X32 Discussion

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dear Timmy and Dan,

Switching phantom power on/off on any number of active channels might introduce pops depending on the sources connected. What you should do is keeping the phantom power setup consistent in both scenes and only swap the input patching.

Please note, phantom power is a preamp property, not a channel property. Consequently, switching the channel patching by loading a scene does not alter the preamp's status. So, provided that both of your scenes have consistent phantom power settings, no pops will disturb your switching. That is why Christian recommended using the Setup/preamps page, for seeing all preamps in an overview--no matter, if they are connected to channels or not.

Cheers,
Jan

Hi Jan,

Keep in mind that he is not only switching scenes, but the contents of the preamps on the different S16's.

Are you and Christian saying that by turning on 48v in the Preamps page it will follow the S16 during Scene changes, so that Ch. 17-20 can be phantomed continuously on one S16 regardless of whether it's active or not, and changing to another S16 with phantom on Ch. 21-24 in another scene will allow its channels to remain continuously powered (after also going to the preamp page and activating those channels in that different scene)?

Or are you saying that all phantom powered channels on either S16 will need to be activated in the preamp page? So that, in this case, Ch. 17-24 on both S16's would remain powered all the time? The difference being that in one scene 17-20 are powered on that S16 and its contents while 21-24 are not, while on the other 17-20 are unpowered and 21-24 are.

This is good, I've said previously that I didn't understand the uses of the preamp page, and this is the third reason I've seen to go there (the first being the monitor/FOH split control in 2.02, and the second being overall preamp control while remaining in split mode).

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

How long is the switching time between scenes?

It seems instantaneous, for all intents and purposes.

The problem with the way you and I were doing it is the ramp-up of the phantom power, I think.

Christian and Jan's solution may be your answer.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

It should not really make a difference if you are using the preamp page to set up phantom as long as the setting that is arrived at is the same for all scenes.
If one starts out with setting the phantom and gains in scene 1 or 000 whatever the case might be, and don't touch these settings later, there shouldn't be an issue.
Building each scene individually, with phantom settings that only apply to that scene, and one is asking for trouble.

I prefer to be "disconnected" from the stage boxes, setting up with a "generic gain" at the boxes and using the trim at the console (I'm using S16+Rack on the stage). By doing it this way, I don't have gain changes between scenes, and don't get any zipper noise either when switching scenes with different gain settings (not that zipper noise is likely to be a problem between scenes, but anyway)

The important thing here is that all scenes should have the same phantom settings for the preamps. How that is achieved is of less importance, but starting out with a scene with all settings correct will make it so much easier.
Obviously, if one gets to scene 75 and decides to add another phantom mic at that point, correcting all previous scenes will be a pain in the butt, but there you go.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

It should not really make a difference if you are using the preamp page to set up phantom as long as the setting that is arrived at is the same for all scenes.

Actually, it does make a huge difference, and the recommendation to go to the preamp page to set phantoms was really brilliant.

Here's why:

When you use the channel strips to set the phantoms for any channel on the first of the S16's you're using, you are setting it in Ch. 17 (for example). When you switch over to the second S16 and set phantom on Ch. 17, the first S16's Ch. 17 phantom goes off because it's no longer connected to the console in that way.

When you use the preamp tab to set phantom (and trim, I guess), you are affecting Ch 17 on the first S16 but you are actually setting it on AES50A17. When you go to set it on the second S16, you are setting it on AES50A33, which is the brilliant part. You can set BOTH AES50A17 and AES50A33 to have phantom power, and they stay on regardless of which S16 is active.

This is especially important when you have disparate signals on different S16's like Timmy has.

I tried this and it worked awesomely.

Nice going, Christian and Jan.

Timmy, you have your no-cost solution.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: ESD

Hi All,

About a hundred pages ago I mentioned that a friend of mine had a Midas Pro 3 with stage box at his work, and that Midas had sold them UTP Cat cable for the interconnect. When we had the X32 issues with ESD (electrostatic discharge, what you get from static electricity) while using UTP but no issues with STP, two separate Midas company people who claimed to know told him that UTP works fine with Midas consoles and UTP was all they sold. There was no reason to use STP, they said.

