X32 Discussion

Re: Cable

Solid conductors will break way more often than flexible conductors when subject to constant bending and movement.(gig after gig after gig) That opposite notion is backwards IMO.
 
Re: Cable

Yeah, I've sometimes run some cat-6 solid FTP cable from my HDBT video system for aes50 use, seems to work well, but it's so stiff that its not much fun to lay down. Yes, it seems that STP is a bit vague, but generally refers to a more expensive cable that has each pair shielded and may/may not have an overall shield also. The FTP cable only has a single foil outer shield/drain wire and works great for removing the static charges that UTP cable sucks at (POP! - and a little silence, and we're back!)
 
Re: Cable

cary begans said:
Solid conductors will break way more often than flexible conductors when subject to constant bending and movement.(gig after gig after gig) That opposite notion is backwards IMO.
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It's funny; that notion seems intuitively correct but according to Steve Lampen of Belden (see video part 1) is factually incorrect.

Modern copper annealing and/or other treatment has apparently made solid Ethernet cable as durable as stranded. It would be an interesting experiment to make a couple of short cables using solid and stranded and the appropriate RJ-45's for each (I have some specifically for stranded with inserts that I bought a couple years ago, but looking again recently the options seemed fewer and the connectors stated they were for both solid and stranded) and then bending each a thousand times and see what happens.

I bought stranded for the couple snakes I built because it was the only thing available from Monoprice when I needed a pile of cable, and so far so good after nearly two years of periodic use indoors and outdoors for the 150', indoors only for the 250'.

There is an issue in that the measured standard ("meeting the spec") for stranded is different than for solid so stranded will fail its test much more often than solid will. HOWEVER, stranded is intended for patch cords ("patch" in their terminology) connecting to long runs of solid ("channel" in the terminology) which are the main runs through conduit or walls or whatever to connect gear together. In other words, the "Patch" standard assumes whatever existing deficiencies are in the channel you are connecting to (which had to meet a lower spec already), so the patch cord has to be damn near perfect to connect to the imperfect channel.

In my portable console use, I am not connecting to any built in channel but my stranded cable is actually the channel (my snake, in other words) so that it really only needs to meet the "channel" spec. This is mentioned in the second video connected to the workshop that I posted. In that video (with Kurt), I am not quite clear on the concept yet and ask several questions that are not quite worded correctly and get answers that are just off the mark until we finally stumble upon the concept that it's possible to have a stranded cable that is used as a channel and therefore only needs to meet the channel spec.

I think that's maybe why people denigrate stranded cable, because it so often fails the certification test, which, again, is vastly more strict than for solid cable used as a channel. My posts are long enough itt without spontaneously discussing what that certification test means and how to know if your stuff will pass it, absent someone saying they want to know.

Steve raised an issue in one of the videos about the stranded cable moving around within the teeth of the RJ-45 connector and failing that way, and I'll reserve judgement on its accuracy. He certainly has more experience than I do, so there's that, but there are electrical connections made to stranded cable all the time without problems, so there's that, too.
 
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Re: Cable

All I can say is Klark Teknik basically invented AES50, they sell snakes with the stranded type of shielded cable, I believe it's the same for the Behringer Cat5E-50M.They must feel confident it will do the job. The Behringer uses dual shielded, dual jacketed neutrik Etherflex cable, Neutrik Ethercon ends Hirose shielded rj45's.Canare cable is also very very good. Great for patch cables and more. I have several runs of solid and basically hate it...it works but it's not fun to work with. My best guess is quality of each component of both cable itself and the connecting pieces is probably the most important aspect.rather than strand or no strand, at least for our digital audio purposes. However I'm not an expert, far from it.

About the Etherflex cable...

"The additional shield and foil shielding protects against EMI and RFI. The stranded cores allow repeated flexing, dramatically increasing reliability, robustness and prolonging the life of the cable"

"Shielded Foil Twisted Pair (SFTP) cable is certified to CAT5e and EtherSound tested."
 
Re: Cable

cary begans said:
All I can say is Klark Teknik basically invented AES50
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Not quite, and not something that MG claims. AES50 is an outgrowth of SuperMAC which was developed by Sony Pro Audio Oxford and licensed to Midas for the XL8. Sony also developed HyperMAC which is a higher speed version, which was also licensed to Midas. In 2007 KT purchased both technologies from Sony.

Mac
 
Re: Cable

I was looking around for good cable to buy for ae50, and in another forum came across someone highly recommending GEPCO CT504HD http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/network/4pr_cat5Eheavyduty_M.htm. This is for an install, where the stage box will not be moved around, the cat5 cable will be covered by a cable guard, and there is an Ethercon panel at the stage an at the sound booth with the cat5 run through a conduit in the walls.

I ordered the GEPCO cable, and guess I should have done my research better, because there isn't a foil shield at all, although the cable is quite thick and should withstand abuse well. I was considering getting different shielded cable, but have reconsidered since discovering that the Ethercon panels on the stage and at the sound booth are connected with plain UTP cat5 between them, so without re-running the house, I'm not sure shielded cable connecting the stage box to the panel will make a difference. Or will it?

