While long having appeal in the creative community, our uses were statistically pretty small and getting help meant software authors and newsgroups and even BBS (showing my age here).

Apple has done the math and figured out how many buyers who require no live support it takes to provide that support to those who do need it. Kind of like insurance, the folks that don't need it today subsidize those who do. Your turn might be next. And getting you into the store gives them the opportunity to up sell demonstrate new products and accessories. It's to Apple's advantage even if your visit isn't initially for shopping.

I don't think your $300 Dell/Walmart analogy is valid, though. You bought a discount product at a discount retailer, fully aware of the potential support limitations and likely build quality. I think it would be unrealistic to expect Apple-level support at 30% of the price. Apple can't do that, either, and charges a premium price to provide support (among other things). The Fruit product is a value if you need in person support, especially if the product is used in your trade or business. A big slice of their market, though, will never *require* a genius and online/phone support works, if needed at all.

Finally, your comment about Uli having an in-store "store" at Banjo Depot. The economies of scale don't work. Apple sells a premium product and sells millions of them. How many Apple Stores are there in the US? I know we don't have one here in Wichita (MSA of ~600,000 pop) but we have a Banjo Depot, and BD is in smaller markets than ours, too. Not sure how a value-product manufacturer could be expected to provide in person support for the *dozens* of X32 or *hundreds* of amps, other mixers, etc in this market. They aren't selling iphones and pads...

I think what is potentially important is that this is, I suspect, the opening salvo of integration between brands and product lines. Much like Harman is still doing, Music Group appears to be charging into at full speed. At this scale the only players are Harman, Yamaha and Music Group. Being able to affect Yammy and Sid's Kids IS game changing from a business standpoint, the hoopla over the x32 not withstanding.

 

[Chris Greco]

Re: NAMM

I agree with Tom that you really do get what you pay for when it comes to Apple products. I don't think they are over priced at all. And at this time I don't think the Behringer company even compares to Apple. Why Behringer is busy copying products, Apple is looking for the next "game changer". There is nothing revolutionary about the X32. Behringer was busy knocking off Mackie products while Yamaha was at the fore front of innovation and design with digital mixing consoles.

While all of you continue to look for the cheapest and easiest way to run your company's people like Tom and myself will be looking for the best way. And like the iPhone we may not be the cheapest available, but in two years when your clients become tired of your short comings and excuses, we will be available. It may of took a few years but, look how popular the iPhone has become.

Unfortunately, Yamaha was at the for front and yes they are the most popular pro desk out there but just imagine if they had addressed the segment of the market that the X32 successfully did. Hell I bought an X32 and a spare for a series of shows that I wouldn't dare bring a $20,000 console out on because of the environment, and I'm still ahead of the game. I'd even venture to say that my X32 sounds better. It takes creative competition to shake things up in any market. Just because the X32 is at a price point that some snub their noses up at, doesn't mean it doesn't share a place in our world. Granted your probably not gonna see it on any riders, but if your artists aren't demanding the latest and greatest then it's probably a good fit. If you need to have rider acceptance then by all means you need to go another route but I believe the majority of the guys that post on this board are not in that boat. By the way I have an Android, but I do have a Mac.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: NAMM

I totally admire Uli Behringer, no matter what people say he has the VISION and the results speak for themselves.

I decided not to say what I was thinking...

 

[Tom Manchester]

Re: NAMM

Before "genius bars" and FruitStores, Apple users provided a huge amount of self-support on Usenet. While long having appeal in the creative community, our uses were statistically pretty small and getting help meant software authors and newsgroups and even BBS (showing my age here).

Apple has done the math and figured out how many buyers who require no live support it takes to provide that support to those who do need it. Kind of like insurance, the folks that don't need it today subsidize those who do. Your turn might be next. And getting you into the store gives them the opportunity to up sell demonstrate new products and accessories. It's to Apple's advantage even if your visit isn't initially for shopping.

