X32 Discussion

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Looks like Yamaha might be a year, too, although I can't find them saying it anywhere. Also, I can't find the CL series at all, only PM5d, PM1800 (thought that was long gone), DM2000, LS9, PM1D, and some more I never heard of.

Odd.

Edit: The only thing I could find was a single sheet pdf titled "Limited Warranty on Live Sound Products", and had a chart with a bunch of product names that didn't recognize except SPX. The chart didn't survive copy/paste, unfortunately.

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Presonus is also not upfront... you have to dig deep...

PreSonus Audio Electronics Inc. warrants this product to be free of defects in material and workmanship for a
period of one year from the date of original retail purchase. This warranty is enforceable only by the original
retail purchaser

so behringer still has the longest warranty...

One nice thing about presonus is that they have a fixed bench fee (in the US! Not in other countries). But the cool thing is that your console will get a new one year warranty when repaired.

So in a sense presonus has the best manufacturer warranty of them all. And you always know how much a repair will be...

Here in sweden we have more or less a three year warranty but the catch is that after one year the customer is the one who needs to prove the defect to be the fault of a manufacturer.

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

not sure you are fair dan... actually behringer is better then others...

Digico UK Ltd warrants for a period of 1 year from the date of purchase of the Product.

Allen & Heath. Limited One Year Warranty. This product has been manufactured by ALLEN & HEATH and is warranted to be free from
defects in materials or workmanship for the period of one year from the date of purchase by the original owner.

Yamaha offers 1 year on mixers.
http://usa.yamaha.com/support/warranty/live_sound/images/PAC_LiveSoundProductsSept2012.pdf

Avid. The limited warranty covers the hardware for one (1) year after it has been acquired by the
first user.
http://www.avid.com/static/resources/common/documents/corporate/Avid_Hardware_Warranty_en.pdf

Soundcarft. took me a whole to find and It is 1 year from purchase. But they are not transparent. Try to find out from their website , very difficult
Soundcraft - [Warranty]

interesting, behringer actually has the best warranty and the lowest price for their products.

I sell all of these brands. What you may not know is that the non-Behringer companies listed do in fact go above and beyond to keep their customer's happy. I have two customers who have had different issues with iLives, both of which were past warranty. In one case, a tech was flown in and the mods were made to the console on AM&S's dime. In the other case, the console control surface was replaced. Does the warranty say they will do this? No. Do they do it? At their discretion. It does happen.

My Soundcraft rep went to bat for a customer with a Performer issue. Soundcraft finally said screw it, give the man a Vi, no extra charge. That's what happened. There is a new group of people at Soundcraft/Harman really wanting to step it up a notch. Does warranty say they will do this? No. Do they? Yes, at their discretion.

Avid has more hoops to jump through, but the tech support is accessible 24/7. Do all of these consoles fall apart after one year? No. Not hardly.

It really comes down to relationships. If you have partnered with your rep, and they go before the powers that be on your behalf, mountains can be moved. This is where buying in your territory pays off.

 

[Klaus Mock]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Hmm. All this generous help of manufacturer looks nice. But this is not really possible 'free of charge'. Someone must pay this. And I am afraid that this is paid by each customer when they buy a product of that company. This additional price for the new items can be seen as something like an insurance. Wouldn't it be better that I pay less at the beginning and, in there rare occurance of a fault, pay the repair fee?
Hmmm.

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Hmm. All this generous help of manufacturer looks nice. But this is not really possible 'free of charge'. Someone must pay this. And I am afraid that this is paid by each customer when they buy a product of that company. This additional price for the new items can be seen as something like an insurance. Wouldn't it be better that I pay less at the beginning and, in there rare occurance of a fault, pay the repair fee?
Hmmm.

How else do you think PreSonus can build a new headquarters, Behringer can build a new service center in Vegas, etc, etc, etc? How else can they all afford to spend $40k-$60k on a NAMM, AES or some other trade show? How do they pay for all of the techs? It is all built in to the cost of the product.

Sure you can pay less up front. Buy something cheaper. There are those options out there. When you have a major failure and need some resolution ASAP, you will receive the service you paid for. At that point, you could be replacing it.