So far, I have not had any issues, but I don't know if I've just been lucky.

Given this setup, does anyone have suggestions on how to best safeguard against dropouts, etc?

Darron
 
Re: Cable

mackerr said:
Not quite, and not something that MG claims. AES50 is an outgrowth of SuperMAC which was developed by Sony Pro Audio Oxford and licensed to Midas for the XL8. Sony also developed HyperMAC which is a higher speed version, which was also licensed to Midas. In 2007 KT purchased both technologies from Sony.

Mac
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What Mac said.

Since you're posting here, Mac, can you please talk about the little gizmo I bought when you said you were going to get one which gives a seemingly adequate indication that a tested CAT cable passes or fails the Cat5-6 specifications? I've been using mine and it's caught a couple failures and also said that the cables I'm building pass CAT5e and approach CAT6 (Channel!), so that's been nice.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000J157WQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

There is some kind of dispute between Fluke and Byte Brothers/Triplett about whether what the latter does really counts as "Certification", which is why I used the weasel words to describe what it does. For my purposes, having an indicator that a cable is good and a definitive indicator that it's bad is plenty good enough, since there's no way I can justify the $11,000+++ definitive measurement tool.

Thanks!
 
Re: Cable

Darron Jeans said:
I was looking around for good cable to buy for ae50, and in another forum came across someone highly recommending GEPCO CT504HD http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/network/4pr_cat5Eheavyduty_M.htm. This is for an install, where the stage box will not be moved around, the cat5 cable will be covered by a cable guard, and there is an Ethercon panel at the stage an at the sound booth with the cat5 run through a conduit in the walls.

I ordered the GEPCO cable, and guess I should have done my research better, because there isn't a foil shield at all, although the cable is quite thick and should withstand abuse well. I was considering getting different shielded cable, but have reconsidered since discovering that the Ethercon panels on the stage and at the sound booth are connected with plain UTP cat5 between them, so without re-running the house, I'm not sure shielded cable connecting the stage box to the panel will make a difference. Or will it?

So far, I have not had any issues, but I don't know if I've just been lucky.

Given this setup, does anyone have suggestions on how to best safeguard against dropouts, etc?

Darron
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I am in the camp that says you've been lucky.

I am also in your camp in that I bought a bunch of that when I first got my X32's, which was before we definitively learned we needed STP (now I know we need to say FTP to be clear). That cable is a dream to handle and apparently take abuse. I love how the four pairs in each of the four cables is embedded in some kind of plastic so they don't move in relation to each other when pinched and squeezed, which should eliminate the problem I had that caused the workshop, while creating a new one every time there's an Electrostatic Discharge (ESD).

In my case, I've never used it and have no plans to.

In your case, I think you need to replace the entire cable runs in order to be immune from ESD problems. If you don't do that, you might as well use the Gepco as it makes you no worse off.

In my tests, the entire run needed to be replaced by FTP in order to avoid ESD.

You might try using FTP to get to the conduit on both ends of the run, and being sure that the shells of the panel mount Ethercons connect to the conduit. Perhaps you can synthesize an FTP for the channel (in wall part). If you can, then your Gepco is as useless as mine.

Couple bad choices, eh?
 
Re: Cable

mackerr said:
Not quite, and not something that MG claims. AES50 is an outgrowth of SuperMAC which was developed by Sony Pro Audio Oxford and licensed to Midas for the XL8. Sony also developed HyperMAC which is a higher speed version, which was also licensed to Midas. In 2007 KT purchased both technologies from Sony. Mac
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I did say 'pretty much', but was not the main point anyway. These places are promoting stranded cable products and touting it to be the better option (see the bottom part of my post) being at least among the major players in the field-we maybe would agree-who could have just as easily used solid core if it were better, they did not. They have more than a little at stake when offering a cable up to do the best job with the other types of products they make.That to me speaks volumns. I still own several runs of ethercon clad solid core shielded cable, I just cant bear to take it apart because of the work involved in making it to start with, but it will very likely never be used again. I'm of the mind to happily let anyone use what they think best, just explaining my choices and why.
 
Re: Cable

I'm about to purchase the Behringer NCAT5E50M snake for a permanent install, possibly installing in an existing overhead 2" conduit originally used by one of our old analog snakes. I'm worried about ESD issues by being in the overhead conduit, which is about 1' below a metal roof.

1) Should I explore an alternate path for the digital snake so that it's not near the metal roof?

2) Should I build my own cable from STP/FTP CAT6 instead of using Behringer's NCAT5E50M? If so, any pointers on the Ethercon terminations?

Bill
 
Re: Cable

Bill Glick said:
I'm about to purchase the Behringer NCAT5E50M snake for a permanent install, possibly installing in an existing overhead 2" conduit originally used by one of our old analog snakes. I'm worried about ESD issues by being in the overhead conduit, which is about 1' below a metal roof.

