X32 Discussion

Re: X32 Discussion

If your business was based on renting a high dollar mixer to bands doing small clubs or events, then the X32 will indeed be a threat. These bands can now easily handle these events themselves if they purchase an X32. I tend to believe that good sound companies provide more than mixers.

Scott, you said a lot. While nobody can argue the need for large hardware inventories, much of the discussion here seems to forget what it is that makes one rental company seemingly "better" than another--perhaps that's where the difference is--a sound company as opposed to a rental company. At one level you could successfully argue that the access to big inventories leads to success in the Pro Audio industry, but I would like to think that success is the result of a lot more. Any good business model has to take into consideration the "value added" in the delivery of products or services and Pro Audio is no exception! A console is simply a tool we use as a part of a much larger system to provide the client what he or she is wanting. In looking at the overall cost picture, console cost is really not as big an item as some here have suggested. In order to produce any show, we need to put in place a myriad of other systems (power distribution, stage snakes, inputs, output distribution, various speaker and amplifier systems, and, of course, personnel).

For those who think there is not much difference between a sound company and a rental house, look at the fabrication facilities of most viable sound companies. Consoles are just a small part of the picture--this is a business where you cannot find turn-key, "off-the-shelf" solutions for many of our needs--we fabricate what we need. Innovation is not limited to the hardware we put in place but has to include the manner in which it is deployed. We talk of a sound system very loosely, ignoring that any properly designed sound system is really a combination of many other systems and that it is in how we integrate these systems, through fabrication fostered by innovation, that we achieve our success in this industry.

The X32 console definitely fills a void in digital console deployment. Previously, one could argue that deploying a digital console artificially required the client to "buy into" much more than was needed in terms of channel count and processing horsepower. Larger digital systems do require more personnel to deploy and maintain especially when many of those consoles have ancillary racks for processing, remote head amps, and such--really not much different that larger analog deployments. If I base the success of my business model solely on the ability to deploy a more expensive console, then I might as well shut the doors because I am not taking into account the value that I am adding in the delivery of products & services to the client. This is a service industry, not just a hardware one. In the digital world, the landscape is continually changing and, if I want to maintain a fair measure of success, my model must change to accommodate these industry changes.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Better figure something out and fast cause the genie is out with no signs of returning to the bottle. Furthermore better have that "tomorrow plan" in place cause it won't be long till someone has an X56 for half the price.

to top it all off a new stage box with a whole 24 ch digital mixer with some of these features is due out in September for $1000.00. Now any band can buy that for just 2 rental rates. The UMix 24 will crush many rentals, more than the X32 has.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Better figure something out and fast cause the genie is out with no signs of returning to the bottle. Furthermore better have that "tomorrow plan" in place cause it won't be long till someone has an X56 for half the price.

to top it all off a new stage box with a whole 24 ch digital mixer with some of these features is due out in September for $1000.00. Now any band can buy that for just 2 rental rates. The UMix 24 will crush many rentals, more than the X32 has.

Ya know Glen, I find myself as skeptical of the UMix as I was of the original X32. I believe they will reach their price point, I am not as convinced that they will match the sound quality of the X32 though.

I have read through the feature set on the UMix. It is more of a competitor to the DL1604 vs the X32 IMHO. It is much more limited in features than the X32.

I could be proven wrong ....... again ;)

I do agree with your thinking though. Sound companies will need more than just an inventory of expensive mixers to remain competitive.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Something doesn't add up here, our X32 paid for itself within a year of having it just in dry rentals.

I charge 5% of retail for rental of an X32 and get it all the time. I'm making a heck of a lot more profit than if you are renting out a Pro2 at 1.5% of cost. And the demand for the X32 is pretty darned high.

Could you guys please talk for a second about how well the console holds up to random users? I've been afraid to rent to people I don't know because of things like faders jumping off track or spills or whatever.

Yes, I know you have a refundable deposit or credit card charge on rentals to cover such things, but how has the console stood up to that kind of use?

