X32 Discussion

[Jan Duwe]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi All,


... The safe power down feature, Is it gone?

Hi Johnny,


safe shutdown is now combined with the console lock function. Just hold the home button depressed for like 5 s. While the console is locked, the previous state was stored, and it is pretty safe to shut the console down any time you like. Note however, that the lock function will only lock the control surface, but the console will still be responding to any remote control via osc.


If you read the 2.0 release notes, you might know that the new lock function also allows to hold some arbitrary buttons depressed while locking. The console can only be unlocked when pressing the exact same buttons again together with Home.


Cheers to everybody from a busy ISE show in Amsterdam, which just opened its doors.
best,
Jan

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

I believe it's around 150 meters, John.

Ethernet CAT5 standard is limited to 100 m/ 305 feet between devices, but AES50 is different protocol than computer networks in the buildings, it may go longer. I once made a cable on the fly from leftover shitty CAT5 (snapped the RJ-45 plugs at both ends), used the whole length (just because I didn't want to cut it). Worked fine, I measured it afterwards, turned to be 376 feet / 115 meters, worked fine (between X32 and S16).

I normally use CAT6, longest cable I have is about 350 feet. I was doing some commercial data networks before, pulled quite a bit of CAT5, so I made all my cables myself. I think it's rather the difference in brands and RJ-45 connectors, they are not the same, I had different results with different makes of cable. Just experiment!

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: X32 Discussion

Ethernet CAT5 standard is limited to 100 m/ 305 feet between devices, but AES50 is different protocol than computer networks in the buildings, it may go longer. I once made a cable on the fly from leftover shitty CAT5 (snapped the RJ-45 plugs at both ends), used the whole length (just because I didn't want to cut it). Worked fine, I measured it afterwards, turned to be 376 feet / 115 meters, worked fine (between X32 and S16).

I normally use CAT6, longest cable I have is about 350 feet.

Aes50 have exactly the same physical limitations as ethernet.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

Cheers to everybody from a busy ISE show in Amsterdam, which just opened its doors.
best,

[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Jan DUWE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Assistant Manager, Conceptual Engineering[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MUSIC Group Services EU GmbH[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Jan,

Conceptual question: Currently channel/groups/DCA scribble strips only allow to enter one line of text as its name. The strip itself displays up to 4 lines of text just fine, perfectly readable, as you can see on effect parameters display at the right. Would that be possible to allow to enter two lines of text per channel display? For now if snippet symbols are not used, a lot of display area is just wasted.

I don't use snippets at all (they are barely recognizable anyway). I'd rather have the ability to enter more text information.
It would be nice, for example, to have first line in DCA/Groups/Buses section as "DCA 6" or "MTX 6", not just "6" as now. Then second and third line should allow to enter some meaningful text. MIDAS Pro desks don't use snippets at scribble strips either, text names only, and nobody complains about it. Neither does AVID S3L.

Having full name on the top line (i.e. "BUS 6" instead of "6" will lead to less errors. For now I have to use the same colour for each layer (a-la-Soundcraft) or constantly check which layer select button is illuminated.

May be it's possible to change software that if no snippet symbol is selected then two lines of text are available for entry. Do you guys plan to implement something like this?

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

Midas M32 Live Sound Console Review - YouTube

Says that the X32 has sold 100,000+ units. Behringer has done a great job there!
Also Midas M32 is currently 48KHz

At NAMM video by FOH magazine, MIDAS rep states that preamps in M32 are the same as in Pro consoles/stageboxes, so they gotta be 96K. Question is how soon they will update firmware in M32 to support 96K all they way. My guess is that 96K was originally planned, to further distinguish M32 from X32 and aim it to higher end of market, but since it is based on X32 it turned to be more complicated then just doubling the clock. That's why M32 is still "96K-ready", not "96K" yet at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c2rCe8vGXo4

 

[Han Klein Haneveld]

Re: X32 Discussion

He did not say it is only 48k. He meant to say, I think, it cán work on 48k, so Behringer stuf could be used.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

He did not say it is only 48k. He meant to say, I think, it cán work on 48k, so Behringer stuf could be used.

MIDAS Pro stageboxes (151/153 and 251 at least) support both 48K and 96K. Problem is that M32 does not work at 96K yet, so entire M32-based system is forced to stay at 48K.

The question is how much the actual difference in sound will between 48K and 96K in M32. I other words, how it will sounds from internal preamps, with DL16 at 48K and 96K, with S16 at 48K and with Pro stageboxes also at 48K and 96K.

The Pro desks will sound different for sure, but they are entirely different animals. I would imagine that M32 even at 96K will sound different than Pro-1 or Pro-2, but for how much? And how much M32 sound will improve over X32? Sample rate is not the only indicator of quality, preamp design matters more. There are $100 preamps, and there are $2000 and more boutique designs, both running at 96K. Gotta be a reason for such a difference in price.

