X32 Discussion

[Cesare Bezzi]

Re: Safe Recall Bug in 2.04?

Was this the Vintage Room Reverb by any chance?

Slot 1 - Ch13 had Plate Rev
Slot 2 - Ch14 had Vintage Rev (not the Vintage Room)
Slot 3 - Ch15 had St. Delay
Slot 4 - Ch16 had St. Flanger
The unwanted send was definitely Vintage Rev or a combination of Vintage Rev and Plate Rev. More weird the temporary send was either at a very high level (0dB) or with long tail (longer than the slot current settings).

Just thinking if in recalling scenes converted from 1.15, some bits go to the wrong places in the board memory and rewritten correctly in the following "mem refresh" (2-3 minutes?).

Considering I'm not the only/first one getting this evolutionary behaviour of 2.04, I assume Behringer engineering is looking into this and will provide explanation or fix soon.

The reported connection instability of PC/Mac versions of X32-Edit are more of a problem, making the app basically unusable. It disconnected 3 times during sound check. I just gave up and closed it.
cheers

 

[Nick Sheridan]

Re: Safe Recall Bug in 2.04?

The reported connection instability of PC/Mac versions of X32-Edit are more of a problem, making the app basically unusable. It disconnected 3 times during sound check. I just gave up and closed it.
cheers

I had the same proble on a 3 day festival last weekend. X Edit on Mac reguarly disconnected or meters froze. On 2.04. Never had this problem prior to version 2.

 

[Branson Sagear]

Re: Safe Recall Bug in 2.04?

Perhaps the vintage room effect is doing an excellent job of emulating the old AMS RMX16s? Man, did those things have some weird ghosts in them...

I finally mixed on an x32 with the new firmware, and I have to admit that there seems to be some cool new stuff going on. I do have a couple of questions that hopefully you guys can help me with. (Maybe they were already answered... It's a huge thread...)

1. Can the RTA display be turned off? While a cool feature, I just find it a bit distracting. The tech and I were digging around in the settings for a bit and we found where to DIM the rta, but not a setting to turn it off. The dancing blue dot on the dynamics graph was a very nice touch!

2. Tap tempo doesn't seem to work right to me. Is there some weird averaging going on? I tapped out an 8 count and within another 8 counts the delay time was never right. It is always a bit slow or a bit fast. (It's not muso performance related; it was the same with gridded recordings) On a TC D2 I can tap out an 8 count and the tempo damn near locks in perfectly and doesn't drift at all for a whole song. Any preferences I should look for the next time I see an x32?

3. Sticky buttons. I don't own an x32, but a few that I've worked on had buttons that were un-usable. They stayed in the depressed state. The techs claimed that they've never had a problem with them, but I just can't believe that... The user defined keys, the mutes, and the channel select buttons were terrible. I had to slowly rock a couple of mutes back and forth very slowly to get them to pop back up. I'm not going to spray stuff into a console that is not mine, but would something like a silicone spray help with this?

Thanks guys!

 

[Henry Klein]

Re: Safe Recall Bug in 2.04?

I had the same proble on a 3 day festival last weekend. X Edit on Mac reguarly disconnected or meters froze. On 2.04. Never had this problem prior to version 2.

Same here during the last gigs. Both Mac and Ipad 4 lost connection lots of time while Wifi was fully stable and only my 2 devices connected. Never had this happen with earlier version. And - to be serious - that is a real PITA. Hope someone from Behringer listens and these things will be fixed asap.

Henry

 

[John Chiara]

Re: Safe Recall Bug in 2.04?

I agree that the tap tempo setup sucks. Don't average just use what I tap in NOW.
REALLY a PITA when on the iPad app. Freezes my whole mixing waiting to correct a tap.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: CARE TEAM - need help. Audio Dropouts on AES50

I"ve tried multiple cables. I am not sure that is the case.

Long shot but this can happen with any shielded cable. Sorry if you knew most of this already. It is just how I would trouble shoot an intermittent connection.

Check the power source for the Rack and the Console. If not on the same power supply, or worse yet on 2 different UPS systems even if on the same power phase there will be a difference in phase.

Like any ground loop the shield of the cat5/6 should be lifted at one end. Since the signal is bi-directional does not mater what end is lifted. Moving the cable should still be avoided. Any cable with that high of freq. running on it is like an antenna for magnetic fields to induce or interrupt a signal.

