X32 Discussion

Re: S16 and phantom pops

That said and i appreciate Dan's posts as well,

The one thing that surely can brake from phantom power and if you use a faulty cable is sure to brake are ribbon microphones. I actually use those live so please no global phantom power!

Misja
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

This has been a very enlightening and thought provoking discussion, many thanks to everyone for intelligently debating a practise that most of us blindly adhere to out of tradition.

I think there is a tendency to believe that if we didn't need to pay lots of attention to phantom power then why would the manufacturers spend money putting switches on the boards? Of course, anyone building a console that didn't have switched phantom power wouldn't sell any, so that answers that question....

At risk of prolonging the discussion, what are the experiences with ribbon mics and phantom power?
There does seem to be a case to be made for not having phantom power on ribbon mics, mostly while plugging them in, unplugging them, and patching them. The reason given, is that its possible for the cable/patch bay to briefly put phantom power on the wrong pins and so destroy the ribbon.
I have read that, except for some rare, vintage, center tapped transformer coupled ribbon mics, (like, we all have a few of those to use with our X32's), phantom power is said to not damage ribbon mics on its own. It needs help in the form of a TRS patch bay, or something else like an xlr cable miswired or with certain pins slightly longer than others. Apparently, its the power finding an alternate path that can kill them.

The only other thing with leaving phantom on, is the loud bangs and pops when plugging anything into the inputs without the inputs muted. Of course that's a bad thing anyway.
Anyone in the room who has never done this, put your hand up.... I thought so... :) Just about the same number that have never accidentally left the phantom on when not needed, or forgot to turn it on when it was, adjusted the eq when its bypassed, etc... :)

Neat trick with setting phantom in the pre-amp pages independent of the control surface settings. That's ingenious.

Christopher

Edit: I was typing this when Misja posted about ribbon mics, similar thoughts at similar times...
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Thanks to all the likers for agreeing with me that 8 lengthy posts per page is excessive. :razz:

I'm also glad that the red herring of phantom powering RF receivers is discussable; I have pretty much said all I know about it, though.

On-topic, Per has shown me off-line that there is another way to maintain phantom on the separate S16's of Timmy's example, but I'll argue when/if he posts it that the methodology is too complex and it's much simpler to do it in the preamps page, especially when the sources are completely uncorrelated as they are in Timmy's case and in my earlier use of 3 S16's on a single AES50 connection.

This was a reasonable length post.

Dan
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dan Mortensen said:
Thanks to all the likers for agreeing with me that 8 lengthy posts per page is excessive. :razz:

I'm also glad that the red herring of phantom powering RF receivers is discussable; I have pretty much said all I know about it, though.

On-topic, Per has shown me off-line that there is another way to maintain phantom on the separate S16's of Timmy's example, but I'll argue when/if he posts it that the methodology is too complex and it's much simpler to do it in the preamps page, especially when the sources are completely uncorrelated as they are in Timmy's case and in my earlier use of 3 S16's on a single AES50 connection.

This was a reasonable length post.

Dan
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, the AES50 B connection remains without friends or even an S16 to hook up with. :cool:
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

At the risk of being tedious ( I realize that I passed that point a long time ago.)

1. It doesn't matter whether the phantom is set from the channel button or the preamp page, it works the same.
I'm not implying that one should not use the preamp page, it is the easiest way of avoiding confusion.
However, it has been argued that using the preamp page somehow solves a technical issue with switching between different S16s, but nobody has offered any actual evidence of this.

2. The important issue for avoiding phantom pops is to have the same preamp phantom setting in every scene.
In order to avoid confusion, and to check that there is consistency between every scene, is to use the preamp view, but there is no technical requirement to do this, the important issue is that phantom settings for all preamps remain unchanged from scene to scene.

We might have different opinions on how best to program a show, and to each his own. I have not given a method for doing this, but what I might suggest is to start off with a basic scene that at least contains the correct phantom settings for every input, local or S16, and use this scene as basis for every scene to be programmed.

Again, the important issue is that every scene has the same preamp phantom settings.
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Per Søvik said:
1. It doesn't matter whether the phantom is set from the channel button or the preamp page, it works the same.
I'm not implying that one should not use the preamp page, it is the easiest way of avoiding confusion.
However, it has been argued that using the preamp page somehow solves a technical issue with switching between different S16s, but nobody has offered any actual evidence of this.
Click to expand...

The only evidence I have is how it works or doesn't work when I do it, and you're right, it is tedious to explain. In fact, it's so tedious, and I think the interested parties are so few, that someone else with 3 S16's connected can take over the explanations.

I feel like the Preamps page solution is easy and straightforward to comprehend, while using the in-channel phantom button to set phantom on both the active and inactive S16's is confusing for me and seems like it will make needless work when the 2 S16's have totally different names and settings. It's nice that there's a second way, and anyone needing that function can make their own decision of how to get there, knowing there are two possibilities which will work and that the X32 system is just that much more flexible.