As for A&H, that was AM&S's doing, so the manufacturer did not take the hit. The US Distributor did.
Sometimes the manufacturer choosing replacement is cheaper than tech-ing it. Sometimes replacement is better customer service relations. After all, people remember and talk about how companies recover when there are issues. All of that chatter affects the longevity of the company. It is far easier for companies to replace than it is to dedicate resources defending themselves on these forums and dealing with decreased sales and lost jobs.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

I sell all of these brands. What you may not know is that the non-Behringer companies listed do in fact go above and beyond to keep their customer's happy. I have two customers who have had different issues with iLives, both of which were past warranty. In one case, a tech was flown in and the mods were made to the console on AM&S's dime. In the other case, the console control surface was replaced. Does the warranty say they will do this? No. Do they do it? At their discretion. It does happen.

My Soundcraft rep went to bat for a customer with a Performer issue. Soundcraft finally said screw it, give the man a Vi, no extra charge. That's what happened. There is a new group of people at Soundcraft/Harman really wanting to step it up a notch. Does warranty say they will do this? No. Do they? Yes, at their discretion.

Avid has more hoops to jump through, but the tech support is accessible 24/7. Do all of these consoles fall apart after one year? No. Not hardly.

It really comes down to relationships. If you have partnered with your rep, and they go before the powers that be on your behalf, mountains can be moved. This is where buying in your territory pays off.

Avid's phone support and after-warranty service have been very good - good techs who can dispatch replacement parts/assemblies without papal dispensation. Avid's support philosophy for Venue products seems to be "if we should have caught/fixed this, we will not gouge the customer if it's out of warranty."

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Hmm. All this generous help of manufacturer looks nice. But this is not really possible 'free of charge'. Someone must pay this. And I am afraid that this is paid by each customer when they buy a product of that company. This additional price for the new items can be seen as something like an insurance. Wouldn't it be better that I pay less at the beginning and, in there rare occurance of a fault, pay the repair fee?
Hmmm.

When your mixer fails at the headline act's sound check, the cheap price is long, long forgotten if you can't get someone on the phone to help make it work.

It's insurance for reputation, not just gear. A fucked up console might cost us $500 - $1000 to repair, or $30,000 to replace. If we lose a client it will cost us much, much more. This is part of the difference between Varsity & Jr. Varsity. If a failure costs someone a bar gig, it's probably not a big deal (nobody feeds their family & pays the mortgage as a 1 person firm doing bar bands), but if we lose Live Nation or a big festival, we'll probably have to sack some folks to stay in business.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

@Brent,

The shows I do (automotive) cost us much more than 60K. I am guessing more like 200K for 2x 60x30 2 level stands with an overhead walkway connecting the tops. A small plot could be had for 60k in my neck of the woods.

@Tim (and others),

Yes, a failure for you big boy operators would be very expensive indeed ...... if you didn't have a backup.

I have been doing bar gigs for ~15 years and have always had a backup on hand even for my pathetically small stuff. Surely you guys carry some backup mixer as insurance for such an important gig don't you?

I would think that going out on an B touring band venue (something that would actually be acceptable for an X32) without a backup mixer would be like driving through the desert without a spare tire.

 

[Brent Handy]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

@Brent,

The shows I do (automotive) cost us much more than 60K. I am guessing more like 200K for 2x 60x30 2 level stands with an overhead walkway connecting the tops. A small plot could be had for 60k in my neck of the woods.

@Tim (and others),

Yes, a failure for you big boy operators would be very expensive indeed ...... if you didn't have a backup.

I have been doing bar gigs for ~15 years and have always had a backup on hand even for my pathetically small stuff. Surely you guys carry some backup mixer as insurance for such an important gig don't you?

I would think that going out on an B touring band venue (something that would actually be acceptable for an X32) without a backup mixer would be like driving through the desert without a spare tire.

Holy crap. 200k? That would really weed out the men from the boys in the AVL industry.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

@Brent,

The shows I do (automotive) cost us much more than 60K. I am guessing more like 200K for 2x 60x30 2 level stands with an overhead walkway connecting the tops. A small plot could be had for 60k in my neck of the woods.

@Tim (and others),

Yes, a failure for you big boy operators would be very expensive indeed ...... if you didn't have a backup.

I have been doing bar gigs for ~15 years and have always had a backup on hand even for my pathetically small stuff. Surely you guys carry some backup mixer as insurance for such an important gig don't you?