Thanks,
Dan
 
Re: X32 Discussion

I fell about laughing when i read this series of posts on my email catch up. seriously? someone is complaining about tech reducing employees needed in a tech industry? didn't we have this argument 30 odd years ago with the synthesizer making the orchestra redundant? and with computers? and before that with the motor vehicle? i'm the owner operator of two engineering businesses in completely different areas of engineering (sound and construction) - as engineers we should be running towards the future, your client looks to you to be the smartest person in the room, the expert in your area - are you saying the expert didn't see this coming?
people do not employ bodies or even engineers, they employ solutions to problems, problem solvers - as an engineer you should always be making yourself redundant to a certain extent, pushing the boundaries of what is possible, including what is possible on a budget by providing a solution to a problem. once that gets so routine that anyone can do it, then it ain't engineering - and as an engineer you should be elsewhere at the cutting edge solving the next problem - to do otherwise is to deny who we are as humans - evolution is part of our theme. the guy wondering where his investment and business went (whatever business) is like the guy in the cave who can't completely grasp why the other guys are banging rocks together.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

I fell about laughing when i read this series of posts on my email catch up. seriously? someone is complaining about tech reducing employees needed in a tech industry? didn't we have this argument 30 odd years ago with the synthesizer making the orchestra redundant? and with computers? and before that with the motor vehicle? i'm the owner operator of two engineering businesses in completely different areas of engineering (sound and construction) - as engineers we should be running towards the future, your client looks to you to be the smartest person in the room, the expert in your area - are you saying the expert didn't see this coming?
people do not employ bodies or even engineers, they employ solutions to problems, problem solvers - as an engineer you should always be making yourself redundant to a certain extent, pushing the boundaries of what is possible, including what is possible on a budget by providing a solution to a problem. once that gets so routine that anyone can do it, then it ain't engineering - and as an engineer you should be elsewhere at the cutting edge solving the next problem - to do otherwise is to deny who we are as humans - evolution is part of our theme. the guy wondering where his investment and business went (whatever business) is like the guy in the cave who can't completely grasp why the other guys are banging rocks together.

I think there are a couple of differences you're overlooking, Howard. First, "sound engineers" are not usually engineers in the sense of having professional registry status, a minimum of a college degree, etc; second, structural engineers are hired to either design a solution or evaluate a proposed solution and certify that it will (or won't) safely meet the expectations of the client. They sell a service that doesn't typically involve dedicated physical assets delivered to the client's site and operated to provide an outcome to a proximate audience.

So my question is, how do "sound engineers" monetize? The personal technical efforts, at the Lounge level, seem pretty hard to sell to many clients (bands, little cheap-ass festivals, etc) but they understand rental of assets needed to perform the task. So again, how do you monetize this and how do you, after buying a "solution" at a higher price, deal with a competitor who uses a new but cheap tool (in this case, sold by the same manufacturer)? Also I think it's important to note that in Germany, it is customary to bill the client for hardware as separate line items and the custom is for a particular percentage of cost. I can understand the awkward position that Mr. Martens finds himself in, competing against a cheaper product made by the same company that just dropped the price of the expensive models, too.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Better figure something out and fast cause the genie is out with no signs of returning to the bottle. Furthermore better have that "tomorrow plan" in place cause it won't be long till someone has an X56 for half the price.

to top it all off a new stage box with a whole 24 ch digital mixer with some of these features is due out in September for $1000.00. Now any band can buy that for just 2 rental rates. The UMix 24 will crush many rentals, more than the X32 has.

???? You can get an X32 rack for that price.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

???? You can get an X32 rack for that price.

True But -
$1100.00 here, and yes it would be a way better move, but that $101.00 plus another $50+ for a wireless router will sway some. Also a few even smaller less expensive models in the UMix line will have a lure on newbies, tight budgets, and those that hate all things Behringer.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

True But -
$1100.00 here, and yes it would be a way better move, but that $101.00 plus another $50+ for a wireless router will sway some. Also a few even smaller less expensive models in the UMix line will have a lure on newbies, tight budgets, and those that hate all things Behringer.
Yeah, I can see that. Not sure I'd trust the other company myself.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

True But -
$1100.00 here, and yes it would be a way better move, but that $101.00 plus another $50+ for a wireless router will sway some. Also a few even smaller less expensive models in the UMix line will have a lure on newbies, tight budgets, and those that hate all things Behringer.
The SMPRO site indicates you'll need a special browser on iPad -- ie, no app. Must be HTML5 -- but doesn't run under standard Safari? Ambitious but scarey.
..dave
 
Re: X32 Discussion

The SMPRO site indicates you'll need a special browser on iPad -- ie, no app. Must be HTML5 -- but doesn't run under standard Safari? Ambitious but scarey.
..dave

Dave,

I have investigated this approach at work for some of our own products (vehicle diagnostic software). Since the interpreter and rendering engine is different from browser to browser .... and indeed from version of browser to version of the same browser, this took it out of contention for our next generation of products as stability is very central to our product offering.