One more thing to check is to be sure the cable run is 12 inches from anything and crosses other cables at 90 degrees.
Make sure it is far away from modern florescent fixtures.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: CARE TEAM - need help. Audio Dropouts on AES50

Long shot but this can happen with any shielded cable. Sorry if you knew most of this already. It is just how I would trouble shoot an intermittent connection. Check the power source for the Rack and the Console. If not on the same power supply, or worse yet on 2 different UPS systems even if on the same power phase there will be a difference in phase. Like any ground loop the shield of the cat5/6 should be lifted at one end. Since the signal is bi-directional does not mater what end is lifted. Moving the cable should still be avoided. Any cable with that high of freq. running on it is like an antenna for magnetic fields to induce or interrupt a signal. One more thing to check is to be sure the cable run is 12 inches from anything and crosses other cables at 90 degrees.Make sure it is far away from modern florescent fixtures.

Although I don't really want to start a fight, every single thing in this post is wrong IMHO.

Check the power source for the Rack and the Console. If not on the same power supply, or worse yet on 2 different UPS systems even if on the same power phase there will be a difference in phase.

Phase schmase. Having the PA across several phases of the same supply with the same ground has no effect on modern equipment. Having different ground references can have an effect, but that's not what you're saying.

Like any ground loop the shield of the cat5/6 should be lifted at one end. Since the signal is bi-directional does not mater what end is lifted. Moving the cable should still be avoided. Any cable with that high of freq. running on it is like an antenna for magnetic fields to induce or interrupt a signal.

This is exactly wrong, because the shield's purpose is to protect the cable innards from Electro Static Discharge, which can happen on either end of the cable. If you have your stage and FOH devices on the same ground reference, ground loops will not occur but ESD will, eventually. Brian Wynn showed conclusively in November 2013 that both shield ends need to be connected, and I have replicated his results.

All bets are off if your two devices have vastly different ground references. I don't know what will happen then.

One more thing to check is to be sure the cable run is 12 inches from anything and crosses other cables at 90 degrees.

I know already you really don't mean "anything" like floors or walls or children, but rather sources of possible interference. Our Audio over Ethernet cable workshop showed that UTP is immune to interference, and Brian showed that STP makes the connection immune from ESD interference, which is magnitudes greater than induced interference. Or at least lots greater.

The 90 degree thing would be good advice if there was a problem with electrical fields from the other cables, but I don't believe there is in this case.

Make sure it is far away from modern florescent fixtures.

See above.

Mr. McCoy clearly has a problem, but none of this "advice" is going to be helpful to him. Sorry to burst your balloon. And I'm always ready to be proven wrong, but this seems pretty clearcut. There are still mysteries, though....

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: CARE TEAM - need help. Audio Dropouts on AES50

Although I don't really want to start a fight, every single thing in this post is wrong IMHO.



Phase schmase. Having the PA across several phases of the same supply with the same ground has no effect on modern equipment. Having different ground references can have an effect, but that's not what you're saying.



This is exactly wrong, because the shield's purpose is to protect the cable innards from Electro Static Discharge, which can happen on either end of the cable. If you have your stage and FOH devices on the same ground reference, ground loops will not occur but ESD will, eventually. Brian Wynn showed conclusively in November 2013 that both shield ends need to be connected, and I have replicated his results.

All bets are off if your two devices have vastly different ground references. I don't know what will happen then.



I know already you really don't mean "anything" like floors or walls or children, but rather sources of possible interference. Our Audio over Ethernet cable workshop showed that UTP is immune to interference, and Brian showed that STP makes the connection immune from ESD interference, which is magnitudes greater than induced interference. Or at least lots greater.

The 90 degree thing would be good advice if there was a problem with electrical fields from the other cables, but I don't believe there is in this case.



See above.

Mr. McCoy clearly has a problem, but none of this "advice" is going to be helpful to him. Sorry to burst your balloon. And I'm always ready to be proven wrong, but this seems pretty clearcut. There are still mysteries, though....

Thanks for your expert opinion. I will wait to see if he finds the issue and correct every ounce of my life experiances with very large networks and data transfer of just about everything on the planet except some military and space program data systems.

It is ok to rely on the basics you have learned in text books. The shield can create data transfer issues in real life, but if your book says that go ahead and forget about trying to get to the root of a problem. You are right about the shield being for ESD, I am talking EMF. And yes it can cause a dropout. For real in a real installation, not in a book. I have seen packet loss and the TDR meter changes as the cable is moved. These are $25k and about $10k meters. What do you use?


Power issues are a long shot, but again, I have seen it in the real world. Modern equipment is not all made the same and some take short cuts that include faulty isolation. Just saying, the stuff isn't all perfect like your Advice is. The poor guy should just give up and update his drivers and make sure the power light is on.

