Re: X32 Discussion
Thanks Tim, yes that does help.... I'm getting it..... I'm sure more questions will be forthcoming...
Thanks Tim, yes that does help.... I'm getting it..... I'm sure more questions will be forthcoming...
X32 Discussion
- Thread starter Rob Spence
- Start date
Re: X32 Discussion
Forgot to add that MATRIX outputs have no default physical output patched to them, and you'll need to reassign unused XLR or AUX OUTPUTS to use a matrix.
Since buses 13 & 14 are typically EFX sends I use XLR 13 & 14.
Another thing I overlooked was mentioning that BUS virtual outs are NOT assigned to L/R by default, although I don't think that matters for your use; in fact it's probably what you need.
Forgot to add that MATRIX outputs have no default physical output patched to them, and you'll need to reassign unused XLR or AUX OUTPUTS to use a matrix.
Since buses 13 & 14 are typically EFX sends I use XLR 13 & 14.
Another thing I overlooked was mentioning that BUS virtual outs are NOT assigned to L/R by default, although I don't think that matters for your use; in fact it's probably what you need.
Re: X32 Discussion
X32 is being delivered tonight... studying xedit offline and your explanations are helping a great deal. I think it will help when I finally get some signals hooked up...... after I get the X32 talking to Xedit..
X32 is being delivered tonight... studying xedit offline and your explanations are helping a great deal. I think it will help when I finally get some signals hooked up...... after I get the X32 talking to Xedit..
Last edited:
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Keith!
Thank you and in fact I did write to them on s16 and p16 linkage on last Sunday and guess what, I received their reply and concern early this morning by Sam Daniel. I will furnish him in details as to his question and keep you guys update here.
Regarding the Pop, Blast, or Bang whatever we call from the monitor; I had also able to find some feedback from few website last night. I need to find shielded CaT5 that to my recall I remember people step on or even chairs sit on it. I hope this is the main culprit and by changing it will solve the issue. This problem had brought up by some S16 owners in 2013 and sorry to say I was not hardworking enough to follow up.
I am super happy and see some progress in action. By the way, Is it fine to use CaT6?
Best regards,
Alfred
Hi Keith!
Thank you and in fact I did write to them on s16 and p16 linkage on last Sunday and guess what, I received their reply and concern early this morning by Sam Daniel. I will furnish him in details as to his question and keep you guys update here.
Regarding the Pop, Blast, or Bang whatever we call from the monitor; I had also able to find some feedback from few website last night. I need to find shielded CaT5 that to my recall I remember people step on or even chairs sit on it. I hope this is the main culprit and by changing it will solve the issue. This problem had brought up by some S16 owners in 2013 and sorry to say I was not hardworking enough to follow up.
I am super happy and see some progress in action. By the way, Is it fine to use CaT6?
Best regards,
Alfred
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Alfred
Thanks for the update.
I’m glad your concerns are being resolved.
We recommend using shielded CAT5e cable on the X32 family.
Thank you for your on-going support and use of our brands.
Hi Alfred
Thanks for the update.
I’m glad your concerns are being resolved.
We recommend using shielded CAT5e cable on the X32 family.
Thank you for your on-going support and use of our brands.
Re: X32 Discussion
That longitudinal spacer is there so that CAT6 can meet spec, but also provides physical isolation between pairs that I think can help with the pulling-squeezing problem that I discussed a long time ago in this thread.
More info that doesn't exactly address this but describes the problem at
http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2013/jun_cat5/
along with links to a couple videos.
That workshop also didn't address Brian Wynn's findings for the necessity of shielded cable with Ethercons to avoid the pops from static electricity discharge (electrostatic discharge- ESD). That came later.
Yes, you do, but there is absolutely no reason why shielded CAT6 won't work as well or better than CAT5e, especially when approaching the 100 meter/328 foot limit for CAT cable. There is a longitudinal spacer in CAT6 that is usually not in CAT5e which might help with certain kinds of physical abuse of the cable.
That longitudinal spacer is there so that CAT6 can meet spec, but also provides physical isolation between pairs that I think can help with the pulling-squeezing problem that I discussed a long time ago in this thread.
More info that doesn't exactly address this but describes the problem at
http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2013/jun_cat5/
along with links to a couple videos.
That workshop also didn't address Brian Wynn's findings for the necessity of shielded cable with Ethercons to avoid the pops from static electricity discharge (electrostatic discharge- ESD). That came later.