 

[Peter Howarth]

Re: X32 Discussion

Jan,

Conceptual question: Currently channel/groups/DCA scribble strips only allow to enter one line of text as its name. The strip itself displays up to 4 lines of text just fine, perfectly readable, as you can see on effect parameters display at the right. Would that be possible to allow to enter two lines of text per channel display? For now if snippet symbols are not used, a lot of display area is just wasted.

Good point, and something I'd love to see.

Peter


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: X32 Discussion

At NAMM video by FOH magazine, MIDAS rep states that preamps in M32 are the same as in Pro consoles/stageboxes, so they gotta be 96K. Question is how soon they will update firmware in M32 to support 96K all they way. My guess is that 96K was originally planned, to further distinguish M32 from X32 and aim it to higher end of market, but since it is based on X32 it turned to be more complicated then just doubling the clock. That's why M32 is still "96K-ready", not "96K" yet at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c2rCe8vGXo4

Preamps are not the same as A/D converters, which define the clock rate.

 

[Han Klein Haneveld]

Re: X32 Discussion

MIDAS Pro stageboxes (151/153 and 251 at least) support both 48K and 96K. Problem is that M32 does not work at 96K yet, so entire M32-based system is forced to stay at 48K.

M32 supports both rates to.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

Originally Posted by Arik Semagin
MIDAS Pro stageboxes (151/153 and 251 at least) support both 48K and 96K. Problem is that M32 does not work at 96K yet, so entire M32-based system is forced to stay at 48K.

M32 supports both rates to.

Han, where did you get this information? Did anyone from MIDAS stated it or you saw the actual "96K" option at M32 setup screen? I didn't see it anywhere.

MIDAS people, please clarify this, is M32 true "96K" now, or still "96K-ready" (means there are no 96K option to select)?

I suspect that pre-sale M32 firmware (current) is exactly the same as X32, except for a startup screen. Any ideas when M32 will be available?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 Discussion

Worked fine, I measured it afterwards, turned to be 376 feet / 115 meters, worked fine (between X32 and S16).

Was that running at 44.1 KHz? The sync protocol looks like it will allow longer length at 44.1 KHz. The limit is not fixed as such, it will vary depending on the capasitance etc. of the cable. The 100m limit has some safety factor built in, but one doesn't go much longer before sync problems are ripe.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

Preamps are not the same as A/D converters, which define the clock rate.

Totally understand and agree with Bennett, my point was that there's still some analog schematics in digital preamps, before signal hits the A/D chips (not just straight wire from XLR jack), what makes a difference in various preamps even a the same clock rate. Therefore M32 preamps may sound different even at 48K than X32 preamps. Question is how much the audible difference will be.

I'm surprised that MIDAS people haven't made it clear here yet, is M32 96K as of now or just 96K-ready, means there are no option to choose 96K at the setup.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

Was that running at 44.1 KHz? The sync protocol looks like it will allow longer length at 44.1 KHz. The limit is not fixed as such, it will vary depending on the capasitance etc. of the cable. The 100m limit has some safety factor built in, but one doesn't go much longer before sync problems are ripe.

It was 48K, happen to be an unexpected experiment with that piece of CAT5 left in the venue (regular network CAT5, not shielded). Cables and connectors are different from brand to brand, and I think 100m limit is no more than a safety margin (why round number, not 94 or 118 meters for example?).

The conductors (wires) in CAT6 are slightly thicker than in CAT5, hence less resistance, should work even at bigger lengths. I haven't run into any sync problems yet. Also, the AES50 is a different protocol than Ethernet or even AVB (CAT5/6 is just a physical medium to send signal over). It may well go beyond Ethernet 100m limit.

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: X32 Discussion

Also, the AES50 is a different protocol than Ethernet or even AVB (CAT5/6 is just a physical medium to send signal over). It may well go beyond Ethernet 100m limit.

Aes50 uses packets very similar to standard ethernet packets, but the frame type is set to aes50 and the address information isn't there due to the point-to-point architecture. Aes50-supermac is 100mbit.

Aes50 also adds a clock synk signal on two pairs in addition to the two pairs used for data transfer.


What may not be commonly known is that each aes50 frame embedds 5% of ethernet data. This means that the aes50-supermac protocol supports 5mbit ethernet as OOB data.

 

[Klaus Roethlisberger]

Re: X32 Discussion

Is it possible to change the channel order, without changing routing / assigning / naming etc ?
X32-edit / core / faderbox - rig under test... comparing with my Motu rigs, and there, I just grab a channelstrip and drag to the new position in mixer view

Thanks for clearing up

and best regards

Klaus

 

[Han Klein Haneveld]

Re: X32 Discussion

Originally Posted by Arik Semagin
MIDAS Pro stageboxes (151/153 and 251 at least) support both 48K and 96K. Problem is that M32 does not work at 96K yet, so entire M32-based system is forced to stay at 48K.