I forgot to ask Mr. McCoy, but is the network cable in conduit or cable tray?
start simple, use a coupler with a short unshielded patch cable at one end or do nothing like the upper expert suggested.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: CARE TEAM - need help. Audio Dropouts on AES50

Thanks for your expert opinion. I will wait to see if he finds the issue and correct every ounce of my life experiances with very large networks and data transfer of just about everything on the planet except some military and space program data systems.

It is ok to rely on the basics you have learned in text books. The shield can create data transfer issues in real life, but if your book says that go ahead and forget about trying to get to the root of a problem. You are right about the shield being for ESD, I am talking EMF. And yes it can cause a dropout. For real in a real installation, not in a book. I have seen packet loss and the TDR meter changes as the cable is moved. These are $25k and about $10k meters. What do you use?


Power issues are a long shot, but again, I have seen it in the real world. Modern equipment is not all made the same and some take short cuts that include faulty isolation. Just saying, the stuff isn't all perfect like your Advice is. The poor guy should just give up and update his drivers and make sure the power light is on.

I forgot to ask Mr. McCoy, but is the network cable in conduit or cable tray?
start simple, use a coupler with a short unshielded patch cable at one end or do nothing like the upper expert suggested.

I suggest you search for Dan's posts regarding ESD, Brian Wynn's posts and video, and the Pacific Northwest Audio Engineering Society chapter's experiments where some of this was evaluated, replicated, and corrected.

Do not presume that you are being challenged unduly.

 

[Pauly Mel]

Advice please - How to setup studio monitors without the dreaded whine

Hi All,

I'm not sure how to get this done so I throw myself at your mercy;

I am sick to death of hearing that terrible whine that plagues the monitor and headphone outputs of the X32 and _think_ I may be able to get around it by monitoring from the output busses instead of the monitor out.

So... I'd like to run (say) 2 pairs of studio monitors - Some accurate mid fields and some 'fun' Larger monitors from the x32 using 2 bus outs for each.. so lets say I want monitor set 1 to be routed to bus 13 & 14, and monitor set 2 routed to bus 15 & 16.

Of course this is in a studio, not a live setup.

Is it possible to do that while still using the main fader as the overall monitor level, and still have solo capability? If so, how?

Thanks for any guidelines on this - I know I'll still have the whine in the headphones but I have a bunch of S16s so I'm happy to use one of them for monitoring as well.

[edit] I should add that currently I am just using the monitor outputs parallel to each set of monitors and use the power amp for each set to dictate which I'm listening to.
Pauly

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: CARE TEAM - need help. Audio Dropouts on AES50

It is ok to rely on the basics you have learned in text books.....

I have seen packet loss and the TDR meter changes as the cable is moved. These are $25k and about $10k meters. What do you use?

What I think I know is sourced from exactly what Tim calls out. I have exactly no knowledge from text books or physics classes. 15 months ago I knew precisely zero about the subject, and what I think I know now disagrees with your earlier post.

I believe the second quoted point above (electrical change with cable movement), but you didn't mention it in your earlier post, and that is the problem that Dan Mc is having now and which I went looking to solve at my workshop a year ago. That problem seems to have nothing to do with anything you mentioned in the earlier post.

The only meter I had available was not relevant to this problem, the Fluke DTX-1800, which was something like $10-20k, depending on accessories. It only did static tests and could tell us nothing about the conditions within moving cables or the specifically the interaction between moving pairs within a cable. (It was generously loaned to me by Fluke to prepare for my workshop and I don't have it any more although I wish I did.)

None of the Fluke guys (who I asked my Fluke guy to ask) could name a meter that would measure changing conditions in real time; what do you use for that, which lets you see the changing conditions between pairs within a dynamically changing cable? It seemed like there must be something, but people who knew a lot more about the subject than me said there wasn't such a thing and I was forced to believe them.

Answering that question would advance this discussion a lot.

Like I said, I'm not trying to start a fight but to find out the truth, and I didn't feel anything in your earlier post was useful for Dan Mc's point and my earlier looks into a similar situation.

I won't question that you have much more experience in networking than I, since that is easy to do, but apparently I have much more in X32 and SuperMac networking than you. Obviously, I don't have all the answers, either.

 

[Dan Mortensen]

Re: Advice please - How to setup studio monitors without the dreaded whine

Hi All,

I'm not sure how to get this done so I throw myself at your mercy;

I am sick to death of hearing that terrible whine that plagues the monitor and headphone outputs of the X32 and _think_ I may be able to get around it by monitoring from the output busses instead of the monitor out.