Aside from this, the performance of HTML5 is a tiny fraction of native, and even pales compared to Java execution speeds.

Tim,

While I can sympathize with the business model issues a product like the X32 line introduces, one can only play the hand with the cards that are delt. Perhaps there is a hybrid approach where a company could offer both dry rental and a varying combination of expert setup and operation. If people want to rent and operate themselves, offer emergency services (at a premium) to bail them out if and when they get in over their heads.

No matter what though, you have to operate your business within the constraints of the competitive landscape you exist in. Trying to change the landscape to meet your model is futile..... and potentially fatal to your business.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Dave,

I have investigated this approach at work for some of our own products (vehicle diagnostic software). Since the interpreter and rendering engine is different from browser to browser .... and indeed from version of browser to version of the same browser, this took it out of contention for our next generation of products as stability is very central to our product offering.

Aside from this, the performance of HTML5 is a tiny fraction of native, and even pales compared to Java execution speeds.

Tim,

While I can sympathize with the business model issues a product like the X32 line introduces, one can only play the hand with the cards that are delt. Perhaps there is a hybrid approach where a company could offer both dry rental and a varying combination of expert setup and operation. If people want to rent and operate themselves, offer emergency services (at a premium) to bail them out if and when they get in over their heads.

No matter what though, you have to operate your business within the constraints of the competitive landscape you exist in. Trying to change the landscape to meet your model is futile..... and potentially fatal to your business.

Bundle those services. We would get the nod to do the show when they shown up to load the gear. We would swing open the warehouse door and say have at it, you need 8 double 18 and 16 hi packs, those heavy amp racks.....and_ they would cave.
No one expects the level of labor needed for even a small show. Or the truck rental.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

I think there are a couple of differences you're overlooking, Howard. First, "sound engineers" are not usually engineers in the sense of having professional registry status, a minimum of a college degree, etc; second, structural engineers are hired to either design a solution or evaluate a proposed solution and certify that it will (or won't) safely meet the expectations of the client. They sell a service that doesn't typically involve dedicated physical assets delivered to the client's site and operated to provide an outcome to a proximate audience.

So my question is, how do "sound engineers" monetize? The personal technical efforts, at the Lounge level, seem pretty hard to sell to many clients (bands, little cheap-ass festivals, etc) but they understand rental of assets needed to perform the task. So again, how do you monetize this and how do you, after buying a "solution" at a higher price, deal with a competitor who uses a new but cheap tool (in this case, sold by the same manufacturer)? Also I think it's important to note that in Germany, it is customary to bill the client for hardware as separate line items and the custom is for a particular percentage of cost. I can understand the awkward position that Mr. Martens finds himself in, competing against a cheaper product made by the same company that just dropped the price of the expensive models, too.

i honestly have no idea how it is in the USA but a large percentage of younger engineers (28 or less) in the UK DO carry university degrees or similar. to a lesser extent some in their 30's do but I haven't met any peers (i'm in my late 40's) who have - it's just another example of an evolving industry.
I built my business on sound design - i hire in from larger companies or my clients do (anything from bar bands to small theatre gigs) - the mantra for my hire co colleagues is don't buy what you can't hire and don't buy it until you have a job for it - that's not dissimilar to other supplier and manufacturer 'just in time' processes. my job IS to design something that works for my clients and execute a production and mix that production - doesn't matter whether it's a tiny bar of 50 with an open door or a theatre of 800 with ticket entry. along with the digital revolution there is a shifting customer expectation, both from the attendee and the band that they get something 'special' - otherwise they can go up the road to the next bar/theatre or take in a movie with surround sound or any one of the other 100's of attractions that exist in the average town. there has never been a greater need for someone the band trust and who designs a full solution to a show that they can rely on, build their reputation on and move up the chain - or just make where they are at pay better. hence both bands purchasing gear that would have previously been out of their range and to hire in guys like us.
at the bottom of the pile, the business model of selling boxes for hire is dead. whether you know it yet or not.
the business model of providing solutions to problems will never die - so long as you can spot what the problem is!
So yeah engineers really are engineers and we really are designing solutions - if you do this and someone else provides the gear then you are akin to a civil engineering consultant - if you provide the gear too then you are a contractor designer, if you just hire out gear to others then you are the plant hire co. and just like the plant hire co you need to decide whether you want to buy in a big earth mover or a half dozen bob cats.
if you stop thinking about businesses as people who sell and start thinking of them as problem solvers then the rest will follow. when a market evolves, those that fail to catch on fall by the wayside.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