Further discussion ensued here which I won't attempt to summarize, except to say that we heard from someone who might be knowledgable about such things that maybe Midas had never tested their products for ESD.

It will be worth noting that Midas does their interconnect differently than Behringer. You can have two parallel runs of CAT cable between the console and stage box, with one in use and one redundant, just in case. He thought there was an automatic switchover between them in case of a problem, but yesterday he tried pulling the active one and there was no auto-switch, he had to manually do it and it took a few seconds, about as long as it takes for the X32 and S16 to do their handshakes when first connected together. He swears he saw it auto-switch before, and thinks a menu setting may have gotten changed somehow but in two minutes of looking he couldn't find it.

FWIW it's a very pretty console.

Today we found time in the empty theater to connect up his system with the UTP (he had installed Ethercon-terminated STP in conduit for his install, and the reels of UTP were extra and unused), with the cable running down aisles. I took my sparker so we could zap it.

We had music going from the console to the stage box, and a Q-Box letting me monitor sound output at the stage while not endangering any speakers.

Sure enough, with only one run of UTP connected between console and stage box, it was easy to disrupt the signal with the UTP. Maybe not quite as easy as with the X32/S16, but not that much different, the music still went off. It definitely is disrupted more gracefully than the X32; there is no burst of white noise like there is with the X32, it is just quiet until the disruption passes. He said all the input meters maxed out during the disruption, but I didn't hear anything on the Q-Box.

Having the UTP as the active run and the STP as the run-in-waiting made no difference.

Having the STP as the active run and the UTP as the run-in-waiting took maybe a little longer to be disrupted, but was still eventually (5-10 zaps tops) disrupted.

Removing the UTP and having only the STP had no disruption no matter how many zaps, and the same with 2 STP runs connected.

Maybe this is not a problem because there is not a Midas thread on a forum that is anywhere near as active as this one? Maybe Midas people are luckier than their poor X32 cousins? I have no explanation why nobody's noticed this.

But there you are.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

When you use the channel strips to set the phantoms for any channel on the first of the S16's you're using, you are setting it in Ch. 17 (for example). When you switch over to the second S16 and set phantom on Ch. 17, the first S16's Ch. 17 phantom goes off because it's no longer connected to the console in that way.

The thing is, and I don't doubt that you are experiencing this, I have checked, and I don't get this behaviour.
When I set the phantom on A1-16, move to A17-32 or local 1-16, make settings there and go back, the settings are intact.
If I go into the preamp page, the settings tally with what I've set, and most importantly, nothing changes on the S16 when switching back and forth. Even if I turn off the console, the S16 phantom stays on.
Saving two scenes on the console and going back and forth, no change.
Loading show prepared in the exact same manner in X32-Edit, no change.

So what am I doing differently from you guys? or rather, if you don't mind me asking, are you guys doing wrong?
Anyone care to post a couple of scenes or a show where the problem manifests itself?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: ESD

Maybe this is not a problem because there is not a Midas thread on a forum that is anywhere near as active as this one? Maybe Midas people are luckier than their poor X32 cousins? I have no explanation why nobody's noticed this.

But there you are.

The thing is, Midas users are experiencing dropouts, and if Midas people claim otherwise they are either being devious or ignorant.

 

[Dirk Martens]

Re: ESD

Hi All,

About a hundred pages ago I mentioned that a friend of mine had a Midas Pro 3 with stage box at his work, and that Midas had sold them UTP Cat cable for the interconnect. When we had the X32 issues with ESD (electrostatic discharge, what you get from static electricity) while using UTP but no issues with STP, two separate Midas company people who claimed to know told him that UTP works fine with Midas consoles and UTP was all they sold. There was no reason to use STP, they said.

Well on AES50 you find that the Wordclock is transported on the empty pairs of the multi. Not on the regular 4 ethernet Pins. That means in return that on an aes50 multi all 8 pins of the multi need to work fine. otherwise you loose your wordclock every now and then.
This might be why your ethernet tester or laptop works happy with the cable, or even other desks. Anyway if you loose one of the pins you get clicks. and you can not find out with a normal ethernet tester. udp or stp has little to do with that. so when you tested you might just have a cable that transports all pins rather then one that doesn't. I have suffered this a lot with cheap cables that I got from Conrad.