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Keith.
For my sharing, x32 serve our church well for pass 3 years. We totally are fresh and not even know what is effect, nor knowing how to connect more then eq. We had trail, go rough, learning, replug day and night, dial in and out. This desk still stand strong. It is like a training device to us and we are totally pleased with the stability.
I just go for your recommendation. For me which ever cable is fine as long as solve the issue. We have a long way to go. Alrite regarding p16, it is totally a new gig and all musicians love it but we only have one unit. We plan to go daisy chain but the p16 D looks decent. Honestly this is my first time toying digital connection and is there any thing i should concern? We plan to go for between 3 to 5 unit. Say, one fine day the x32 collapse is it possible to hook on to M32?
Best regards.
Alfred.
Hi Keith.
For my sharing, x32 serve our church well for pass 3 years. We totally are fresh and not even know what is effect, nor knowing how to connect more then eq. We had trail, go rough, learning, replug day and night, dial in and out. This desk still stand strong. It is like a training device to us and we are totally pleased with the stability.
I just go for your recommendation. For me which ever cable is fine as long as solve the issue. We have a long way to go. Alrite regarding p16, it is totally a new gig and all musicians love it but we only have one unit. We plan to go daisy chain but the p16 D looks decent. Honestly this is my first time toying digital connection and is there any thing i should concern? We plan to go for between 3 to 5 unit. Say, one fine day the x32 collapse is it possible to hook on to M32?
Best regards.
Alfred.
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Alfred
Please contact our technical support team to discuss your questions in more detail and we can provide support as appropriate.
You can reach us at [email protected] or on +1-702-800-8290 (US) or +44 1562 732290 (UK)
Hi Alfred
Please contact our technical support team to discuss your questions in more detail and we can provide support as appropriate.
You can reach us at [email protected] or on +1-702-800-8290 (US) or +44 1562 732290 (UK)
Re: X32 Discussion
I'm having a problem with a routing scheme in my studio. I'd like to know if it's possible, just to have proof of concept for other applications. At my main desk, I have the X32 original. About 20 feet away in a 12 space rack bay, I have the x32 rack, as well as other outboard gear I'd like to be able to incorporate into my workflow. What I'd like to accomplish is this:
1. Insert a TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, 100% wet into an Ableton Live Return channel.
2. Using the built in buss sends from Ableton's session view, route audio clips with 100% feed to the "TC Helicon Return".
3. With an "External Audio Effect" plugin instantiated on the return track, send audio:
a.) Through the card output to the main X32.
b.) Across the AES50 port to an X32 Rack channel with the hardware inserted.
c.) Return processed audio back to the main board and into the DAW.
The external audio effect plugin essentially allows you to select an output and input from your audio interface to create an insert point in the Ableton channel. If I could get this working, my imagination says I could record clips into Ableton, send them to the TC Helicon Bus for processing externally by the hardware unit, and return the audio into the Ableton mixer for live effect or capturing into a separate clip. The AES50 connections coupled with the way the X32 handles inserts is puzzling to me. I'll think I have a workable routing scheme, and then I'll end up with some kind of feedback loop somewhere. Clearly I'm not cracking it myself.
What I've come up with so far is:
AES50 25-32 carries card 25-32. Select channel 32 as my "output" from the Ableton external effect plugin. A32 carries signal to channel 32 on the X32 rack. Connect Aux 1 as an insert which is physically connected to the TC Helicon unit.
This is where I get stumped. Do I then route AES50 outputs from the X32 rack to carry Aux 1-6/Mon, or a post fader direct out of mixer channel 32?
If your head is in knots after reading this, you understand why I'm looking for help. Thanks.
I'm having a problem with a routing scheme in my studio. I'd like to know if it's possible, just to have proof of concept for other applications. At my main desk, I have the X32 original. About 20 feet away in a 12 space rack bay, I have the x32 rack, as well as other outboard gear I'd like to be able to incorporate into my workflow. What I'd like to accomplish is this:
1. Insert a TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, 100% wet into an Ableton Live Return channel.
2. Using the built in buss sends from Ableton's session view, route audio clips with 100% feed to the "TC Helicon Return".
3. With an "External Audio Effect" plugin instantiated on the return track, send audio:
a.) Through the card output to the main X32.
b.) Across the AES50 port to an X32 Rack channel with the hardware inserted.
c.) Return processed audio back to the main board and into the DAW.