So... I'd like to run (say) 2 pairs of studio monitors - Some accurate mid fields and some 'fun' Larger monitors from the x32 using 2 bus outs for each.. so lets say I want monitor set 1 to be routed to bus 13 & 14, and monitor set 2 routed to bus 15 & 16.

Of course this is in a studio, not a live setup.

Is it possible to do that while still using the main fader as the overall monitor level, and still have solo capability? If so, how?

Thanks for any guidelines on this - I know I'll still have the whine in the headphones but I have a bunch of S16s so I'm happy to use one of them for monitoring as well.

[edit] I should add that currently I am just using the monitor outputs parallel to each set of monitors and use the power amp for each set to dictate which I'm listening to.
Pauly

If I understand what you want correctly, you just source the outputs from the Mon L/Mon R in Routing. That's how we treat the Listen wedge for monitor world.

The whine is in the Monitor XLR's and the headphone jacks, not in the Monitor circuit. HTH.

 

[Jan Duwe]

Re: X32 Discussion

Dear all,

Just to let you know that we are busy testing a small incremental update of fw 2.05 with X32-Edit 2.01. We have taken a closer look on the sync process between both (console and app), and were able to speed it up considerably. Also recalling scenes from X32-Edit now is much faster. We also included support for the Turbosound iQ speaker series control over P16. We are looking into releasing both some time next week.

to Pauly, #9590

So... I'd like to run (say) 2 pairs of studio monitors - Some accurate mid fields and some 'fun' Larger monitors from the x32 using 2 bus outs for each.. so lets say I want monitor set 1 to be routed to bus 13 & 14, and monitor set 2 routed to bus 15 & 16.

Dan correctly suggested using the Routing/output patched to Monitor L / Monitor R, for copying the monitor signal to the respective outputs. Alternatively, you might consider directly assigning the monitor signal to the physical XLR outputs using the new Routing/XLR page. Selecting AUX 5-6/Mon in two of the blocks would give you the monitor signal on two pairs of XLR connectors, without having to sacrifice an output 1-16 signal (which might help, if the out 1-16 are used e.g. for recording subgroups or fx returns).
Storing the output patch for your mid-field and large monitors in two snippets, would allow you to recall them conveniently from two of the user assignable buttons.

to Cesare and Nick, #9582

I had the same proble on a 3 day festival last weekend. X Edit on Mac reguarly disconnected or meters froze. On 2.04. Never had this problem prior to version 2.

While we weren't really seeing much of these problems in our test setups, there are a couple of improvements in the updates I mentioned above, that should provide much more stability in the communication and are very likely to fix your problems.

to Lee, John, Henry,

2. Tap tempo doesn't seem to work right to me.

Please note that the current X32-Mix app 2.2.0.6 was fixing a Tap-related issue of the older versions. I was just trying to verify your issues here using all recent versions. I set up the Stereo Delay (both factors=1, feedback and mix 50%) and tried tapping directly on the console (fw 2.04), on X32-Edit (2.0) and on X32-Mix (2.2). The resulting tempo seemed pretty much spot on. If you are still seeing difficulties with all software being properly updated, could one of you send me a pm with details of how much the perceived deviation was, along with a scene or preset file that we might evaluate?

Lee,
Yes, the RTA display in channel or graphic eqs can be turned off on the METERS/rta page, when you turn 'EQ Overlay' off.

Hope that helps, and stay tuned for the updates I mentioned above.

Best,
Jan

 

[Pauly Mel]

Re: Advice please - How to setup studio monitors without the dreaded whine

Thanks Dan

I'll give that a go... If it's that simple I'm disappointed in myself for not trying it sooner

Pauly

If I understand what you want correctly, you just source the outputs from the Mon L/Mon R in Routing. That's how we treat the Listen wedge for monitor world.

The whine is in the Monitor XLR's and the headphone jacks, not in the Monitor circuit. HTH.

 

[Pauly Mel]

Re: X32 Discussion

Thanks Jan,
I'm happy to sacrifice 4 outputs as none are in use now (Firewire recording interface).
Storing the monitor setups in snippets and recalling from user defined buttons is BRILLIANT! Thanks for the idea.

Pauly

Dear all,

to Pauly, #9590

Dan correctly suggested using the Routing/output patched to Monitor L / Monitor R, for copying the monitor signal to the respective outputs. Alternatively, you might consider directly assigning the monitor signal to the physical XLR outputs using the new Routing/XLR page. Selecting AUX 5-6/Mon in two of the blocks would give you the monitor signal on two pairs of XLR connectors, without having to sacrifice an output 1-16 signal (which might help, if the out 1-16 are used e.g. for recording subgroups or fx returns).
Storing the output patch for your mid-field and large monitors in two snippets, would allow you to recall them conveniently from two of the user assignable buttons.