 

[Jan Duwe]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dear Dan,

Per is right in saying that it does not matter which way you set the preamp up, using the channel strip buttons or using the Setup/preamps page. As I said before, the preamp gain and phantom power is a property of the preamp, not a property of the channel it is attached to. Which makes perfect sense, when you consider using the same preamp for feeding several channels.

The specific benefit of using the Setup/preamps page is that you can see all connected preamps, no matter if they are currently feeding a channel or not. When using the channel strip controls, you can obviously only access the preamp that is actually feeding that selected channel. However, the preamp settings will persist, unless they are (inadvertently) overwritten by some scene changes.

Dear Per,
Fyi, the V2.0 possibilities of Cues and Snippets, would allow you conveniently making a specific preamp change on top of an otherwise programmed show sequence.

Hope that helps.

Btw, I am glad Dan finally confirmed from practical experience, what I had stated a while ago about ESD influence, UTP/STP and Midas vs Behringer AES50 ~~:smile:

Best,
Jan

 

[Dan McCoy]

Re: ESD

Hi All,


Having the STP as the active run and the UTP as the run-in-waiting took maybe a little longer to be disrupted, but was still eventually (5-10 zaps tops) disrupted.

Removing the UTP and having only the STP had no disruption no matter how many zaps, and the same with 2 STP runs connected.


But there you are.

This is not surprising to me. In a former life, as an electrical engineer, I designed cockpits for a large defense aircraft company. EMI hardening was part of every design not just in the parts themselves meeting MIL spec but in the installation, wiring etc. Shielding, separation, bonding, (for various frequencies), lightning, etc. all entered into our process for both radiated and conducted emissions and susceptibility.

By having the UTP entering the box you are still providing a path for the EMI to enter. Protecting all the inputs is uber critical. Or leave your standby cold and don't plug it in. It's not in the active path so that's probably why it took longer influence it but it's still getting into the box and unless faraday caged internally is likely reradiating those conducted emissions internally.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dear Per,
Fyi, the V2.0 possibilities of Cues and Snippets, would allow you conveniently making a specific preamp change on top of an otherwise programmed show sequence.

Definitely, and for a small show, ie. less than 100 scenes traditional pre 2.0 style, it is fairly easy to repair any "defect" by adding a snippet to every cue, then cycling through the whole show, loading cues and saving the modified scenes to have updated scenes that can be used without the snippets. The same is of course the case with a cue and snippet programmed show, since the complication of introducing a new snippet is that one can't use two snippets in one cue, thus scene repair might be the way one have to go.
Load scene >> load repair snippet >> save scene == Very, very easy compared to before.
Earlier, if one were lucky, the parameter safes might fit the repairs, and one could repair a show by cycling through it with the safes on, saving each scene after it was loaded.

BTW: A function to modify all scenes with a specific snippet would be a good function to have on the console, or at least on the X-Edit.
I've made up a macro based excel to do this, but it is rather cumbersome.

 

[Timmy Liland]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

I had this show last year with only 8 wireless so I could choose between dynamic vocals or wireless. 8 channels no phantom, no problem.


This year it was more complex with 14 wireless, so originally I planned to have a submix for the strings, the drummer had his own submix
consisting of electric drums, perc mic, and a Mac with MIDI triggered software. That ment no phantom on ch 17-32.


The musical director wanted it more splitted up. That´s why the input list is a little messy.

I tried to upload a show file, but the upload manager sad invalid file.
I opened the same file in X32-edit without problems.

So I could have avoided all the pops by putting 48V on all the channels on S16-2 and S16-3?

I know why its called phantom power but I am not so shure I would connect 48V to all my wireless receivers.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dear Dan,

Per is right in saying that it does not matter which way you set the preamp up, using the channel strip buttons or using the Setup/preamps page.

Hi Jan,

It may be intellectually right but in practice on my console it makes a difference. Setting it up on channels causes the unused S16's phantom to disappear, setting it up on Preamps and being able to power channels on both S16's simultaneously as I described in the other post causes all powered channels to stay powered whether or not that S16 is active. From Timmy's response, I don't think he's catching this nuance either; there is no need to globally power all inputs on both S16's that you are switching between.