i honestly have no idea how it is in the USA but a large percentage of younger engineers (28 or less) in the UK DO carry university degrees or similar. to a lesser extent some in their 30's do but I haven't met any peers (i'm in my late 40's) who have - it's just another example of an evolving industry.

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that undergraduate degrees in Europe are typically paid for by the state with little or no debt incurred by the student.

Here in the USA it's the opposite: College or University education is quite expensive to begin with, and paid for by the student and/or their family. Getting this student financial aid is perhaps the most involved part of applying for and going to college, the college gets to look at full financial records for the student and their parents. Often planning for this moment starts at birth, using a 529 plan or other financial instrument. For a middle class family going to a B level college you can typically expect the college to pay about half using grants and scholarships. Better colleges have better grants and scholarships, my sister graduated from Princeton with no debt whatsoever - and in fact they sent her on studies abroad and other very interesting trips using school funds while she was attending. I graduated from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and squeaked by with about $15K in debt, maybe 10% of my education. This debt is readily issued at good (but not great) interest rates by financial institutions as it is guaranteed by the Federal government. Not only do they guarantee it, but it cannot be discharged by the student for any reason - including bankruptcy. It is easy, by the time you enter the working world with your BS or BA degree, to have paid $150K for that privilege and have $25K in debt to show for it.

God forbid you go to medical school, which costs about $250,000 and is borne entirely by the student. This heavily disincentivizes becoming a primary care physician, hospitalist, or family practice doctor as the pay is not high enough to pay back the degree in short order.

Graduate degrees, and medical specialties (like becoming an orthopedic surgeon) are usually 100% covered, plus a stipend to live on, by the school or government (like the NIH). My wife, who has a PhD in molecular biology and works in basic research at Harvard Medical School, had $10K in debt total to show from her entire education - BS, MS, and PhD - from Ivy League schools.

Long story short, it is extremely financially difficult in the USA to get a college degree and then work in pro audio. The risk/reward ratio here is not honestly analyzed by most students as not having an undergraduate degree is highly stigmatized, even though most jobs in Pro Audio do not require a bachelors degree.
 
Re: X32 Discussion

In sweden, unless you go for very basic education, university is very expensive as well. Even the 'gymnasie' that probably translates into college cost some money since you often need to pay for all the books, food and student home, etc...

Most of my friends still pay on their student loans...
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Dave,

I have investigated this approach at work for some of our own products (vehicle diagnostic software). Since the interpreter and rendering engine is different from browser to browser .... and indeed from version of browser to version of the same browser, this took it out of contention for our next generation of products as stability is very central to our product offering.

Aside from this, the performance of HTML5 is a tiny fraction of native, and even pales compared to Java execution speeds.

Yes indeed Scott, you're preaching to the choir on that topic <wink>! I run a data-intensive web system that takes more than 2 million hits a day and MUST have five-nines availability. Even adding simple non-cutting edge Javascript dynamic-display elements requires testing on many versions of many browsers. Our access_log stats show that ~12% of our public users are still using Internet Explorer 8 first released in 2009!

HTML5 offers great promise (in theory) but we've totally ruled it out in out product for the foreseeable future. I wish SMPRO luck but I'm leery to say the least.
...dave
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Dear All,
As Glenn has pointed out, we released a "preview" version of a new app called X AIR on the Apple store. This will be used to control the X18 and some very exciting new products in development. We hope you enjoy the preview!
 
Re: X32 Discussion

Dear All,
As Glenn has pointed out, we released a "preview" version of a new app called X AIR on the Apple store. This will be used to control the X18 and some very exciting new products in development. We hope you enjoy the preview!

nice app John. I'll have to take back all the nasty things I said about the 2 years it took to get the iX16/X18 out, once it is out.