I had to be gone today (using my Rack to provide sound for this meeting The Pacific Northwest Section of the Audio Engineering Society - Devoted to the Art and Science of Audio ), and feel in my rush to post before leaving that I put you in an awkward position with my earlier post, and I apologize for that. I realize you are not advocating any position over another, but merely stating how it can be done and what needs to be done to accomplish the task. I am saying that one method fits my workflow better than the other, but others can choose their own way and decide which is more intuitive for them.

Thanks,
Dan
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dan Mortensen said:
The only evidence I have is how it works or doesn't work when I do it, and you're right, it is tedious to explain. In fact, it's so tedious, and I think the interested parties are so few, that someone else with 3 S16's connected can take over the explanations.
Click to expand...
If channel 1 is sourced from input 1 on first S16, you turn on phantom in channel view, then source from input 1 on second S16 and turn on phantom, will not phantom stay on in both S16? I say, "yes it will", Jan says "yes it will".
Nobody has offered any evidence that it won't when phantom is actually turned on for both S16, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about having to turn phantom on in both routings.
All evidence indicates that when it is done correctly, it works as expected, and when it is done wrong it malfunctions as expected, and there is no quirk that only manifests itself when more S16s are connected.
I identified the problem in the original poster's showfile, and the problem was that the phantom wasn't selected to be on in other scenes than the ones where the S16 in question were in use. This has nothing to do with how many S16 are connected, but everything to do with making sure that phantom is selected to be on in all the scenes, no matter if the S16 is being used in that scene or not. So just in case someone hasn't got it yet, I'll repeat it once more and emphasize that this is what is important and what one needs to be focused on, and that questions of workflow etc. are secondary to what needs to be the ultimate focus.

A PHYSICAL INPUT USING PHANTOM NEEDS TO HAVE THE PHANTOM TURNED ON IN ALL SCENES!

I feel like the Preamps page solution is easy and straightforward to comprehend, while using the in-channel phantom button to set phantom on both the active and inactive S16's is confusing for me and seems like it will make needless work when the 2 S16's have totally different names and settings. It's nice that there's a second way, and anyone needing that function can make their own decision of how to get there, knowing there are two possibilities which will work and that the X32 system is just that much more flexible.
Click to expand...
That is fine as long as we can agree on the slowly emerging fact that there is no technical issue that necessitates a particular workflow, and that the X32 works correctly when the settings are right irrespective of what view the settings are set in, as long as they are the correct settings.

I had to be gone today (using my Rack to provide sound for this meeting The Pacific Northwest Section of the Audio Engineering Society - Devoted to the Art and Science of Audio ), and feel in my rush to post before leaving that I put you in an awkward position with my earlier post, and I apologize for that. I realize you are not advocating any position over another, but merely stating how it can be done and what needs to be done to accomplish the task. I am saying that one method fits my workflow better than the other, but others can choose their own way and decide which is more intuitive for them.
Click to expand...
Then we agree :)~:)~:smile:
I feel confident that the OP's problem has been identified and the OP informed about the cause of his problem, and I'm equally confident that there are no particular technical issues with the way the X32 handles multiple S16, so I'm happy.
Case closed (hopefully)
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Per Søvik said:
If channel 1 is sourced from input 1 on first S16, you turn on phantom in channel view, then source from input 1 on second S16 and turn on phantom, will not phantom stay on in both S16? I say, "yes it will", Jan says "yes it will".
Nobody has offered any evidence that it won't when phantom is actually turned on for both S16, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about having to turn phantom on in both routings.
All evidence indicates that when it is done correctly, it works as expected, and when it is done wrong it malfunctions as expected, and there is no quirk that only manifests itself when more S16s are connected.
I identified the problem in the original poster's showfile, and the problem was that the phantom wasn't selected to be on in other scenes than the ones where the S16 in question were in use. This has nothing to do with how many S16 are connected, but everything to do with making sure that phantom is selected to be on in all the scenes, no matter if the S16 is being used in that scene or not. So just in case someone hasn't got it yet, I'll repeat it once more and emphasize that this is what is important and what one needs to be focused on, and that questions of workflow etc. are secondary to what needs to be the ultimate focus.

A PHYSICAL INPUT USING PHANTOM NEEDS TO HAVE THE PHANTOM TURNED ON IN ALL SCENES!


That is fine as long as we can agree on the slowly emerging fact that there is no technical issue that necessitates a particular workflow, and that the X32 works correctly when the settings are right irrespective of what view the settings are set in, as long as they are the correct settings.


Then we agree :)~:)~:smile:
I feel confident that the OP's problem has been identified and the OP informed about the cause of his problem, and I'm equally confident that there are no particular technical issues with the way the X32 handles multiple S16, so I'm happy.
Case closed (hopefully)
Click to expand...

In my experience having 3 S16's connected in series and switching Routing between the last two:

1: Using the channel phantom switch, taking a random scene and p-powering several channels and saving the scene;

2: Keeping that same scene and then changing the routing of Inputs 17-32 over to the third S16, all phantom lights disappear from the second S16. P-power up several channels in the new routing, save scene.