I would think that going out on an B touring band venue (something that would actually be acceptable for an X32) without a backup mixer would be like driving through the desert without a spare tire.

We have a back up of some sort, but for a one-off where you're contracted for a specific model an identical spare needs to be billable. We arrange for this when clients request it.

{STORY}
Our SC48 had a hard drive begin to fail. Saturday afternoon, called Avid support. Called back in about 5 minutes, the tech walked me through trouble shooting. Headline BE opted to do his sound check and save to USB stick. I went to Be$t Buy for a 2.5" SATA drive. Got back, sound check was being saved. Called Avid back and tech walked me through opening mixer. I replaced hard drive, loaded the software & plug ins, and it lived. The console was out of warranty but Avid shipped us a replacement HD anyway (it's now a cloned spare of the drive in the desk). The entire process was done while the touring support act put their stuff on stage. Loaded the headline show to verify everything and we were good to go. Reputation intact, with thanks from touring staff for immediately addressing the issue.{/STORY}

I think you'd be surprised at how many acts on the <8000 seat circuit don't carry a backup mixer. Why? Because you can usually find something locally. About a week ago we provided a mixer for an act who had a catastrophic desk failure a couple days before. They could have had another mixer sent out but with only a few shows left on the tour, local rentals were cheaper than air freight.

On big festivals it's common to have a pair of FOH consoles for guest use and space for a couple more for bands that want to use their own desks. If one of the guest mixers develops a problem, it's more of an inconvenience. You might check over at the PSW LAB, there is a thread about console switching at festivals.

Your right, though, our situations aren't identical. You're also in the band as well as the sound guy. The band has obligations, and you can't just call the shop and have something delivered.

The mostest important spares: mic cables and stand adapters.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Holy crap. 200k? That would really weed out the men from the boys in the AVL industry.

LOL. Yep. My company goes all out on the big auto supplier shows. We also use these events for meetings. Our setup at Automechanica in Germany last year had 5 meeting rooms, a free bar, and snacks served upstairs

Tim,

I am surprised that anyone would do a show of thousands without a backup! That would just make my skin crawl thinking about what might happen. Do you at least check the local shops to see if there is, in fact, a backup available should your SC48 die?

... and does the SC48 really compete with the X32? I looked it up and it appears to be aimed at a little higher market having 48 channels vs 32.... and costing many times the cost of the X32 (ten times if you go by list).

Quick thinking on the HD replacement! Getting HD errors on boot must give you a bad feeling low in your gut right before a big show

And yes, cables, extension cords, power strips, mic clips, extra mixer, extra top, extra guitars, extra TD-10 drum brain, extra XLR's, extra mic stand, extra IEM ear buds, and a few extra microphones are all part of my standard load.... and this is for a $500 to $700 small bar gig!

Of course, for me it is more about not wanting to miss a night out playing .... which I enjoy doing very much about once a month (it is a great break from my engineering career which can be very stressful). I would feel bad for the bar owner if something went really wrong, but not as bad as I would about missing my monthly gig!

I went in understanding that the X32 was only covered for mechanical issues for 1 year despite the stated 3 year warranty that is bantered around in their marketing. Considering the price of the X32, it doesn't seem like a bad deal to me. For the price of the M32, you could purchase 2 X32's and keep one in the trailer for a backup. 2 X32's would surely be more reliable than a single M32 wouldn't it?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

LOL. Yep. My company goes all out on the big auto supplier shows. We also use these events for meetings. Our setup at Automechanica in Germany last year had 5 meeting rooms, a free bar, and snacks served upstairs

Tim,

I am surprised that anyone would do a show of thousands without a backup! That would just make my skin crawl thinking about what might happen. Do you at least check the local shops to see if there is, in fact, a backup available should your SC48 die?

... and does the SC48 really compete with the X32? I looked it up and it appears to be aimed at a little higher market having 48 channels vs 32.... and costing many times the cost of the X32 (ten times if you go by list).

Quick thinking on the HD replacement! Getting HD errors on boot must give you a bad feeling low in your gut right before a big show

And yes, cables, extension cords, power strips, mic clips, extra mixer, extra top, extra guitars, extra TD-10 drum brain, extra XLR's, extra mic stand, extra IEM ear buds, and a few extra microphones are all part of my standard load.... and this is for a $500 to $700 small bar gig!