I don't think your $300 Dell/Walmart analogy is valid, though. You bought a discount product at a discount retailer, fully aware of the potential support limitations and likely build quality. I think it would be unrealistic to expect Apple-level support at 30% of the price. Apple can't do that, either, and charges a premium price to provide support (among other things). The Fruit product is a value if you need in person support, especially if the product is used in your trade or business. A big slice of their market, though, will never *require* a genius and online/phone support works, if needed at all.

Finally, your comment about Uli having an in-store "store" at Banjo Depot. The economies of scale don't work. Apple sells a premium product and sells millions of them. How many Apple Stores are there in the US? I know we don't have one here in Wichita (MSA of ~600,000 pop) but we have a Banjo Depot, and BD is in smaller markets than ours, too. Not sure how a value-product manufacturer could be expected to provide in person support for the *dozens* of X32 or *hundreds* of amps, other mixers, etc in this market. They aren't selling iphones and pads...

I think what is potentially important is that this is, I suspect, the opening salvo of integration between brands and product lines. Much like Harman is still doing, Music Group appears to be charging into at full speed. At this scale the only players are Harman, Yamaha and Music Group. Being able to affect Yammy and Sid's Kids IS game changing from a business standpoint, the hoopla over the x32 not withstanding.

Maybe my point was out if context Tim, but I was trying to say, in a way, what you just said. In other words, a couple people further up the thread said something to the effect of "I hope behringer can become like apple, but without the "high" cost. I was simply refuting the fact that at current prices, it's not reasonable to expect that.

I bought my $300 laptop hoping it would last a year, and figuring if it broke I would have to fix it.
I bought my apple because it was the exact tool needed for the job (pro tools recording) and fully expecting excellent support from the manufacturer. I'm simply saying, the x32 is probably a fine product for the job, but i don't believe that behringer has really gone above and beyond like others have suggested.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: NAMM

I'm simply saying, the x32 is probably a fine product for the job, but i don't believe that behringer has really gone above and beyond like others have suggested.

The only way Behringer has gone 'above & beyond' is in comparison to their previous allegations of support and service. I hope the changes we've seen indicate the beginning of service in the USA, not the terminal conclusion.

 

[Pauly Mel]

Monitor Whining Noise - Is it fixed in later versions of the X32

Hi

I was just wondering if the monitor whining noise is now Fixed in the latest generation of X32s.

It's one thing if you 'cant hear it in my desk' which may have many true meaning - It's another if you know something was changed in the production process and the issue no longer exists.

Please tell me if you know, because I'd quite happily drop my desk to some live production company so I can purchase one without the whine.

Thanks
Pauly

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Monitor Whining Noise - Is it fixed in later versions of the X32

Hi

I was just wondering if the monitor whining noise is now Fixed in the latest generation of X32s.

It's one thing if you 'cant hear it in my desk' which may have many true meaning - It's another if you know something was changed in the production process and the issue no longer exists.

Please tell me if you know, because I'd quite happily drop my desk to some live production company so I can purchase one without the whine.

Thanks
Pauly

That depends in part on how fast the national distributor of the product goes through their allotment.

I know that in September or October we sold an X32, and its build date and firmware were the same as the ones I bought in February which all have the whine. (We don't stock product for sale, so it was fresh from the distributor.)

I also know that a console which was sent back for repair (specifically to fix the monitor whine issue) in October or November was fixed or reduced in whine level by 10db or so, while one that I sent in for that issue and a sticky button in August or September was not. (Sticky button fixed, whine not fixed.)

FWIW.

Good luck,
Dan

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: NAMM

QSC has a long and admirable history of developing new technologies in-house, designing and building excellent products and standing behind them 110%.
They represent some of the best value products accepted at a professional level our industry offers. When you call them "ridiculously overpriced" your ass is showing.

With all due respect to you and QSC (I own bunch of QSC amps and speakers, most were bought used and not a single one ever failed!), I still didn't get how nearly identical K-12 and KLA-12 speakers (both 12" two-way in a plastic box, with almost identical 1000W amp module) can have three times the price difference ($800 vs. $2500). Do you honestly believe that KLA-12 isn't overpriced?

KLA line are the only boxes that seems to be priced over the top, rest of HPR and KW series are pretty much on par with JBL offerings. PLX-2 amps have no substitute at their price.