The external audio effect plugin essentially allows you to select an output and input from your audio interface to create an insert point in the Ableton channel. If I could get this working, my imagination says I could record clips into Ableton, send them to the TC Helicon Bus for processing externally by the hardware unit, and return the audio into the Ableton mixer for live effect or capturing into a separate clip. The AES50 connections coupled with the way the X32 handles inserts is puzzling to me. I'll think I have a workable routing scheme, and then I'll end up with some kind of feedback loop somewhere. Clearly I'm not cracking it myself.
What I've come up with so far is:
AES50 25-32 carries card 25-32. Select channel 32 as my "output" from the Ableton external effect plugin. A32 carries signal to channel 32 on the X32 rack. Connect Aux 1 as an insert which is physically connected to the TC Helicon unit.
This is where I get stumped. Do I then route AES50 outputs from the X32 rack to carry Aux 1-6/Mon, or a post fader direct out of mixer channel 32?
If your head is in knots after reading this, you understand why I'm looking for help. Thanks.
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Dan,
Just confirm with the previous supplier and indeed we had been suing UTP Cat cable for pass 3 years. Will do the changes within this 2 weeks and custom one at 50 feet. CAT5e. Thanks! It had been very decent this 2 weeks with no Super loud 'pop'. Hope can be in time to change before the next pop come.
Best regards,
Alfred
Hi Dan,
Just confirm with the previous supplier and indeed we had been suing UTP Cat cable for pass 3 years. Will do the changes within this 2 weeks and custom one at 50 feet. CAT5e. Thanks! It had been very decent this 2 weeks with no Super loud 'pop'. Hope can be in time to change before the next pop come.
Best regards,
Alfred
Re: X32 Discussion
And make sure that there is an electrical connection between the shield and ethercons as well. If you use a patch panel or similar connection between cable segments this is equally important.
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Robert.
Just meet the Cat cable guy and our cable will go 100 meters because due to unpopularity of STP cable usage in our region. So he will buy a box then and share with me. Ya, he said if shielded the connector termination will also shielded (earth) but not sure about the ethecon. I thought the ethecon is used for protection and cant find any layman term or ways to connect it. Please enlighten me.
Best regards.
Alfred
Hi Robert.
Just meet the Cat cable guy and our cable will go 100 meters because due to unpopularity of STP cable usage in our region. So he will buy a box then and share with me. Ya, he said if shielded the connector termination will also shielded (earth) but not sure about the ethecon. I thought the ethecon is used for protection and cant find any layman term or ways to connect it. Please enlighten me.
Best regards.
Alfred
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Robert.
Just double confirm by the physical difference of UTP and STP. UTP termination is plastic, most likely transparent but STP termination, cable shield touches the termination housing at least by both side. So please mark me if i am wrong; adding the ethercon which only the earth will flow through it if thermination is STP cable type. To my curosity why not they just solder the earth together in the aes50 and by using STP cable u dont need to add ethercon. Anyway pleae let me know if i am correct. Thanks!! I think i am close....
Hi Robert.
Just double confirm by the physical difference of UTP and STP. UTP termination is plastic, most likely transparent but STP termination, cable shield touches the termination housing at least by both side. So please mark me if i am wrong; adding the ethercon which only the earth will flow through it if thermination is STP cable type. To my curosity why not they just solder the earth together in the aes50 and by using STP cable u dont need to add ethercon. Anyway pleae let me know if i am correct. Thanks!! I think i am close....
Re: X32 Discussion
100 meters is at the recommended maximum length. Don't forget any additional patch cables in that equation. It is recommended to avoid stranded cables when going this lenght.
If you find the length to be an issue then there is and aes50 extender available.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/klark_teknik_dn9610.htm
Tests made by others indicated that the added conductivity of the ethercons helped a lot for ESD.
100 meters is at the recommended maximum length. Don't forget any additional patch cables in that equation. It is recommended to avoid stranded cables when going this lenght.
If you find the length to be an issue then there is and aes50 extender available.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/klark_teknik_dn9610.htm
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: X32 Discussion
It may be hearsay, but I was under the impression that the ethercon shell provides the best path to the console's chassis ground.
If the ESD travels through the aes50 jack only, it proves too much for the aes50 parts to deal with and it, literally, cracks.
It may be hearsay, but I was under the impression that the ethercon shell provides the best path to the console's chassis ground.
If the ESD travels through the aes50 jack only, it proves too much for the aes50 parts to deal with and it, literally, cracks.