Han, where did you get this information? Did anyone from MIDAS stated it or you saw the actual "96K" option at M32 setup screen? I didn't see it anywhere.

MIDAS M32

Says:

192 kHz ADC and DAC converters for outstanding audio performance.

Ad when you lick 'More' and scroll down:
Industry-Leading 192 kHz Precision

The groundbreaking M32 console combines legendary MIDAS sound quality with advanced digital technology, future-proof 96 kHz capable open architecture design and industry-leading 192 kHz ADC and DAC converters, creating a revolutionary mid-format live console. M32 features ultra-sleek styling, offering you a truly luxurious mixing experience. High-end construction materials including carbon fibre provide unparalleled durability and strength, plus substantially lower weight than comparable consoles.
The M32 utilises award-winning MIDAS PRO Series microphone preamplifiers and the custom-designed MIDAS PRO motorised faders that are rated for 1 million life cycles—three times more than other leading consoles.
The MIDAS M32 is a future-forward console that completely raises the bar for live mixing.

 

[Matthew Merkle]

Re: X32 Discussion

It was 48K, happen to be an unexpected experiment with that piece of CAT5 left in the venue (regular network CAT5, not shielded). Cables and connectors are different from brand to brand, and I think 100m limit is no more than a safety margin (why round number, not 94 or 118 meters for example?).

The 100m limit is simply a certification limit. That means that the cable is only certified to work for that length. It's not unusual to hear ethernet runs reaching much further, but there's no guarantees of a solid connection if you do so. It should be noted that differing materials, EMI in the surrounding area, and how poorly the connectors on the ends are spliced can significantly impact that length, especially beyond 100m. The connections at the end alone are actually supposed to be stripped and crimped a certain way to truly reach the certified limit.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

MIDAS M32

Says:

192 kHz ADC and DAC converters for outstanding audio performance.

Ad when you lick 'More' and scroll down:
Industry-Leading 192 kHz Precision

The groundbreaking M32 console combines legendary MIDAS sound quality with advanced digital technology, future-proof 96 kHz capable open architecture design and industry-leading 192 kHz ADC and DAC converters, creating a revolutionary mid-format live console. M32 features ultra-sleek styling, offering you a truly luxurious mixing experience. High-end construction materials including carbon fibre provide unparalleled durability and strength, plus substantially lower weight than comparable consoles.
The M32 utilises award-winning MIDAS PRO Series microphone preamplifiers and the custom-designed MIDAS PRO motorised faders that are rated for 1 million life cycles—three times more than other leading consoles.
The MIDAS M32 is a future-forward console that completely raises the bar for live mixing.

I saw it, it clearly states that M32 is only "96K capable" (I highlighted it above), means it's still runs at 48K. As for converters, it refers to Cirrus Logic A/D chips that can go even higher, up to 216 KHz, I think. It does not mean that they are actually running at that rate.

As someone pointed before, the reason for higher clock rate may be simply because 48KHz chips are no longer available (I'm pretty sure that even the A/D chips inside of S16 preamps can do that, have to get their model numbers and look up the specs).

Running A/D chips at 192KHz will produce double the amount of numerical data that needs to be processed (M32 is essentially a specialized computer), that may do little for sound quality, because sooooo many other factors are involved. And if everything else runs at 96K, higher clock rates of A/D converters doesn't make any sense. Even someone at recording forums mentioned that rates above 96K do little for sound quality.

If M32 is a true 96K desk, then all MIDAS has to do is to post a pic of a setup screen (similar to one below) showing 96K as available clock rate. I think MIDAS keeps their mouth shut now about all this "96K/non-96K" and neither confirms or denies M32 running at 96K because they are hoping to make M32 firmware full 96K before it goes on sale. Then it will be a true MIDAS desk running at 96K as the Pro desks. Smart marketing strategy, Uli is doing the right thing again.

But until we'll get M32 in our hands and run all kind of tests we won't know what it is and how much 96K will make a difference vs. running M32 at 48K. For now I'll be happy to throw an extra $2K for its cool look and MIDAS logo (and for those customers who want MIDAS), even if it's a full functional equivalent of X32.

 

[Arik Semagin]

Re: X32 Discussion

.....especially beyond 100m. The connections at the end alone are actually supposed to be stripped and crimped a certain way to truly reach the certified limit.

I've made thousands of those RJ-45 connectors doing data networks. Normally customer specifies brands and sometimes even part numbers of cable and connectors, those that were tested for maximum performance. A simple continuity tester doesn't reveal this, you'll need something like Pentascanner to measure actual signal degradation. Good thing is that we operate at 100MBps at the most (AES50, Ethersound), so it's not that critical as in Gigabit data networks. Cable is very different indeed, especially plenum-rated, plastic is harder.

BTW what gets stripped on cable when making ends is only outer jacket, individual conductors' insulation isn't. RJ-45 cuts through it when crimped.