1) Should I explore an alternate path for the digital snake so that it's not near the metal roof?

2) Should I build my own cable from STP/FTP CAT6 instead of using Behringer's NCAT5E50M? If so, any pointers on the Ethercon terminations?

Bill
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I don't think the roof will be that big of a deal at all. The purpose of these kinds of cables is to protect against stuff of that nature and more. It's built to reject ESD, RFI and EMI. The Behringer cable is really Neutrik Etherflex and is a GREAT cable, Neutrik ethercons and Hirose rj45;s as well, all top quality stuff. Great choice and about as good a buy for cable you will find, even if you deconstruct and use it for other runs. Building is a possible alternate but LOTS of work and you still would need all of the above parts to construct, if you factor in the cost of all parts and your labor, its not so great a deal, fun, educational yes, personal satisfaction, yes. BUT. I'ld say you made an excellent choice.
 
Re: Cable

Tim Padrick said:
We (day job) have been using the Gepco for year or two with no troubles, but the Midas N+1 might have something to do with that?
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Interesting. I just watched a video about that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T1mq3eFWbw , since I'd never heard of it.

So you are using 3 Ethercon lines for your console (assuming the 48 channel)?

My friend has a Pro 3 at work and only uses 2 Ethercon cables. We connected UTP to it and zapping the stage box with the BBQ starter disrupted the sync. FTP was fine, no effect from zapping.

This sounds like if he had 3 lines going then there might be no effect from the zapping using UTP. That would be an awesome use of this Gepco, as it is really nice to handle (in my limited experience) and like I said, it should be very resistant to the kind of handling noise described at our workshop.

Thanks, Tim!

Do you have a sparker? This is the one I got

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-57533-O...r=8-1&keywords=electric+bbq+sparker+C+battery

It's nice because the piezo ones don't seem to be a reliable spark while this one sparks as long as your finger is on the trigger. You need to remove the metal surround at the end that the spark goes to and put some tape there so it wants to go to whatever you put the tip near rather than back to itself. You would help science if you got one and tested your rig's resistance to ESD, as well as learning to what degree you are open to having your show momentarily stop when somebody touches the console after shuffling their feet in the wool rug on a low humidity day.
 
Re: Cable

Would be great if that did negate the absolute need for shielded cable.The Gepco is quit nice save for that little part. The image of 2 redundant non shielded cables blissfully shorting out first one then the other then one then the other back and forth and yet never dropping the signal is heartening thought! Of course one would have to own an N+1 to enjoy such security! Probably only a few $ right?:)~:)~:smile:
 
Re: iPad app fix?

John Chiara said:
Is there going to be a fix for the glitches in the new iPad app....has a bad occurrence last night caused by hesitation in the app.
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Hi John,

Not exactly sure what you mean by 'a bad occurrence' but please feel free to email us at [email protected] and we can take a look through what issues you are having and find a solution.

Patrick Karv
Specialist
Music Group
 
Re: Cable

cary begans said:
Would be great if that did negate the absolute need for shielded cable.The Gepco is quit nice save for that little part. The image of 2 redundant non shielded cables blissfully shorting out first one then the other then one then the other back and forth and yet never dropping the signal is heartening thought! Of course one would have to own an N+1 to enjoy such security! Probably only a few $ right?:)~:)~:smile:
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Talked to my friend with the Pro 3 and they do not have the cards to do the N + 1, so no experience there. Doesn't sound like the N + 1 is applicable to our X32's, though, absent some stand-alone technology. At that point it must be cheaper to get FTP....
 
Re: Cable

Oh, and my friend found a Live Audio Board post I hadn't seen in which a Midas user reported probems with ESD and unshielded cable

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,152293.0.html

with a video very similar to Brian Wynn's which showed the problem in the X32.

Midas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCvQ3ECNgM

X32: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nWF_0agjk&autoplay=1&app=desktop

The Midas problem was reported solved by going to FTP with Ethercons after Robert Lofgren replied to his thread with a link to Brian's videos.

The other interesting aspect to the thread was that a Midas guy replied and indicated that although they had heard about a similar problem from one user, that didn't seem to count as significant so they were still good with people using UTP.

He and I thought that was notable for the wrong reasons.
 
Re: Cable

Darron Jeans said:
Given this setup, does anyone have suggestions on how to best safeguard against dropouts, etc?

Darron
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If it isn't possible to have continuity in the aes50 ground, you should try to have chassis to chassis ground as that will take care of build-up of static potential and ground potential differences.
 
Re: Cable

Dan Mortensen said:
The other interesting aspect to the thread was that a Midas guy replied and indicated that although they had heard about a similar problem from one user, that didn't seem to count as significant so they were still good with people using UTP.
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There are supposedly occurrences of static-related dropouts that has been solved by going to fibre. I can't verify these occurrences and I hesitate to quote any particular sound company, but I'm sure it's not something I've dreamed. I think one of the occurrences was in one of the showcase examples given in the aes50 'brochure' "AES50 – Applications in Live Concert Sound"
 
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