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi Alfred,
Just to clarify something you almost but didn't quite say, the RJ45 for UTP is completely plastic, while the RJ45 for STP is plastic with a metal shell.
My understanding is that the most reliable way to terminate the shield is to solder the drain wire from the shield to the metal shell of the RJ45 in a place that won't interfere with the Ethercon connector. I do it at the back of the RJ45 and not top or sides, and rotate the little C-spacer that comes with the Ethercon so the soldered point is in the open part of the C. Like this: C- , with the - being the soldered connection.
The Ethercon seems to get connected to the RJ45 by simply being around it. There is no soldering or extra connection between the RJ45 and the Ethercon shell. It seems lame to do it that way, but that's how they do it and it works. So far.
Regarding Tim's comment about cracking the RJ45 shell or receptacle when used as a path to ground: never heard or experienced that, kinda doesn't make sense as there IS a path to ground through the shielded RJ45 whether there's an Ethercon shell or not, since the Ethercon gets its connection to the shield from the RJ45.
In my understanding, the Ethercon shell provides a grounded shield around the otherwise unshielded parts of the shielded RJ45, which has big openings for an electrical charge to sneak in. My understanding may not be complete, so...
Hope this helps and is not more confusing.
Oh, and keep in mind that if you are running a 100 meter CAT cable that the 100 meter limit INCLUDES any extensions or couplings that are connected inline between the stage box and the console. Also keep in mind that the performance decreases as you approach 100 meters in ways that I can't quantify without measuring, so if you only need 50 meters and will never use the full 100 meters, you will have a more long-term reliable connection at least theoretically if you only use 50 meters of cable rather than 100.
Hi Alfred,
Just to clarify something you almost but didn't quite say, the RJ45 for UTP is completely plastic, while the RJ45 for STP is plastic with a metal shell.
My understanding is that the most reliable way to terminate the shield is to solder the drain wire from the shield to the metal shell of the RJ45 in a place that won't interfere with the Ethercon connector. I do it at the back of the RJ45 and not top or sides, and rotate the little C-spacer that comes with the Ethercon so the soldered point is in the open part of the C. Like this: C- , with the - being the soldered connection.
The Ethercon seems to get connected to the RJ45 by simply being around it. There is no soldering or extra connection between the RJ45 and the Ethercon shell. It seems lame to do it that way, but that's how they do it and it works. So far.
Regarding Tim's comment about cracking the RJ45 shell or receptacle when used as a path to ground: never heard or experienced that, kinda doesn't make sense as there IS a path to ground through the shielded RJ45 whether there's an Ethercon shell or not, since the Ethercon gets its connection to the shield from the RJ45.
In my understanding, the Ethercon shell provides a grounded shield around the otherwise unshielded parts of the shielded RJ45, which has big openings for an electrical charge to sneak in. My understanding may not be complete, so...
Hope this helps and is not more confusing.
Oh, and keep in mind that if you are running a 100 meter CAT cable that the 100 meter limit INCLUDES any extensions or couplings that are connected inline between the stage box and the console. Also keep in mind that the performance decreases as you approach 100 meters in ways that I can't quantify without measuring, so if you only need 50 meters and will never use the full 100 meters, you will have a more long-term reliable connection at least theoretically if you only use 50 meters of cable rather than 100.
Re: X32 Discussion
Hi guys!! Alfred here. I was just about to ask the total lenght of connection. Tq so much to tell me ahead of time. I double confirm the old Cat connection just now and indeed it was just plastic and the Ethercon is just a dreasing on. I hope the seller dont realized about the significant of shielded otherwise i will be very upset on this. Thats all. I will go by 50 meters since current lenght i need is around 20. I am suprised that longer Cat will affect the sound and i thought this only apply to analog. By the way i learn something new. I am really pleased and tq so much all. Our region yet to see anyone using the S16 although x32 and even M32r had began replacing other analog deck. If one day they need advice surely we will share this to them. Have a nice weekend and keep you guys update and cheers. God bless.
Hi guys!! Alfred here. I was just about to ask the total lenght of connection. Tq so much to tell me ahead of time. I double confirm the old Cat connection just now and indeed it was just plastic and the Ethercon is just a dreasing on. I hope the seller dont realized about the significant of shielded otherwise i will be very upset on this. Thats all. I will go by 50 meters since current lenght i need is around 20. I am suprised that longer Cat will affect the sound and i thought this only apply to analog. By the way i learn something new. I am really pleased and tq so much all. Our region yet to see anyone using the S16 although x32 and even M32r had began replacing other analog deck. If one day they need advice surely we will share this to them. Have a nice weekend and keep you guys update and cheers. God bless.