Best,
Jan

 

[Robert Lofgren]

Re: X32 Discussion

Tnx Jan,

Can you confirm my findings with the v1.x firmware that the console tap tempo averages your tapping over the up to last ten taps and that you must wait at least three seconds before doing any new tapping before initiating a new 'tap dance'. Otherwise that 'skewed' tap within the three second window tap will affect the average.

Please note that the current X32-Mix app 2.2.0.6 was fixing a Tap-related issue of the older versions. I was just trying to verify your issues here using all recent versions. I set up the Stereo Delay (both factors=1, feedback and mix 50%) and tried tapping directly on the console (fw 2.04), on X32-Edit (2.0) and on X32-Mix (2.2). The resulting tempo seemed pretty much spot on. If you are still seeing difficulties with all software being properly updated, could one of you send me a pm with details of how much the perceived deviation was, along with a scene or preset file that we might evaluate?

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: CARE TEAM - need help. Audio Dropouts on AES50

We built a 175' shielded ethernet cable with ethercon ends for out AES50 link between the x32rack and the x32. (x32rack is operating as an s16). During yesterday's service we had two dropouts. (Sounds like a POP, then no audio, and then it comes back). Each time it was when someone was near the cable. Weve had those almost every week during setup/practive but this is the first week weve had it happen during the service.

After the service we did some experimentation. I had two people hold onto the cable at a point about 10 feet from one end and another about 20 feet from that to ioslate the rest of the cable. I then took the cable and shook it around a bunch. Without fail we could make this phenomenon happen every time.

Can anyone explain why? Is it an electrical induction issue? Is it a static electricity issue? The other times when people were near the cables no one was shaking it.

Any thoughts?

Dan - I need some more info please. What is printed on the side of the cable you are using? Please copy the whole string on the side. Did you terminate it and did you put on the ethercon's?
Some less expensive cat 5 and 6 is aluminum with a copper coating. Not junk but real close. Normally this cable is used as tray cable where it will not be moved and terminated to a frame and not RJ45.

 

[Jan Duwe]

Re: X32 Discussion

Tnx Jan,

Can you confirm my findings with the v1.x firmware that the console tap tempo averages your tapping over the up to last ten taps ...

Hi Robert,

Averaging over the past 10 taps was the case with the previous X32-Mix 2.1 for iPad, which was changed to only 4 taps with release 2.2.0.6.

The console never needs more than 2 taps, but averages over 4 taps. However, you may need to wait for the maximum delay time, depending on the specific FX parameter range but no more than 5s, before the tap counter starts from scratch. E.g. if your max. Delay Time is 3s and your 4th tapping was detected 2.9s after the previous 3 taps, then 2.9s will be summed into the running average.

Does that make sense?

Best,
Jan

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi Robert,

Averaging over the past 10 taps was the case with the previous X32-Mix 2.1 for iPad, which was changed to only 4 taps with release 2.2.0.6.

The console never needs more than 2 taps, but averages over 4 taps. However, you may need to wait for the maximum delay time, depending on the specific FX parameter range but no more than 5s, before the tap counter starts from scratch. E.g. if your max. Delay Time is 3s and your 4th tapping was detected 2.9s after the previous 3 taps, then 2.9s will be summed into the running average.

Does that make sense?

Best,
Jan

Hi Jan-

I can confirm that the tap temp for the delay DOES NOT WORK the way it should. When I tap quarter note beats, I expect the delay time to reflect what I've tapped. On a recent show I found that my tap tempos would be off by 25%- 90%. Tapping a rhythm that should give a 250ms delay resulted in values from 280-700ms.

It's worthless to me in the current implementation. Make it work like the Avid (or no worse than).

 

[John Chiara]

Re: X32 Discussion

Hi Jan-

I can confirm that the tap temp for the delay DOES NOT WORK the way it should. When I tap quarter note beats, I expect the delay time to reflect what I've tapped. On a recent show I found that my tap tempos would be off by 25%- 90%. Tapping a rhythm that should give a 250ms delay resulted in values from 280-700ms.

It's worthless to me in the current implementation. Make it work like the Avid (or no worse than).

I agree. And who thought of the averaging idea?? Usually one taps multiple time to get closer to the actual tempo over time. I want the LAST 2 taps to stick... That's the point of multiple taps.AND a third tap SHOULD start the detection sequence anew. Just make it work like EVERY other tap delay in the world that I have ever used...and there have been a few!