3: Switch scenes back and forth, phantom power goes on and off as appropriate for each scene. Pops.

4: Take same scene, go into Preamps page to set phantom in both scenes (separately) so that all phantomed channels in EACH scene are separately phantomed within each scene, but not globally.

5: Switch scenes back and forth, phantom stays on in each S16 regardless of whether selected or not. No pops when switching scene with inputs open.

In theory your description works, in practice I couldn't get it to do so, although I haven't tried again since finding the preamp-page solution. And, clearly, my explanations have been lacking clarity. There was never an argument that the phantoms didn't need to remain on, the question was how to do so in reality rather than theory. As Tim mentions above obliquely, another way to do it may be to have the third S16 connect to B, but I haven't tried that, and it involves another CAT run which the OP may not have had available.

Dan
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dan Mortensen said:
In my experience having 3 S16's connected in series and switching Routing between the last two:

1: Using the channel phantom switch, taking a random scene and p-powering several channels and saving the scene;

2: Keeping that same scene and then changing the routing of Inputs 17-32 over to the third S16, all phantom lights disappear from the second S16. P-power up several channels in the new routing, save scene.

3: Switch scenes back and forth, phantom power goes on and off as appropriate for each scene. Pops.

4: Take same scene, go into Preamps page to set phantom in both scenes (separately) so that all phantomed channels in EACH scene are separately phantomed within each scene, but not globally.

5: Switch scenes back and forth, phantom stays on in each S16 regardless of whether selected or not. No pops when switching scene with inputs open.
Click to expand...

If indeed it is the case that changing the routing from from presumably AES50 A17-32 to AES50 A33-48 as source for channels 17 -32, with no other action involved, disengages the phantom on the second S16 (AES50 A17-32), than that clearly is a bug that needs to be addressed.

A slightly different wording in our private exchange left me with the impression that the chain of events in your test was slightly different, sorry.


- The preamp page controls 128 possible preamps, all of these settings are saved in the last section of the scene file.
- When preparing a scene and addressing these preamps, irrespective of whether one is using the preamps page or the channel settings, the scene file generated is exactly the same.
- When setting the the phantom from the channel view or using the phantom button on the surface, the phantom is also on in the preamps view.

If any of this changes when connecting extra S16s, as opposed to virtual S16s, then there clearly must be a bug that needs to be addressed.

In theory your description works, in practice I couldn't get it to do so, although I haven't tried again since finding the preamp-page solution. And, clearly, my explanations have been lacking clarity. There was never an argument that the phantoms didn't need to remain on, the question was how to do so in reality rather than theory. As Tim mentions above obliquely, another way to do it may be to have the third S16 connect to B, but I haven't tried that, and it involves another CAT run which the OP may not have had available.
Click to expand...

If for some inexplicable reason phantom needs to be set from the preamps page to be stable, I'm quite happy to do so, and running a second CAT to avoid going into the preamps page surely seems a bit excessive.

Let's document the bug if there is one, and move on
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Per Søvik said:
If indeed it is the case that changing the routing from from presumably AES50 A17-32 to AES50 A33-48 as source for channels 17 -32, with no other action involved, disengages the phantom on the second S16 (AES50 A17-32), than that clearly is a bug that needs to be addressed.

SNIP

Let's document the bug if there is one, and move on
Click to expand...

I don't know what else to do on my end, it seems like someone else with 3 S16's needs to connect up and confirm or disprove. It wouldn't surprise me that there's something I'm missing, since it happens so often, but I feel I'm reporting what I saw.

I wonder how much of the population of X32 owners/users even have access to 3 S16's, and use them this way? Does this apply to anyone besides me and Timmy, or is it a larger group than I think?
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Dan Mortensen said:
I don't know what else to do on my end, it seems like someone else with 3 S16's needs to connect up and confirm or disprove. It wouldn't surprise me that there's something I'm missing, since it happens so often, but I feel I'm reporting what I saw.

I wonder how much of the population of X32 owners/users even have access to 3 S16's, and use them this way? Does this apply to anyone besides me and Timmy, or is it a larger group than I think?
Click to expand...

I'm sure one of the Behringer guys have picked up on this, it's hard to follow this topic and miss this one :razz:
I'm sure they can verify it and investigate the underlying technical reasons.

I'd be surprised if there are only two users that connect three or more S16 to the console given the sheer number of users.
 
Re: S16 and phantom pops

Thanks a lot for your help, gentlemen!

While we are waiting for Behringers official solution,
I will do some tests to find my own way around this.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Tim McCulloch said:
Why? The mythical "midas preamp"? Buy an M-32. The only reason to wait for the DL15x is the name.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine with a Pro 2C and the DL251 just brought the Core unit and hooked it up with the 251 and he said the sound was damn near as good as it was with the Pro 2. Now he has a backup for less than $800. I will be doing a show or two with that setup and I can't wait to hear it.
 
Dante Card & MIDI

G'day All,

I'm thinking about replacing the flaky firewire card with Dante - One question though - Can I still get MIDI from it to control my DAW?

Thanks
Pauly
 
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