Of course, for me it is more about not wanting to miss a night out playing .... which I enjoy doing very much about once a month (it is a great break from my engineering career which can be very stressful). I would feel bad for the bar owner if something went really wrong, but not as bad as I would about missing my monthly gig!

I went in understanding that the X32 was only covered for mechanical issues for 1 year despite the stated 3 year warranty that is bantered around in their marketing. Considering the price of the X32, it doesn't seem like a bad deal to me. For the price of the M32, you could purchase 2 X32's and keep one in the trailer for a backup. 2 X32's would surely be more reliable than a single M32 wouldn't it?

Scott, read what I wrote. We have backups. In my little story the question was expediency. Because of Avid's support system, the desk was repaired in half the time it would have taken to get another SC48 or Profile system to the venue. Home town gig. We were covered either way. The actual failure was in the HD's User partition, and the Venue software will then use the System partition for user files. The desk still works but visual confirmation of some functions respond slower, that's why the headline BE was able to do his sound check and save to USB stick.

Since I also work as your friendly neighborhood IATSE stage hand, I see what tours carry and what is set up. I'm not joking when I say I see more Digico acts carrying spares. Maybe twice I've seen spare Avid racks. I think I've seen one spare Soundcraft Vi series. Another reason you don't often see a spare mixer is because someone on the tour crew is qualified to use a screwdriver and VOM and has phone support from their own technicians or from the factory.

This isn't a comparison of X32 to SC48, Scott. It was a response to a post about support and the costs that adds to the price of goods. You're right, the SC-48 is a lot more $ than an X32, and doubtless that level of support adds to the cost.

The M32 is the X32-ish mixer for people that can't have the B-word on their gear for whatever reasons. I'm sure there will eventually be really marketable feature differences to justify a market position that commands a higher price tag. Some folks think 96k is important and worth paying for, for example. Connectivity with KT converters and i/o of various flavors could make the M32 the "spare mixer" to provide at least some capability if a Pro series surface failed.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

About spare mixer vs. in situ servicing:

Most pro consoles are built to be serviced, they open fairly easily and stuff is accessible and replaceable without the requirement of lots of tools, soldering etc. Wind back a few years to the analog era, and most of us would have a couple of channel strips and a spare psu etc. in our toolbox, all quickly replaced.
Your average and maybe not so average MI desk require unscrewing a shitload of screws to get to an interior where hardly anything is field-replaceable, so opening up the desk isn't really much of a viable option, even for an experienced hardware repair wizzard.

Thus, carrying a spare is not only a question of cheap vs. expensive, but also a question of actual serviceability.

My setup when using the console have redundancy in that the X32Rack is already on stage and ready to take over on short notice should the console fail (only means I'll have to mix from PC instead of console). Should the X32Rack fail, I might need to run a 16/4 snake to FOH if my single S16 hasn't got enough inputs.

As for warranty, anything in the Behringer clauses might be overridden by laws in the country of purchase, and I think most countries for instance requires statuary warranty to be transferable.

 

[Ali Reay]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

Dear all,

Allow us to comment on the warranty policy.

It is common that manufacturers issue warranty exclusions in order to provide a reasonable balance between customer as well as manufacturer protection. Our warranty policies are publicly available and posted on our website www.music-group.com/warranty.

Warranty exclusions usually relate to wear and tear parts and in particular to electro-mechanical components. While we test those parts for extreme life-cycles at our factory, their life cycle very much depends on actual use and environment.

We receive products where customers complain about defective faders or pots. On inspection we often find excessive dust or liquid that was spilled into the faders, damaged VR’s or encoders where the shafts have been mechanically impacted or even sheared off and other damage that is clearly caused by improper handling, such as mechanical stress during transportation and that age-old issue of spilled drinks in the console. Of course such defects are not covered by any manufacturer and in order to avoid customer disputes, we exclude these parts in our warranty policies.

Similar to car breaks and tires, components’ life cycles very much depend on the customer usage.

Another example is LCD screens. These parts by nature will lose brightness and contrast over time and hence every LCD manufacturer will restrict its warranty. As these are components that are not made by our company, we have to limit the warranty to the original manufacturer’s warranty.