I believe I have some config parameters safe'd, and maybe that has something to do with it, but I've safe'd them for a reason (not wanting random BE files to change my routing to speakers) and therefore they will remain safe'd unless specifically needed to be unsafe'd.

The difference in the first paragraph here when phantom powering on my console with multiple S16's results in popping with one method and no popping in the other method, not theoretically but in show-level testing, meaning all devices set up as if at a show.

I'm glad I proved correct your idea that there should be STP used with Midas consoles as well as Behringer ones despite what other Midas people say and current Midas practice.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

The thing is, and I don't doubt that you are experiencing this, I have checked, and I don't get this behaviour.
When I set the phantom on A1-16, move to A17-32 or local 1-16, make settings there and go back, the settings are intact.

Hi Per,

Rereading this part, maybe the difference is what you mean when you say "I set the phantom on A1-16". What do you mean when you do that? My first scenario, which doesn't work, has me hitting the phantom physical switch on Ch. 1 with its Select button selected, and Routing selected from AES50A. The second has me setting it on AES50A1 in the preamps tab, where you have an option to set it in AES50A1, and/or Local 1, and/or AES50B1. You can pick one or you can pick all three together.

Picking within that scene the two that will be switched back and forth, whether or not the same channel, and saving that scene allows them to stay on continuously whether used in that scene or not.

Selecting from the channel button causes phantom to disappear when the other S16 is selected and reappear when the first S16 is selected the next time, resulting in the pop. At least in my testing.

Could the problem be that you are only using one S16 and trying to pretend it's two? And you saying that the settings are intact implies that you think I'm saying that the phantom settings disappear when going back to the original source from the second source, which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the phantom power activity disappears from the first S16 when switching to the second S16 and reappears only when the first one is selected again, when setting phantom power using the channel select and not the preamps page.

Dan

PS I got your PM and will reply later this afternoon or evening.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Hi Per,

Rereading this part, maybe the difference is what you mean when you say "I set the phantom on A1-16". What do you mean when you do that?

Having AES50 A1-16 selected in routing and working from the channel phantom switch on the console.

Could the problem be that you are only using one S16 and trying to pretend it's two? And you saying that the settings are intact implies that you think I'm saying that the phantom settings disappear when going back to the original source from the second source, which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying the phantom power activity disappears from the first S16 when switching to the second S16 and reappears only when the first one is selected again, when setting phantom power using the channel select and not the preamps page.

Yes, I've only got the one, so the extra are virtual, and that could make a difference, and if so, then there is a bug that should be addressed.

When I say the settings are intact, I refer to everywhere those settings appear, in the channel view, in the preamps view and on the S16, and indeed on the back of the X32.
The funny part, and where there must be a serious bug, is that if you set it with the channel button, it appears in the preamps view and is indiscernible from the same setting made in the preamps view. If there is a different behaviour and absolutely no indication that anything is different, then that is definite bug territory.
You mention that there are safes in operation, I just wonder if possibly those safes could by some weird interaction cause the difference between setting from channel view and setting from preamps view?
Me perplexed :?: :blush:

 

[Timmy Liland]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Timmy, you have your no-cost solution.


I knew there would be a solution. ~:-D~:grin: Thanks a lot!!

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

Yes, I've only got the one, so the extra are virtual, and that could make a difference, and if so, then there is a bug that should be addressed.

That seems to me to be substantively different. Having the two source choices on the same AES port is not the same as having one internal and one on an AES port or having one real and one virtual.

My money is on that being the difference between us, since Timmy's and my setups responded the same. It doesn't seem like sharing the show files would be enlightening if the hardware is not the same.

It's a fine but real nuance.

Based on past experience, I won't rule out that I'm doing something wrong, but the results are consistent and two people are getting the same result (presuming that Timmy implements the option that works for me when using the same equipment).

The other reason to do it the way Jan and Christian suggested, perhaps without knowing what they were suggesting (based on Jan's last note), rather than globally phantom-powering everything if the phantom channels do not line up 1:1 on the two S16's, is what Timmy said about not putting phantom on the wireless receivers.