Re: X32 Discussion
It's not that length "affects the sound" it's that *serial digital data transmission* can become corrupted with lines longer than the design permits and then the failure is complete (in that whatever audio might be present is unusable due to drop outs or other issues).
This is different than a very long analog audio line becoming a low-pass filter.
It's not that length "affects the sound" it's that *serial digital data transmission* can become corrupted with lines longer than the design permits and then the failure is complete (in that whatever audio might be present is unusable due to drop outs or other issues).
This is different than a very long analog audio line becoming a low-pass filter.
Re: X32 Discussion
A slight addition is that this not only applies to audio but ANYTHING using a protocol similar to Ethernet. There may be signal present in runs longer than 100 meters and you may get it to work on occasion or even regularly, but the parameters of the cable that allow it to pass these high speed signals (way higher than the audio range that we can hear) degrade with distance and you are operating on the ragged edge, where you are very close or over the line of go/no go at any given moment.
However, we had a presentation about the Rane HAL system in September at our AES Section meeting, and HAL uses Ethernet cable to send AES/EBU signal (think I have that right, two channels of audio per XLR connector/cable although they are not using XLR connectors) and that is good for 1000' or more, almost three times as far as Ethernet/AES50. I thought that was interesting.
Also, a person can get the little boxes with XLR's as input or output and Ethercons to connect to CAT cable to run analog audio over Ethernet cable and that is not subject to the 100 meter rule, either. http://www.soundtools.com/catsnake.html
So the rule is the rule unless the details are different.
Exactly.
A slight addition is that this not only applies to audio but ANYTHING using a protocol similar to Ethernet. There may be signal present in runs longer than 100 meters and you may get it to work on occasion or even regularly, but the parameters of the cable that allow it to pass these high speed signals (way higher than the audio range that we can hear) degrade with distance and you are operating on the ragged edge, where you are very close or over the line of go/no go at any given moment.
However, we had a presentation about the Rane HAL system in September at our AES Section meeting, and HAL uses Ethernet cable to send AES/EBU signal (think I have that right, two channels of audio per XLR connector/cable although they are not using XLR connectors) and that is good for 1000' or more, almost three times as far as Ethernet/AES50. I thought that was interesting.
Also, a person can get the little boxes with XLR's as input or output and Ethercons to connect to CAT cable to run analog audio over Ethernet cable and that is not subject to the 100 meter rule, either. http://www.soundtools.com/catsnake.html
So the rule is the rule unless the details are different.
Re: X32 Discussion
I just got my X32 rack communicating with x-edit running on my Windows XP laptop via the ethernet cabled connection and I have some questions I'm hoping someone can answer...
Is it normal for the X32 rack screen not to change/update when changes are made on x-edit? It seems to work the other way around, when changes are made on the x32 rack, the x-edit screen updates. This seems to be the case regardless of the setting of "presentation mode". Just to be clear, I'm talking about screen/tab changes, views, not changing on the rack when changed on xedit. All the parameters, fader levels, etc, seem to be communicated correctly.
......also, there is occasionally a long delay between when a parameter is updated/changed on x-edit to when it actually happens on the rack. This issue seems to be intermittent. Shouldn't changes be almost instant when communicating both ways?
I just updated the firmware on the rack to V2.14 and the version on x-edit screen is showing V2.40
Thank you.
Glenn Fin
I just got my X32 rack communicating with x-edit running on my Windows XP laptop via the ethernet cabled connection and I have some questions I'm hoping someone can answer...
Is it normal for the X32 rack screen not to change/update when changes are made on x-edit? It seems to work the other way around, when changes are made on the x32 rack, the x-edit screen updates. This seems to be the case regardless of the setting of "presentation mode". Just to be clear, I'm talking about screen/tab changes, views, not changing on the rack when changed on xedit. All the parameters, fader levels, etc, seem to be communicated correctly.
......also, there is occasionally a long delay between when a parameter is updated/changed on x-edit to when it actually happens on the rack. This issue seems to be intermittent. Shouldn't changes be almost instant when communicating both ways?
I just updated the firmware on the rack to V2.14 and the version on x-edit screen is showing V2.40
Thank you.
Glenn Fin