We fully stand behind our products and therefore believe we offer a generous 3-year warranty program. We encourage you to compare it with other competitors.

We will soon provide a video where we demonstrate a 1 million life cycle test of our fader in time-lapse mode.

Thanks Joe for your comments. It’s not that I don’t understand why warranties have limitations and exceptions but I have to ask myself why I thought I was covered when I wasn’t. I made an assumption that was wrong and feel it is in the way the warranty is presented that has caused the confusion.
There seems to be one limit too many. The one year warranty is called a Limited warranty but the limits in section 4.3 are also for one year i.e. the full term of the warranty. This limited warranty is now extended to three years so why would I not assume that the limits within are not also extended.
Supposing it was presented like this:


“Over and above our standard one year warranty Music Group are offering, free of charge, an extended three year Limited Warranty (see terms and conditions for limitations and exceptions)”


Here I can see that “Limited” is relating only to the three year warranty and I would be more inclined to check out the terms and conditions to see exactly what I’m getting free of charge.
I would also strongly suggest that the terms and conditions for the one and three years are separate and clearly marked. This would mean that section 4.3 appears only in the three year terms and conditions (you’ll notice that it has no relevance at all to the one year warranty).
I can see that giving an impression (all be it wrongly) that the three year warranty is a full extension would have advantages from a marketing point of view but that’s probably just me being a cynical old fool.

 

[Chris Wadden]

Re: X32 Warranty Warning

My setup when using the console have redundancy in that the X32Rack is already on stage and ready to take over on short notice should the console fail (only means I'll have to mix from PC instead of console). Should the X32Rack fail, I might need to run a 16/4 snake to FOH if my single S16 hasn't got enough inputs

That system combination may be the winner for best overall quality, reliability and cost-effectiveness.

 

[Simon Eves]

Multiple in-line FX on a single channel

There's a bit in my upcoming theatre production where a single character's mic needs some crazy vocal processing patching in for a few lines, interspersed with regular behaviour.

I'm wondering what the neatest way of achieving multiple FX units in-line on the same channel (probably something like a dual-pitch-shift to thicken the voice, stereo delay to bounce it around, and extra reverb).

Obviously the first effect can simply be made an insert on the channel, and I can put the insert on/off on a User Button. I guess I could put another one on an insert in a bus, and either control the insert the same way, or control the mute of that send.

Thoughts, please?

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Multiple in-line FX on a single channel

There's a bit in my upcoming theatre production where a single character's mic needs some crazy vocal processing patching in for a few lines, interspersed with regular behaviour.

I'm wondering what the neatest way of achieving multiple FX units in-line on the same channel (probably something like a dual-pitch-shift to thicken the voice, stereo delay to bounce it around, and extra reverb).

Obviously the first effect can simply be made an insert on the channel, and I can put the insert on/off on a User Button. I guess I could put another one on an insert in a bus, and either control the insert the same way, or control the mute of that send.

Thoughts, please?

Record it and play back as an FX cue.

 

[Dan McCoy]

2.0 update

2.0 update. So is there NO way to keep all the channel edits when upgrading to 2.0? I knew it blew away scenes but I didn't understand it wiped everything? I backed up the board, updated and it wiped it. I couldn't restore anything. I ended up downgrading back to 1.15 and restoring the main board scene... which worked flawlessly.

Gotta say the RTA superimposed on the EQ graph is brilliantly cool.

 

[Dan McCoy]

Re: Multiple in-line FX on a single channel

There's a bit in my upcoming theatre production where a single character's mic needs some crazy vocal processing patching in for a few lines, interspersed with regular behaviour.

I'm wondering what the neatest way of achieving multiple FX units in-line on the same channel (probably something like a dual-pitch-shift to thicken the voice, stereo delay to bounce it around, and extra reverb).

Obviously the first effect can simply be made an insert on the channel, and I can put the insert on/off on a User Button. I guess I could put another one on an insert in a bus, and either control the insert the same way, or control the mute of that send.

Thoughts, please?

setup a mute grp for those three fx and mute the mix busses (say 13-15) till you need it and then unmute.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: 2.0 update

2.0 update.

Not yet an update, it's beta and so has problems. It's promised that the actual 2.0 will keep existing scenes.