I've long heard but never experienced that some receivers will blow up if you put phantom power on their XLR outputs. That never made sense to me, but I do try to avoid it when possible.

In the same way, it has never made sense that phantom powering a mic transformer somehow changes it forever and that change is audible. Although I've been listening carefully to pretty high resolution PA's for quite some time, I've never claimed to have golden ears. Any tiny differences in mic quality from one individual to the next are either clearly a result of capsule damage, or are lost in the uncontrolled environments that I am always in, where tens or hundreds of other factors have much more influence on how it sounds than those tiny differences. Cables fall into the same category, afaic.

/Rant.

Maybe I'll go back to lurking for a while. This has been a lot of posts from me.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

I've long heard but never experienced that some receivers will blow up if you put phantom power on their XLR outputs. That never made sense to me, but I do try to avoid it when possible.

/Rant.

Maybe I'll go back to lurking for a while. This has been a lot of posts from me.

Stay with it, Dan. You've been a tremendous resource on the X32 (along with your previous contributions over the years at Live Audio Board).

I've never seen a wireless mic receiver blow up, but I've heard clicks, pops and ticks from phantom power. The cause was output capacitors in the receiver being charged by the +48, then giving an audible POP or click when they discharge. Some brands were more affected than others and most recent vintage systems have different output sections that can take the +48 without audible artifact or damage.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

The other reason to do it the way Jan and Christian suggested, perhaps without knowing what they were suggesting (based on Jan's last note), rather than globally phantom-powering everything if the phantom channels do not line up 1:1 on the two S16's, is what Timmy said about not putting phantom on the wireless receivers.

I've long heard but never experienced that some receivers will blow up if you put phantom power on their XLR outputs. That never made sense to me, but I do try to avoid it when possible.

Global phantom is a really bad idea if for no other reason that such a thing would be an absolute and unconditional capitulation.

Maybe I'll go back to lurking for a while.This has been a lot of posts from me.

Please keep it up, much more interesting when you're around

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: S16 and phantom pops

I've never seen a wireless mic receiver blow up, but I've heard clicks, pops and ticks from phantom power. The cause was output capacitors in the receiver being charged by the +48, then giving an audible POP or click when they discharge. Some brands were more affected than others and most recent vintage systems have different output sections that can take the +48 without audible artifact or damage.

Global phantom is a really bad idea if for no other reason that such a thing would be an absolute and unconditional capitulation.

I have and have had a number of consoles where global phantom is the only choice, and while objecting intellectually to using same, never heard an issue from it that I can recall.

Is there an audible penalty for capitulating and getting the job done? My whole argument for several pages is that there is no need to capitulate, that there is a way to keep intellectually pure and only power the things that need powering. The other side of the argument seems to be that what is happening (depowering of phantom in scene-unused S16's and then repowering when selected) is not actually happening when powering them from the channel strips and not the preamp page. Yet I'm not opposed to capitulating when that is truly the only option.

Stay with it, Dan. You've been a tremendous resource on the X32 (along with your previous contributions over the years at Live Audio Board).

Please keep it up, much more interesting when you're around

Forgive me for implying that I was tired of this somehow. My intent was to provide hope for those who aren't interested in what I find fascinating and write at length about since I'm incapable of summarizing in 20 words or less a concept and sequence of events that all need to be described and explained to get the point across. 8 posts by me on this page alone seemed like it could be seen as excessive. I think it's excessive, but sometimes there's a lot to say and other times not much.

Am I the only one who likes giving and receiving "likes"? I feel like the recent string of posts has broken new ground and/or confirmed what was only suspected or thought of in another way, and until these quotes and Timmy's thanks it almost didn't seem like anyone was noticing.

Some hyperbole there, agreed.

It's always nice interacting with you guys. I'm always impressed with how Per can figure out what's going on and what's causing it from reading a description, and how Tim keeps it real, not to mention Robert, Timo, Christian, Eric, John D, Joe, Evan, and a ton of other people who I'm now offending by not mentioning their names. And it's always electrifying when Uli pops in and it's clear that he's keeping up with the discussions. And it never fails to amaze that we are all over the world and fascinated by the same thing.

Enough.

Thanks,
Dan